Spartans the Model for the Mandalorians?

[Omelette]

I always veiwed Mandalorians as more Romans with some Norsemen qualities to be honest.

 

Tactically the closest comparision would be to the old Roman Empire.

Following one grand leader who had to prove their ability in war, ect. (Ceaser era).

 

After they are defeated and split up they become more nomadic like Vikings. Seperate clans following the strongest of their specific clan.

 

That's what I thought.

 

Since the Romans did evolve off the Spartan form of warfare (not to mention improve the phalanx and hop-like warfare in general) I always thought that the Mandalorians were like the next step in evolution, leading them to be what they are today. I just saw more Roman characteristics in the Mandalorians than simply a specific profession society. When Mandalore gives his little speech and such, you can see the "camera" panning over the various other jobs. They have technicians, etc.

 

I just see them as Romans, IMO. But I just like reading this thread. It's very interesting.

[SilentScope001]

I saw the Mandalorians more as...barbarians, as seen through the eyes of civilization.

 

Spartans are not barbarians, they are a civilized city-state, a militriastic empire. The Spartans had diplomats, they made alliances with Persia, and they formed puppet governments.

 

The Mandalorians are basically people who fight for "honor". If anything, they are based off all the barbaric tribes (Huns, Goths, etc.), with an added layer of the the Sith's idea of competition to justify their fighting. The "honor" thing is just as an after-thought, added by the developers to make you HATE them.

 

After all, the Mandalorians did not invade the Republic to protect themselves. If they did, then Players might sympathize with the warriors, and that should not be allowed at all. No, they invaded because they waned some fun and "honor". This is similar to civilization's view that barbarians attack them only because they want to, and that they are monsters. Never mind that, prehaps in real life, the barbairans are likely fighting not for honor...but the right to live.

 

Since this is a game, they can get rid of this "right to live" struggle, and they have to...otherwise we would think the Mando's as good guys, and we must remember that they AREN'T.

[Purgatorio]

Calling them Barbarians as seen from the eyes of civilization is interesting, since the word comes from the Greeks inability to understand the language and their own arrogance, "We would all be speaking Mandalorian" points to the fear of otherness. The invading hordes of the Mongols Goths and Emos, but they aren't really the invading horde since Coroscant was where they originally came from. They're the same as tribal societies, families become clans and eventually the clans become united under a king.

As for the cultural aspects of warfare and testing themselves coming from the sith... I don't see how it came from the Sith. If it does then what of the Republics expansionist ideals? I see the Republic as an expansionist regime bent on imposing it's ideals on independent systems, so very Sith in form but without the culture of testing itself to gain strength, which is not inherently evil. The system of honor is needed for a society to stay together, if a waring culture has no system to keep it together in times of difficulty it fails. Remember Jagi and Mandalore's teachings on flexibility and opportunism, that opportunism is not the Sith stab someone in the back to take their position/Roman political opportunism amongst Senators, and criminals.... same thing, but more tactical creativity as in seeing an opertunity for victory and taking it.

I don't know if they have the same Spartanesque sexual relationships, though it's not unheard of for camaraderie to develop into more... intimate relations. (Obligatory )

I think of Mandalorians as a male version of the Amazons in Xena, but besides the obvious gender difference they would worship Ares in place of Artemis. But I am weired.

[SilentScope001]

As for the cultural aspects of warfare and testing themselves coming from the sith... I don't see how it came from the Sith.

 

I see it as being inspired by the Sith. The developers were bored, and thought: "Hey, let use parts of the Sith ideology to help buff the Mandos". And hence, "honor" comes in. Thinking of the OOC reasons for their existence.

 

I see the Republic as an expansionist regime bent on imposing it's ideals on independent systems, so very Sith in form but without the culture of testing itself to gain strength, which is not inherently evil.

 

It could easily be compared to the United Nations and the European Union, both organizations wanting as many nations/planets as possible to join it, but otherwise...the UN and the EU are quite weak.

 

The system of honor is needed for a society to stay together, if a waring culture has no system to keep it together in times of difficulty it fails. Remember Jagi and Mandalore's teachings on flexibility and opportunism, that opportunism is not the Sith stab someone in the back to take their position/Roman political opportunism amongst Senators, and criminals.... same thing, but more tactical creativity as in seeing an opertunity for victory and taking it.

