TO OBSIDIAN

[marblex]

GRAPHICS:

 

Male playing characters UGLY and mean looking. Don't confuse MACHO with FUGLY. I would have preferred to play as Darth Scion than any of the male sprites.

 

Visas' disturbing lack of teeth made it appear that her tongue would simply overfill her mouth while she spoke. It was creepy and looked wrong.

 

Visas' veil kept disappearing into her shoulders and I wasn't able to change her armor/robe.

 

Kreia: Same, couldn't change robe (visibly)

 

Player: character often disappeared into the cybersphere with no way back into the scene, unless accompanied by other crew members

 

Overall, graphics unfinished, and this was unfortunately, obvious. Long laborious corridors and endless doors does not make up for the similarity of settings and the (ultimate) lack of a cogent story.

 

GAMEPLAY/engine related:

 

Player should be able to level up, check stats, etc. of all crew members whilst on board the Ebon Hawk. The fact that you can outfit them without the ability first to check their stats, etc., is pointless. This flaw in the engine should have been addressed.

 

Journal: Dialogue paths, particularly those with crew members and key NPC's are not maintained, as in Baldur's gate, when you could look back over everything.

 

Workbench: Why is it necessary to leave the workbench in between creating/breaking down and upgrading items? Silly. Fix this, please.

 

Items: The scarce availability of items early on in the game is absurd, whilst, at the end of the game when you are required to play BY YOURSELF, you get every item in the world. There should be more balance and the player should be able to pick advanced armor/weapons and stuff up from the beginning of the game, even if the character has not yet progressed to a level where the item can yet be used. (Like Baldurs Gate).

 

There should be discretionary control over each of the characters/crew whilst aboard the Ebon Hawk. There should be more interaction controlled by the player, between crew members.

 

EBON HAWK:

 

No head? Even the most dedicated Jedi have to use the bathroom. The lack of one on board is disturbing.

 

Why can't the characters sit down on the ship and/or move about?

 

Why can't the player sit in the c-ockpit with the pilot and the crew sit in any of the seats on board?

 

They never use the dorms to sleep and apparenty, don't eat, either, for there is no mess.

 

Cargo hold: empty? Why?

 

Sick bay: Why is there no LAB WORKBENCH in sick bay? Why are there no containers, cabinets, etc. with supplies in them?

 

There should be more computer panels, gizmos, things to do on board than run around. In the prologue, there was a computer panel in the main hold that mysteriously disappeared when the actual game started. The security room at least, now has a function, but there need to be lots more toys on board.

 

Also bummed that HK didn't provide shooting practice.

 

Overall the Ebon Hawk needs even more tweaking and there must be more stuff to do on board and equipment to operate. Bao Dur, in particular needs something to actually work on.

 

SOLO PLAY:

On two different occasions, the player is required to play as Mira

On two different occasions, the player is reqiured to play as T3

Once the player must be Atton

Once the player must be Bao Dur's useless DROID

At the end, the player has to go it alone:

 

1. Having to play Mira twice is pointless, particularly since the second fight with Hanharr makes no sense and there is no explanation for why Kreia "resurrects" him. Mira's fight with him on Malachor is innane and should have been deleted for something with a point. Thumbs down.

 

2. The T3 sequences are OK, but more variety would have been preferred. Eh...

 

3. The Atton sequence is fun, but too short. There should be much more interplay between the Tw'ilek assassins and him -- would have been a good showcase for his happy-go-lucky, flirtatiousness, male-weakness to attractive femaleness interaction. Instead, it's just a little skirmish. Eh...

 

4. Bao Dur's DROID? Clearly, the single most dull, pointless part of the game. This could have put one of the actual crew members to use, but Noooo, instead, its' this dumb droid whose only function is to retrace your steps. GOTO's intervention at the end of this seemingly useless exercise, is baffling and unexplained. Back to the drawing board.

 

5. Going it all alone at the end: Nope, didn't like it. At the end of KOTR I you got to take two Jedis with you. (I wanted Carth -- oh well). But here, all that training your crew and the climactic battle is yours alone. Heavy sigh.

