No more cloth for me.

julianw · November 21, 2005

unless she wanted to convert to Christianity I would probably convert to Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though I'd like to think for a religious man, his love for God should come before his love for everything else because that is the foundation of his entire being. So if either of you two would like to convert, I would hope it's due to the result of the union of you two not so that your union would be the result. Just some friendly advice. :geek:

Darth Launch · November 21, 2005

She's just a friend for now, but there seem to be some pretty strong signs of attraction.

She thinks it would work just fine (not with me, as I used the example of my Aunt and Uncle to bring it up), I do not, and if things progressed far enough, unless she wanted to convert to Christianity I would probably convert to Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a good sign that she thinks things will be fine... I have plenty of muslim girl friends (muslims are plentiful in Manchester) and most of them have been out with a non-muslim before... in some of the cases things didn't work out because of the differences in faith affecting things :geek:

You should also remember that neither of you are your Aunt or Uncle too

I do think it's very cute that you'd be willing to convert to Islam for her... but I don't think it would be wise for you to do so simply because you want to be with her... you should only convert for the right reason and that's because you genuinely have a desire to change faith

Another thing you should you remember... you're 18! I'm 21 and I don't plan on thinking about marriage until I'm much older! Slow down! You may love this girl a lot and she may return the feelings but you really still shouldn't be thinking so far ahead

Dark Moth · November 21, 2005

unless she wanted to convert to Christianity I would probably convert to Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though I'd like to think for a religious man, his love for God should come before his love for everything else because that is the foundation of his entire being. So if either of you two would like to convert, I would hope it's due to the result of the union of you two not so that your union would be the result. Just some friendly advice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Julianw and DL make good points.

That would prove a problem for me. As much as I love women , I would not convert to a different religion for a woman. At most, I would convert to a different denomination of Christianity. Should I ever convert to a different religion, it'd be due to a major discontent with my own faith or a sudden loss in the belief of God. Ask yourself: "Who is more important to me: God, or girlfriend?"

I wouldn't have any problem marrying a woman of a different faith, but as CoF has pointed out, the only problem there would be the question of children being raised in a divided environment. Not always a good combo. :geek:

I unfortunately don't have the luxury of knowing a lot of Muslims. They are a rarity around where I live. If it weren't for everything going on in current events today sparking religious debate (Israel vs Palestine, U.S. vs Terror), I'm sure we'd see a lot more people getting along in the home front.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Mothman

Surreptishus · November 22, 2005

See, but the choice about not going into the ministry was very much less about this relationship and more about general problems with doctrine, and disbelief in myself.

The thing just seemed to evolve into a relationship thread the moment I mentioned a woman even inspired these thoughts a little.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally i blame you for that. :geek: "

Now with regards to the man of the cloth thing, can't you just be undecided on those questions and instead do what you intend to as a minister?

What is the role of a minister? Is it just to quote scripture every Sunday? I thought it was a guidance counsellor position. Do you want to change the church form with in or is it helping directly that appeals to you.

Surreptishus · November 22, 2005

I have plenty of muslim girl friends (muslims are plentiful in Manchester) and most of them have been out with a non-muslim before...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, i wonder how many of those trysts were with the knowledge of their parents. :geek: "

Laozi · November 22, 2005

I would think your crisis of faith would have more to do with the fact that you're 18ish more than anything

Child of Flame · November 22, 2005

See, but the choice about not going into the ministry was very much less about this relationship and more about general problems with doctrine, and disbelief in myself.

The thing just seemed to evolve into a relationship thread the moment I mentioned a woman even inspired these thoughts a little.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally i blame you for that. "

Now with regards to the man of the cloth thing, can't you just be undecided on those questions and instead do what you intend to as a minister?

What is the role of a minister? Is it just to quote scripture every Sunday? I thought it was a guidance counsellor position. Do you want to change the church form with in or is it helping directly that appeals to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um, it is kind of both.

As a minister, responsibilities would encompany tending to the flock, sermons, a lot of counselling, and helping others.

However I would never feel comfortable teaching something I myself cannot wrap my head around, and as much as I would like to do both of the things in your last sentence, I cannot teach something I don't understand.

Also lack of faith.

Basically, at the moment, I feel more of a Deist (as Baley suggested), than a baptized Christian.

ShadowPaladin V1.0 · November 22, 2005

Basically, at the moment, I feel more of a Deist (as Baley suggested), than a baptized Christian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you still believe in the existence of god(s) but you have lost faith in how the church is supposed to bring you closer to them ?

Wouldnt worry about it. Thats why people make up all these alternate religions (it's called having your cake and eating it).

Think of it as them failing you rather than you failing them , it will make you feel better.

Calax · November 22, 2005

If you were to raise the children in a mixed religion society, please don't force them into one religion or another. My History of World Religions class had a girl who had been muslim but had converted to christianity. Thus she felt it was right to say that as a muslim she was wallowing in sin. If you force your kids to join one religion or another they will probably end up either being like hades and myself (god doesn't exsist or if he does he's one evil man) or being one of the most zelous supporters of that religion (to the point of blowing things up) because they felt they had to because of the fact you are pushing them into the religion.