 

Ah, another possiblity...prehaps it was an idea that is tied directly to the Mandlorian's war-like efforts. This is pretty good.

[DAWUSS]

I'm sure 300 Mandalorians could outdo 1 million Echani...

[Darth Mortis]

Has everyone missed that the Manolorians pre-date KOTOR by about 20 years? They first came to light (were created) around the time of Empire Strikes Back, and then for Boba-Fett's background. (Lucas seems to like a lot of background logic to explain why things look like they do in the films. For example the red spots on Padme's face as the queen in TPM are meant to be symbolic of some sort of tragagy in Naboo's history-something that is never even hinted at during the film). In fact since GL has always had a fair idea of some of the major points in Starwars history they might even pre-date the first film-Although I seriously doubt that they could have been given much more detail than 'Threatened the Republic in the past'.

 

Mandororian 'Culture' is, therefore, a mixture of what was needed for them to be bad guys when first invented, and changes that needed to be made to make it a culture that seemed feasible as they were used more and more. Saying the they were based on any one specific type of Earth Culture will, therefore, run into problems, as no one person would have been responsible for what they have become in KOTOR. It is more likely that GL just discribed them as dangerous warriors that respected strength above all else. Other details would have been invented by whoever was writing a script for them at the time, although GL would ultimatly have to agree to any such inventions for them to become Cannon, it would be wrong to say he invented everything about them.

 

It is quite possible that the Spartans were an influence for some of Mandolorian culture, but the way Mandolorians sought honorable combat one on one also has hints of the Celtic and Gothic cultures as well. I would say that they used whatever aspects of accient cultures they liked and seemed to fit at the time.

[metadigital]

Spartans were the first to acutally use tactics. their style of warfare was brand new. As was (to the best of our knowlege) their lifestyle of warfare.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But surely there was a tribe that specifically focused on warfare before the civilisation of the spartans. they might have been the first big nation to do it, but the idea wasn't new i am sure.

Not that we have any records of, no.

 

Didn't Spartans have a lot of homosexual soldiers in their ranks to create a bond between them, to make them more effective in battle? Thought I saw this mentioned on the History Channel.

You are thinking of the Sacred Band, which was the elite forces from (one of!) the Spartan's mortal enemies, the Thebans. They were the first to beat the Spartans EVER in hoplite warfare (the Battle of Leuctra).

[Sturm]

Whoever said that the Romans evolved off the Spartans are wrong

And seriously, some of you people need to learn your history...

[SteveThaiBinh]

Moving to the Star Wars universe forum...

[Xard]

Whoever said that the Romans evolved off the Spartans are wrong

And seriously, some of you people need to learn your history...

 

Ahahaha!

 

Who? Where?

[Sturm]

I always veiwed Mandalorians as more Romans with some Norsemen qualities to be honest.

 

Tactically the closest comparision would be to the old Roman Empire.

Following one grand leader who had to prove their ability in war, ect. (Ceaser era).

 

After they are defeated and split up they become more nomadic like Vikings. Seperate clans following the strongest of their specific clan.

 

That's what I thought.

 

Since the Romans did evolve off the Spartan form of warfare (not to mention improve the phalanx and hop-like warfare in general) I always thought that the Mandalorians were like the next step in evolution, leading them to be what they are today. I just saw more Roman characteristics in the Mandalorians than simply a specific profession society. When Mandalore gives his little speech and such, you can see the "camera" panning over the various other jobs. They have technicians, etc.

 

I just see them as Romans, IMO. But I just like reading this thread. It's very interesting.

 

QFE

 

Anyways, the Romans had completely different formations to the phalanx, considering that the Romans lacked in spears in the early years and were based on cohorts consisting of swords and javelin based combat. The Phalanx was spears and only spears with the first 3-4 rows of men with their spears out horizontially, and the next row just higher.. and so on so it formed like a porcupine. Anyways to think off the top of my head one of the Roman formations without acctually researching it, because its late and I cbf, the Testudo was nothing like the Phalanx.