 

Overall, having the opportunity to play as the other crew members would have been much more interesting and functional insofar as moving the plot, to the extent that there still was one at this point in the game.

 

CREW MEMBERS:

 

OVERALL: Except for Kreia, none of the characters is developed sufficiently to really justify light or dark side response from the player. They latch on for their own reasons, most of which we never really know for sure, and to the extent these are revealed, the reasons provided are shallow and unsatisfying. It's apparent that the character development was not terribly high on the list in this story. Too bad the suits wrecked the story too.

 

ATTON: This character needs far more development. Also why can't he know pazzak rules on each of the planets we visit? If anyone would, he should. That would make more fun. (When he and the exile get to know each other a little better, maybe they can play by Nar Shadaa rules. *wink*) Since he is the first (scarecrow) he should be much better developed than the others. Fresh conversation should not terminate just because he's a Jedi, or you've pissed him off or whatever. Voice acting: A++ My preferece: Much Much more Atton. Love this character.

 

KREIA: Clearly the best developed character and the most interesting of any Star Wars story to date. That she was the villian is baffling and made no sense. Voice acting: A++ My preference: Resurrect her!

 

MANDALORE: I LOVED Canderous' constant storytelling in the firt game and really missed it in this one. BOO! Voice Acting: A++ My Preference: More more more Canderous! And take off the friggin armor!

 

BAO DUR: For god's sake give him some gizmos to fiddle with. He has literally nothing to do and just looks silly. He should be wandering around the ship like T3 too. Also, he wouldn't talk to me except to say "Yes General?" after we left Telos so I rarely used him. Voice Acting: A++ My preference: More background on this very interesting character. He seems to have a lot of potential.

 

BAO DUR'S DROID: As players were forced to use this "character" in actual gameplay (apparently it wasn't enough to have it follow B.D. everywhere) I am forced to comment upon it as a character it its own right: Ugh. My preference: watching paint peel. Totally disposable character, given far, far too much screen time.

 

DISCIPLE: PUHLEEZE. This guy annoys the hell out of me. He is B O R I N G to the nth degree, like a Dudley Do-Right who I'd like to slap. I thought it might be fun to sic Mira on him with her Bothan Stunner. Voice Acting: (Assuming he was supposed to sound like a twit: A++) My preference: a date with a cardboard cutout of Dudley DoRight's horse and the ability to kill this character.

 

HK: Wouldn't be the Ebon Hawk without him, though because of the silly "influence" system, he wouldn't talk to me much and I still don't know what I did wrong. I couldn't figure it out and finally chalked it up to a programming glitch when, in a subsequent playthrough, following the same dialogue paths and he became Mr. Chatterbox that I know and love. Kris Tabori is stupendous and I couldn't imagine a KOTR game without him. His disdain for the knock off HKs was worth the price of admission. I would NEVER install the pacifist package (unless I was playing dark side) it would be like killing him. As it is he practically cried when asked not to inquire about assassination. Voice acting: OSCAR My preference: More more more HK and MUCH MUCH earlier in the game.

 

MIRA: Needs to be better developed. Her back story is. . . lacking. Voice acting: B+ (overdone/underdone) My preference: Mission.

 

GOTO: As I did with Jar Jar, I would have prefered that this character be killed as early in the story as possible. Unfortunately, he was not. The reverse wizard of oz thing was amusing but frankly, this is a useless crew member and I would have SO prefered another human or sentient organic meatbag. Voice acting: A My preference: a sharp stick in the eye, or at least, another human companion.

 

T3: My favorite droid, don't change a thing. Voice acting: Boop beep dweet be be boop. My preference: Dwoo beep bop boop bee dee dweet.

 

VISAS: Pointless character, really, she goes all squishy when you save her and devotes her life to you. Kind of a Star Wars Trash Can Man. Voice acting: A+ My preference: Matt Frewer as a Max Headroom--TrashCan Man hybrid stowaway..