I've never been baptized. I've never really believed in god or any of that. If I marry a religous girl and we have kids I'm not going to chuch with her every sunday and I certainly won't force my kids to either.

Anyway, right now I'm guessing that you two may get together. Not in bed together just dating together. If things workout bring up the subject. See what she thinks but don't take it so far that things get into a shouting match.

As for a crisis of faith? From what I can tell most people have at least one at some point in their lives. Often times they will have more because a tragedy hits, and somthing like your kid dying before you makes you question "The Plan" or somthing. Ultimatly if you feel it's powerful enough I'd say drop school for a semester and do some soul searching. Try different things out, maybe try going to some other churches for a service. Explore your options. And if you find you don't want to be a priest (which judging by your posts and your preferences doesn't seem like a good idea to me) find a new interest to go to college. or if you don't want to get more book learning for a while don't go to college and get a full time job for a while.

LoneWolf16 · November 22, 2005

So you still believe in the existence of god(s) but you have lost faith in how the church is supposed to bring you closer to them ?

Wouldnt worry about it. Thats why people make up all these alternate religions (it's called having your cake and eating it).

Think of it as them failing you rather than you failing them , it will make you feel better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would he just think of it that way? That's 100% correct. This isn't a personal failing...I thought.

Child of Flame · November 22, 2005

I could use some blind faith right now.

I think too much.

And Calax, I would never do that to my kids, as my Dad (an Ex-Minister) never did that to me. I still enjoy the social element of Church, and the friendships I've forged there, but my heart just doesn't seem to be in it anymore. The crisis of faith is spawned mostly in trying to find my own answers (via reading the Bible, and thinking long and hard), as a sort of 'primer' for the ministry.

My dad never forced me to go to church, though it was a 'family outing' type thing, growing up, but as soon as I didn't feel like I should be there anymore (it happened about the time I hit highschool, and became more socially and politically aware), he just let me stay home if I'd like. He's always encouraged me to seek my own answers, and...well, I've been doing that.

I came back to Church about a year ago, after deciding that it wasn't a problem with the book, it was a problem with the followers and their interpretation of it, but now I'm wondering if it's not both.

Calax · November 22, 2005

I could use some blind faith right now.

I think too much.

And Calax, I would never do that to my kids, as my Dad (an Ex-Minister) never did that to me. I still enjoy the social element of Church, and the friendships I've forged there, but my heart just doesn't seem to be in it anymore. The crisis of faith is spawned mostly in trying to find my own answers (via reading the Bible, and thinking long and hard), as a sort of 'primer' for the ministry.

My dad never forced me to go to church, though it was a 'family outing' type thing, growing up, but as soon as I didn't feel like I should be there anymore (it happened about the time I hit highschool, and became more socially and politically aware), he just let me stay home if I'd like. He's always encouraged me to seek my own answers, and...well, I've been doing that.

I came back to Church about a year ago, after deciding that it wasn't a problem with the book, it was a problem with the followers and their interpretation of it, but now I'm wondering if it's not both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Somtimes one shouldn't look outward for answers. Somtimes the answer isn't in some other worldly force. It seems you feel like you want to change the world. Unfortunatly a single person trying to change the world has about as much chance as an can of mountain dew has of surviving for more than a week in my room. It happens somtimes but not that often and usually those who are the "changers" have a very charismatic and powerful personality.

If you don't find god. Find yourself. Because ultimatly you are your own god.

Dark Moth · November 22, 2005

You know, you could look at it another way. Instead of asking God to show you the path, ask God to give you the wisdom to find the right path. And while you can't change the world, why not try to change what you can? That is how the world changes in the first place. But as for what Calax said, don't become too sure of yourself. Have pride but not foolish pride. To do that would only lead to you having a blind faith in yourself.

ShadowPaladin V1.0 · November 22, 2005

I could use some blind faith right now.

I think too much.

And Calax, I would never do that to my kids, as my Dad (an Ex-Minister) never did that to me. I still enjoy the social element of Church, and the friendships I've forged there, but my heart just doesn't seem to be in it anymore. The crisis of faith is spawned mostly in trying to find my own answers (via reading the Bible, and thinking long and hard), as a sort of 'primer' for the ministry.

My dad never forced me to go to church, though it was a 'family outing' type thing, growing up, but as soon as I didn't feel like I should be there anymore (it happened about the time I hit highschool, and became more socially and politically aware), he just let me stay home if I'd like. He's always encouraged me to seek my own answers, and...well, I've been doing that.

I came back to Church about a year ago, after deciding that it wasn't a problem with the book, it was a problem with the followers and their interpretation of it, but now I'm wondering if it's not both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say that like thinking is a bad thing.