 

Considering that the Spartans played their role about 500-200 years before the Romans, and the Romans were believed to been decendants from those at ancient Troy, not Sparta.

 

Everyone now is like ZOMG SPARTANS I WANA 6 PACK AND PWN SOME PERSIANS COS I SAW 300! LAWL!!11one

 

Edit: Anyways, Mustipicon? (I certainly do hope I spelt his name right, or ill be put to shame) pwns you all with his ancient history knowledge, ah yes good old Rome Total War

 

ps. I got a leet Spartan skin mod so they dont just have those lousy red robes

Edited April 19, 2007 by Sturm

[Darth Mortis]

Anyways, the Romans had completely different formations to the phalanx, considering that the Romans lacked in spears in the early years and were based on cohorts consisting of swords and javelin based combat. The Phalanx was spears and only spears with the first 3-4 rows of men with their spears out horizontially, and the next row just higher.. and so on so it formed like a porcupine. Anyways to think off the top of my head one of the Roman formations without acctually researching it, because its late and I cbf, the Testudo was nothing like the Phalanx.

 

The phalanx did include shields (heavy round shields) not just long spears. Likewise the Romans also used spears and round shields at points in their history. The romans altered their tactics and equipment over time-the most 'common' visual image of a roman soldier with a long rectangular shield and a throwing spear comes from the later periods, long after the Spartians were gone.

 

My guess is that the Roman fasination for the Spartains probably stems from having their backsides kicked by them in battle. The Romans didn't win every battle against the Greeks, I think the Spartains were one of the hardest of the greek city states to subjue. Plus the Romans had a general interest in Greek culture and history that wasn't just confined to the Spartains-Athens was also held in high regard, but for different reasons.

[Xard]

I always veiwed Mandalorians as more Romans with some Norsemen qualities to be honest.

 

Tactically the closest comparision would be to the old Roman Empire.

Following one grand leader who had to prove their ability in war, ect. (Ceaser era).

 

After they are defeated and split up they become more nomadic like Vikings. Seperate clans following the strongest of their specific clan.

 

That's what I thought.

 

Since the Romans did evolve off the Spartan form of warfare (not to mention improve the phalanx and hop-like warfare in general) I always thought that the Mandalorians were like the next step in evolution, leading them to be what they are today. I just saw more Roman characteristics in the Mandalorians than simply a specific profession society. When Mandalore gives his little speech and such, you can see the "camera" panning over the various other jobs. They have technicians, etc.

 

I just see them as Romans, IMO. But I just like reading this thread. It's very interesting.

 

QFE

 

Anyways, the Romans had completely different formations to the phalanx, considering that the Romans lacked in spears in the early years and were based on cohorts consisting of swords and javelin based combat. The Phalanx was spears and only spears with the first 3-4 rows of men with their spears out horizontially, and the next row just higher.. and so on so it formed like a porcupine. Anyways to think off the top of my head one of the Roman formations without acctually researching it, because its late and I cbf, the Testudo was nothing like the Phalanx.

 

Considering that the Spartans played their role about 500-200 years before the Romans, and the Romans were believed to been decendants from those at ancient Troy, not Sparta.

 

Everyone now is like ZOMG SPARTANS I WANA 6 PACK AND PWN SOME PERSIANS COS I SAW 300! LAWL!!11one

 

Edit: Anyways, Mustipicon? (I certainly do hope I spelt his name right, or ill be put to shame) pwns you all with his ancient history knowledge, ah yes good old Rome Total War

 

ps. I got a leet Spartan skin mod so they dont just have those lousy red robes

 

You really should download Rome Total Realism Mod - pure blast to play

[DAWUSS]

I don't think Mandos ever said:

 

 

THIS IS MANDALORE!!!!

[Musopticon?]

Anyways, the Romans had completely different formations to the phalanx, considering that the Romans lacked in spears in the early years and were based on cohorts consisting of swords and javelin based combat. The Phalanx was spears and only spears with the first 3-4 rows of men with their spears out horizontially, and the next row just higher.. and so on so it formed like a porcupine. Anyways to think off the top of my head one of the Roman formations without acctually researching it, because its late and I cbf, the Testudo was nothing like the Phalanx.