 

Overall: Given the size of the game and limitations on story and locations, 10 crew members is too many to really utilize. The droid-human balance is way off, particularly since in one sequence you have to play as Bao Dur's useless droid, instead of one of the THREE DROID CREW MEMBERS. WTF?

 

Moreover, because the game is limited in story and locations, it does not have sufficient replay value to justify playing through repeatedly with different combinations of the 10 crew members on the various missions, principally because your choice is so limited by the mandatory "play as one of the crew" missions.

 

Bottom line: Focus on developing the characters, rather than adding numbers of crew. Yes, the Ebon Hawk is a big ship, and yes, it's nice to see it all filled up. BUT, if you can't develop quality characters worthy of having in the crew, then the crew should be limited to six characters.

 

Which brings me to another beef: THREE person crews are not enough. I want to take three crew members with me. By rights, I should be able to take up to six (ah yes, I pine for Baldur's Gate). This three member party limit also makes having 10 crew members silly.

 

SETTINGS:

 

How about some new landscapes? Telos and Onderon were a start, but the rest of the planets were reruns. Yawwwwn.

 

What happened to the Sandahl residence on Dantooine?

 

What was the deal with the cave within the cave on Korriban? I mean, explain please, particularly why the heck it wasn't there in the last game???? Continuity much?

 

 

STORY:

 

Probably my biggest criticism, though I feel fairly certain this horrendous gutting of what was a promising story with many interesting twists, is more attributable to some idiot suit shoving this game out the door before it was finished than it is the abandonment by its authors. Nevertheless, it is sad, to say the least that pinheads behind desks get to undermine quality for the sake of an overcommercialized, greedy gang of pharisees and money changers. The story, which had great promise, petered out soon after Nar Shadaa. A small tragedy.

 

I frankly still have no idea what happened at Malachor, why the droids zapped one another, why Hanharr was brought back from the dead; what Bao Dur experienced on Duxun, what happened between Kreia and Scion or the other Darth Evil guy, or any of that. All attributable to unfortunate butchering of the story.

 

So, to fix it, how about an expansion pack (Not KOTR3 -- that should be a whole game) to tie up the lose ends?

 

The romances should be romances and not adolescent flirtations. At least Carth and Revan periodically spoke of their feelings for one another -- with one another. The closest thing to an intimate conversation that happens in KOTR2 is Mira suggesting that Atton and the Exile have been "hooking up a power coupling". This dialogue is too childish and frankly, apart from their gender difference and him seeing the exile in her underwear, there is no antecedent even for a casually sexual relationship between Atton and the exile. Yet, this might have been a more interesting development because Atton is so much more interesting than Han Solo.

 

Part of what really worked here is Kreia, who is a fascinating character. Quite frankly, that she was the "baddie" here was confusing, as I always regarded her counsel as wise. I actually tried to play through as a neutral character, but obviously could not gain the benefit of a prestige class for doing so. Yet, Kreia's counsel was never really "good" or "bad"; she neither approved nor disapproved of a thing just because it was "good" or "evil". I thought for instance, the 5 credit donation lecture on Nar Shadaa was very enlightened.

 

But, NONE of the other characters has this depth. They should.

 

Also SORELY missed the character quests for each crew member. This made the story and your relationship with the crew that much more interesting. Talk about influence! Whoo! Would have been a perfect opportunity to gain tons and make it meaningful.

 

JEDI "TRAINING" OK so Luke had to train for years with Ben and Yoda before HE could be a Jedi. The Exile and Revan had to go through the counsel's training and years of tribulations as a Padawan. But . . .your crew? All they have to do is close their eyes and visualize and VOILA! They are JEDI. The only thing missing here were the mitachlorians. At least mandatory additional training sessions should have been provided. The garage or cargo hold in the Ebon Hawk would have been ideal settings for this.

 

The untied ends of this story are worth completing and I hope you do that before the next one.

[Enha_Dyone]

Jeez... :D I like this guy!