Ok I'm going to be blunt here. What your experiencing is the loss of your "blankie"

Which is why you feel lost.

You have been brought up in a particular way and now your experiencing things that force you to look beyond that into something new. You can fear it, or you can see it as the begining of a new and exiting chapter in your life where you get to do your own thing as your own person. Rather than as the child of others.

ShadowPaladin V1.0 · November 22, 2005

If you don't find god. Find yourself. Because ultimatly you are your own god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Calax thats incredibly profound.

LoneWolf16 · November 22, 2005

If you don't find god. Find yourself. Because ultimatly you are your own god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Calax thats incredibly profound.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed...surprisingly insightful.

Dark Moth · November 22, 2005

If you don't find god. Find yourself. Because ultimatly you are your own god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Calax thats incredibly profound.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But not necessarily true. You are your own God in the sense you control your destiny, but not in the sense that you will know all the answers. Humans are are not the wisest of beings. As socrates pointed out, true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing. While you should trust in yourself, to believe yourself infallible is wrong.

CoF, I don't think God would want you to have blind faith. How would that benefit he/she/it in any way, or yourself for that matter? It'd be like a person reading a book but not even understanding the plot. As said earlier, keep asking yourself questions, because that is the only way to learn. Trust in God and trust in yourself. Also, talk to those around you, family and friends, both inside and outside the church. You will find the answers.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Mothman

Calax · November 22, 2005

Somtimes I amaze myself. And humans are Fallible. But ultimatly it comes down to the fact that only we can really change our own world.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Calax

ShadowPaladin V1.0 · November 22, 2005

But not necessarily true. Humans are are not the wisest of beings. As socrates pointed out, true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing. While you should trust in yourself, to believe yourself infallible is wrong.

CoF, I don't think God would want you to have blind faith. How would that benefit he/she/it in any way, or yourself for that matter? It'd be like a person reading a book but not even understanding the plot. As said earlier, keep asking yourself questions, because that is the only way to learn. Trust in God and trust in yourself. You will find the answers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same could be said for the existence of god. Actually humans are capable of both great wisdom and great folly (probably in equal measure).

Don't see it as any worse than believing you are infallible by proxy quite frankly.

tarna · November 22, 2005

"And you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without."

Calax · November 22, 2005

the belief in god is a desire by man to find somthing bigger than himself to explain all the unexplainable things. Ultimatly god is everything we love about ourselves personified and taken to another level. Admittedly somtimes it seems like there is a god or otherworldly force in action but often I think it's just humanity. While we sleep more actions and reactions take place and more humans die than we ever think possible. I don't believe that there is some giant hand in the sky guideing me. It's me. everything around me is because I did somthing. weather it be born or be a evil son of a gun I caused it to happen. I'm not the center of the universe. But everything that has an effect on me is partially caused by my actions and therefore I'm a god.

Blank · November 22, 2005

the belief in god is a desire by man to find somthing bigger than himself to explain all the unexplainable things. Ultimatly god is everything we love about ourselves personified and taken to another level. Admittedly somtimes it seems like there is a god or otherworldly force in action but often I think it's just humanity. While we sleep more actions and reactions take place and more humans die than we ever think possible. I don't believe that there is some giant hand in the sky guideing me. It's me. everything around me is because I did somthing. weather it be born or be a evil son of a gun I caused it to happen. I'm not the center of the universe. But everything that has an effect on me is partially caused by my actions and therefore I'm a god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you are just changing "god" to mean "one that decides for themselves". it isn't like you have more power than any other person. and if everyone is a "god", then the special power you might have had is nullified by everyone else's equal power. Also, why are you so sure that God is just a figment of mankind's imagination?

I thought Mothman had something good to say,"as for what Calax said, don't become too sure of yourself... To do that would only lead to you having a blind faith in yourself."

tarna, where is that quote from? just wondering.

COF, what are the main things about the scriptures that turn you off to them? i mean, you must have a good reason for believing they are fallible. It seems like coming from a catholic backround you would have more insight on what can become corrupted but is still said to be true (referring to things like compilation of the canon: septuagint, deuterocanon, apocrapha, also things like Popes saying something is true when it is seemingly made up by them like the cruscades and whatever) i am just wondering again.

Sarjahurmaaja. · November 22, 2005

"and if everyone is a 'god', then the special power you might have had is nullified by everyone else's equal power."

No one has the kind of power over someone as they have over themselves. Thus, his 'special power' isn't nullified -- not when it comes to himself.

Calax · November 22, 2005

god is a personal thing. If you believe in him he's what you want him to be. If you don't believe in him he doesn't exsist. That is why there are so many churches in the christian faith. Everybody has their own idea of what god is.

Blank · November 22, 2005

god is a personal thing. If you believe in him he's what you want him to be. If you don't believe in him he doesn't exsist. That is why there are so many churches in the christian faith. Everybody has their own idea of what god is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but i know of many christian denominations that would agree with me that i and they are worshiping the same God

No more cloth for me.

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