 

The phalanx did include shields (heavy round shields) not just long spears. Likewise the Romans also used spears and round shields at points in their history. The romans altered their tactics and equipment over time-the most 'common' visual image of a roman soldier with a long rectangular shield and a throwing spear comes from the later periods, long after the Spartians were gone.

 

My guess is that the Roman fasination for the Spartains probably stems from having their backsides kicked by them in battle. The Romans didn't win every battle against the Greeks, I think the Spartains were one of the hardest of the greek city states to subjue. Plus the Romans had a general interest in Greek culture and history that wasn't just confined to the Spartains-Athens was also held in high regard, but for different reasons.

lol, what?

 

Romans didn't build their tactics on phalanx, they built them on the weak points of phalanx warfare, which were the lack of mobility, archaic equipment, the inability to accept King Phillip's(of Makedonia) phalanx reform(hammer and anvil), bad adaptability and that it was almost strictly a defensive tactics. Phalanx tactics were supposed to the most powerful form of warfare after Alexander's conquest of almost all known civilized world(330 bc), but the truth was that once Romans reached Greece(around 120 bc IIRC), the role of cavalry had been vastly underestimated and almost dropped, so a regular tactic was to just roll out and spike the enemy to death while the odd cannon fodder ranged infantry(I think they were called pyloi) did what they could. Romans used a heavily ordered manipula formation to force hoplitai and phalangitai formations to broke ranks and superior technology to crush the poor lamellar-encased supposed "heavy troops", sweltering in their archaic hoplite gear. When Rome reached Sparta, the conquest didn't differ all that much. Although the exact history passages escape me.

 

Before actually entering Greece, Rome had been under Greek influence ever since the city was built, long before they formed an actual identity or conquered anything. Italy had several Hellenic city states(like Tarento and Croton for instance) and it was from their influetic trade and culture that Rome gained their first vestiges of power. Sparta and Athens weren't nearly as influental as those Italian states, but they did play a part in arts and such. Not to mention being important as trendsetters after a while. Of course Romans idolised Spartans for their rigour, everyone did, but they saw them like immortal heroes, inspired by thei discipline, but unamoured by their tactics. First Roman armies actually resembled phalanx warfare very much, however, and Italian phalanx wasn't a rare sight. It was as ubiquitous there as in Megale Hellas, but it didn't take that long for Romans to form their own tactics and equipment. Philip's reform did reach Italia as well, but the actual battles, or accounts of them, between Roman and strict Successor(of Alexander) armies in Italy were almost nonexistant. Pyrrhus, king of Epeiros, did use Successor tactics(bolstered with his elephants) and he did really well, considering everyone else had bitten the dust in Italy, but he only won that one infamous battle. Then it was all a downfall for the Hellenic states. And the rest of the world, hehhee.

 

You mentioned the "roman soldier with a long rectangular shield and a throwing spear", and that was actually not such a late invention, they just didn't form all of the base infantry until the Marian reforms around 1st century bc. Testudo on the other hand is almost a misconception, it wasn't nearly as overused as everyone seems to think and it wasn't even devised until near 1st century ad. The roman manipuli however, did resemble phalanx in the way that it was formed of ordered ranks of infantry side by side, advancing shields in front. That's where the similarities end, however, since the manipuli was a construction of mobile cohorts in checkerboard formation that could step back from the frontline and do all kinds of nasty maneuvers, while the phalanx was locked in combat the second they hit the enemy. The later form of shieldwall used widely in all of Roman Europe is actually what most people are after when they think Roman warfare. This was actually nicely portrayed in 300 too. The basic principle was that the frontlines would lock shields and stab each other to death over them. Very powerful, but the Romans had no need for it until nearly the end of the empire. Manipula was just too good, although it was dependent on the discipline of the armies in Republican and Imperial eras, discipline that the later imitations of those famous legions(Ceasar, Trajanus and Aurelius anyone?) lacked. Cue the Gothic horde in Rome.