[Petay]

Good to know your opinion on the whole of the game, but this should really have been posted in the KotOR 3 suggestions thread in Computer and Console here! .

I know it has criticisms in it too but a lot of it is suggestions too.

 

I do think you make some valid points there though...

[Lord Satasn]

Valid Points are brought up in this post, and well done, but it's nothing I haven't heard before. And it's far too late for any of this.

 

Good vision, lack of execution.

 

My preference: The other 5billion threads that have been done on this subject, before, and better than this one. C-

[marblex]

Good to know your opinion on the whole of the game, but this should really have been posted in the KotOR 3 suggestions thread in Computer and Console here! .

I know it has criticisms in it too but a lot of it is suggestions too.

 

I do think you make some valid points there though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Oh shoot...you know I specificaly looked for a pertinent topical thread, but I guess I missed it. Sorry.

 

I will flog myself.

 

Please accept my apologies.

[Dark Moth]

wow...I almost read that entire post. Agreed on a lot of points except the few. Namely, your liking of Kreia. But of course, anyone who's been on these boards a while knows I dislike Kreia! As for why she becomes the baddie, it's a little complicated. Even I don't fully understand it.

What I do know is that she was a Jedi and a Sith at one point. She fell to the darkside on Malachor, and I don't think she ever truly left the darkside after that. She became a Sith Lord and was betrayed by Sion and Nihilus and exiled from power. She manipulates your character to get revenge on Sion, Nihilus, and the Jedi Masters because she is not strong enough to do it herself. She also wants to destroy the force for some outlandish reason, and you have to fight her because of that.

 

 

BTW, I'd install the pacifist package for HK-47. The game is built so you remove it right after you install it no matter what, and it gives HK-47 a wisdom bonus.

[Krookie]

 

 

Personally I like Disciple though and I'm a guy so it's not just the fangirls.

[Gabrielle]

Wowsers. What a nice well developed overview of the game.

[Plano Skywalker]

hey marblex, you made some really good points.

 

I want to zero in on the Ebon Hawk. For me, immersion is a big part of an RPG experience. Indeed, why don't we see Mandalore in the pistol range or Bao-Dur soldering something on the workbench or Atton and T3 taking turns piloting the ship so Atton can get some rest? Or Mical and Mira playing Dejarik on a hologram board?

 

Or just having people walking around chatting to each other (not talking about cutscreens)?

 

Also, a med lab workbench (as you say) would be good.

 

I also like the idea of sinking money into upgrading the ship (trust me, that would work wonders for immersion). Upgrades could include a Kolto tank in the medlab, a quad laser turret with a Z axis (rather than the pea shooter), a Meditation chamber, and a number of other things.

[darthbass123]

 

 

Personally I like Disciple though and I'm a guy so it's not just the fangirls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and i thought i was the only one.

 

BTW. I'm back. ( In case anyone hasn't noticed. like anyone cares anyway. :"> <_< :">

[Calax]

 

 

Personally I like Disciple though and I'm a guy so it's not just the fangirls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and i thought i was the only one.

 

BTW. I'm back. ( In case anyone hasn't noticed. like anyone cares anyway. :"> <_< :">

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't notice because you changed your avatar. I like the Ideas

[germi91]

You've just made my day. You've pointed out so many things which, i have to admit, are true.

 

When i read about your companions becoming jedis. I was laughing so much! It's so true. It takes them merely... 5 seconds? Maybe more, depending on how long it takes you to push '1' on the keyboard.

 

No need to quote the whole post, makes the page a bit long -Battlewookiee

Edited September 22, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[BicycleOfDeath]

That's quite the list.

[Trin]

Normally I hang around the tech/self help forum, quietly hoping for posts on the Restoration Project being finished and any other mods that improve game play, but this post caught my eye.

 

Marblex – you have succinctly documented every issue that seems to plague this game! A fantastic overview and very articulate! Well done! I think that you have recorded the majority of player’s views of the game totally (or at least in part). You have certainly summarised all my gripes.