 

To not base this whole thing on a strawhouse about to burst in flames(I haven't actually checked this stuff in ages), I suggest reading up on all this, it's interesting and gives you a nice perspective to ancient legends and mythic battles as well.

 

Man, can I ramble.

[Darth_Nihlus]

Man, can I ramble.

 

but its interesting

[Sturm]

Anyways, the Romans had completely different formations to the phalanx, considering that the Romans lacked in spears in the early years and were based on cohorts consisting of swords and javelin based combat. The Phalanx was spears and only spears with the first 3-4 rows of men with their spears out horizontially, and the next row just higher.. and so on so it formed like a porcupine. Anyways to think off the top of my head one of the Roman formations without acctually researching it, because its late and I cbf, the Testudo was nothing like the Phalanx.

 

The phalanx did include shields (heavy round shields) not just long spears. Likewise the Romans also used spears and round shields at points in their history. The romans altered their tactics and equipment over time-the most 'common' visual image of a roman soldier with a long rectangular shield and a throwing spear comes from the later periods, long after the Spartians were gone.

 

My guess is that the Roman fasination for the Spartains probably stems from having their backsides kicked by them in battle. The Romans didn't win every battle against the Greeks, I think the Spartains were one of the hardest of the greek city states to subjue. Plus the Romans had a general interest in Greek culture and history that wasn't just confined to the Spartains-Athens was also held in high regard, but for different reasons.

 

Acctually, the Romans with the large square shields were first, it was about 200BC that the Romans had been using it, and around 300AD they had changed their design to a rounder smaller shield, an oblong shape.

 

Ps. I am currently playing Barbarian Invasion, sigh... The Romans dont really have any good units whatsoever and therefore I have been trying to play as a sustainable Barbarian race, many arent the best are you get raided by hordes or just lack the infantry, so I am going quite well at the moment with the Franks and declared war on the Romans, I am on the doorstep of Rome itself with all the neighboring settlements owned by yours truely.

 

Pps. Xard can you give me a link, this mod sounds interesting

[Musopticon?]

Try the Vandals if you get the change. Funny folks, and the Roman Spain is interesting.

[Sturm]

I just passed it as the Franks, IMO they are the strongest. One of their weakest backbone troops are Axe Heerbann, and it only gets better from there, from there it goes to Sword Heerbann, and finally Fransisca Heerbann, its good because you have decent support and back up infantry, just spam swordsmen and fransisca because they match the Cominstes (sp) and Auxillia Pallinta (sp, lol) I believe Romans lack the infantry units, all they had in their cities were Peasants, come on, I conquered Rome with Swordsmen and Axemen, Rome only had peasants and a couple of Cominstes.

 

The Vandals just annoyed me, and they were on my list to choose from at the beginning due to their heavy infantry and cavalry. I just dont like the idea of hordes in Barbarian Invasion because its almost impossible to defeat them, well automatically. Personally I just prefer normal Rome, there is much more variety and when I asked my friend if they Greeks were in it, and he said no I almost refused to play the game

[Musopticon?]

There's a mod called Invasio Barbarorum, which effectively converts Barbarian Invasion into a full game. It's professional quality, super hard and incredibly detailed, but the best thing is probably that it really makes barbarians unique. Instead of each faction just having a couple of special units, now everyone has unique rosters. Vandals and Franks have killer rosters and they are like the best reason to play. Not to mention Romano-British being playable. And Perso-Armenians. And White Huns, that actually buddhists.

[Masta Revan]

The more i read this the more i want to watch 300! Full of super HOT guys. Yes it would be nice if Mandalorians were based off of them.mmmmmmm!

[metadigital]

That's exactly the state to be in to see 300.

[Omelette]

That's exactly the state to be in to see 300.

Hell, when I saw the 300 trailers, all I was focusing on was the man's chest. Excuse me, the many mens' chests. I'm not ashamed to say that I went to see it for the men in bikinis, but the blood and fighting was a nice bonus. So, it's a great movie for all you ladies out there.

[metadigital]

It was certainly a very astute artistic decision to have the Spartan soldiers appear without a cuirass ...

[Pidesco]

I also wondered how they managed to run about in the battlefield without tripping on their own long ass capes.