 

What would be fantastic is if someone in development and publishing actually read it and took your points on board. Alas with all the posts on this topic I fear the only support you will get is from players, it seems the developers and publisher simply do not care.

 

That’s my 2 penny’s worth, Cheers - T

[BicycleOfDeath]

I agree. Though, if you guys are counting on an official patch... it's right behind the Media patch. I'd help a MOD team as much as I could for an unofficial patch.

[Trin]

I would offer my services to the Restoration team, if they need someone to get their drinks, snickers bars etc, oh you actually mean someone to help with the restoration … well, that uh, is way out of my league I rely on other peoples genius there … "

[Oerwinde]

I agree on the Jedi thing. Instead of merely gaining enough influence and bam, jedi party members, you should have had to get enough influence to convince them, then 4 or 5 conversations/cutscenes later, then they could become jedi.

[jaguars4ever]

On two different occasions, the player is required to play as Mira

On two different occasions, the player is reqiured to play as T3

Once the player must be Atton

Once the player must be Bao Dur's useless DROID

At the end, the player has to go it alone:

[master_pendrak]

woah a well thought out and laid out post identifying issues with the game that i myself have disliked.

 

infact i agree with everything you've said apart from the thing about Mira who i found interesting, had her character been expanded more she would have been far better as a companion.

 

great post, it was actually a pleasure to read

[darthbass123]

Im surprised i read all that.

Great Job.

u did what i didnt have the guts to do.

[Darth Blivion]

Didn't read much of your post sorry, but from what little I read, you have a problem with going solo? Why is that? I would have much preferred the game to be that way, opens up the level of interactivity, plus it can solve party AI problems - which you'll always have as long as the combat remains turnbased and party members accompany you.

 

Liked the solo missions, I thought that they were some of the best parts of the game - didn't have much/any of it in kotor1, which wasn't cool.

[JamieKirby]

well, your list is very good and well thought out, but i do prefer a good solo playthrough but there are times, when i like a group with me for ranged support, but the sadness about it is that you don't get to choose if you are solo or not at certain points of the game.

 

Kriea annoyed me alot, i think she was the Kotor II version of your party members nagging at you for being a bad boy or girl. lol

 

I wish they did do a better job, but they obviously won't even release that Movie and Music patch, even though that isn't important to me, the accual game is more important, since everyone will probably skip the movies anyway. lol

 

I haven't played Kotor II since i first finished it and tried a second playthrough, i couldn't finish it, it was just virtually the same game as before and that Wookiee was so annoying me.

 

In Kotor I, you had two endings, (Lightside and Darkside) and in Kotor II you had basicly one ending, which was mostly used for both LS and DS, so for the first time, a RPG didn't have any replayability what so ever. (basicly it is a complete it and shelf it type of game)

 

But as alot of people are saying, it is too late for LA to do a thing for this game, it is entirely up to the mod teams for unoffical patches, I would help but i don't have any of those skills.

 

I don't know about you guys, but i think if you can't or won't support it, you shouldn't have released it at all, but they released it anyway and now, we are ignored, it shows what LA thinks is important.....profit.

 

I only play Kotor I now, since that is a finished game, Kotor II is a unfinished beta in my opinion.

[dufflover]

Wow...massive post - sorry to everyone I can't be bothered reading your replies.

 

From what I've read and understood you have a lot of "back to the drawing board" sorta stuff which is fair enough but one of the biggest killers for this game was time - there was no time to refine and fix this stuff up.

 

I say it's one of the biggest and not the biggest cos I also find to an equally bad level their choice of story - True Sith, Force Echo/Wound/Void/CookieMonster, non-Jedi Atris, etc. not for me, although I have to admit I'll probably get K3 anyway cos it's Star Wars and I still want an ending even if it does suck like Matrix or Half-Life 2.

[JamieKirby]

Well, its not that there wasn't enough time it was LA that rushed it out before it was ready, so i think LA should get in trouble or something for rushing out a unfinished product.

[Enha_Dyone]

Yay but with all that "rushing" criticism we'll never get K3 :'(