This game is average

[StandUpWookie]

I got the original KOTOR maybe 6 months after it was released. I have bought every Black Isle RPG since the first Baldur's Gate I think. They were all pretty well done, and certainly the best RPGs to date.

 

I think Planescape (still is) the pinnacle of computer RPG play. Everything about that game was great. Most of their RPGs have a lot of similarities, but I guess thats the case with most genres. But since Planescape, each following game I have liked less and less....mind you I still buy them, as they are better than most computer games.

 

Like most of the audience, we pretty much know how to play these games. Usually they fall into the "kill mas quantities of monsters" and "loot everything" and "talk to everyone" and "save repeatedly" category type....but we have been doing this since Zelda....so its old hat.

 

KOTOR was a great game as it had some new stuff. The voice acting was probably the best of any game to date, plus it had all those languages (who cares if the Twileks said only a few sentances, or only had one or two "faces"...was still good).

 

The combat was nice...I wouldnt call it the best, but that plus the fact it was a well written story AND the fact it was Star Wars made for a great game.

 

I could overlook the linear "level" progression and the hack 'n slash mentality, as I have played plenty of games like that yet still enjoyed them.

 

Certainly, KOTOR 1 was well deserved of its many accolades.

 

Then the sequel came. Sequels generally are not as good, and this one is no exception.

 

After playing for a few days, I have grown tired of the repetitive combat system. It really is bad. I cannot count how many times I have pressed an attack mode or medpac or whatever and the character does not respond. Or the bad AI, or the same basic hack n slash found in KOTOR I....they really didnt "add" anything to the game.

 

To me its just an expansion.

 

My pet peeve is my party running off after combat to engage other monsters. This is a problem I had with the first game, and I still cannot figure it out. I try to do the ole switch and run, but as soon as I do that the other character runs back...its like some relay race to see who can mess up my combat plan first.

 

The combat AI, and lackluster party AI basicall makes everything a "one-button" show. No need to plan stategy, or use mines or anything, as the party just runs off and engages what ever threat lies closest....even switching their AI does not help this.

 

Heck, even solo mode does not help....if they are in proximity to something hostile, they will run to it.

 

I was hoping the combat programming would be better this time around. But its the same.

 

Graphics should be great, except I have seen them in KOTOR I already.

 

Even HK, everyones favorite character, seems a less interesting than in the original. He seems contrived....like the lines he uses are put in because some produce said, "hey, we gotta have more HK insults"...not as funny as the first.

 

The game just got boring and dull. I was hoping for something more, but instead got the same old "We gotta rush this sequel out the door" game...

 

I hope OBSIDIAN doesnt start resting on their laurels with these games. Black Isle had that problem. I hope NWN 2 has a lot more improvements than the first NWN...

 

Im sure Ill go back to this game in a few months...but to me, it seems like Diet KOTOR...

 

you may all flame away now.

 

SUW

[dufflover]

I haven't read the whole post...sorry.

 

In terms of expansions, Star Trek Elite Force 2 was good, and I'm sure there are many others, but I am in the club of K1 better than K2.

 

Seen heaps of these and generalised, you usually like it or you don't.

 

Shameless plug " : Welcome to the boards, wanna play Pazaak!

 

btw, have you read the thread about the Restoration Project?

[EnderAndrew]

You can change the party AI via stances that will prevent them from running off so much.

 

KOTOR:2 was rushed by the developer and as it stands may still be better than KOTOR:2 on various levels.

[dufflover]

as it stands may still be better than KOTOR:2 on various levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are some good previous discussions on this and I'll search up some of the links.

I'm in a rush right now but here's an old one which has some good discussion:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=34537

[Musopticon?]

PS:T still the pinnacle of crpg play? Really?

 

Well, maybe storywise and dialogue-/characterwise, but everything else is pretty mediocre. With the action being actually quite bad sometimes.

[Dark Moth]

I am in the club of K1 better than K2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup, same here. One thing I felt was that in K2 we traded in some nice new stuff for overall quality, meaning: an unfinished game, a bad ending (of course), a bigger glitch problem, and the same (if not worse) problem with constant loading screens. Not to mention the plotholes and incomplete quests. I think the devs dropped the ball in many aspects. I also felt the story in K1 was better than K2, but my biggest disappointment was that the story in K2 could have been so much better.

 

For other viewpoints, you may have to wait a bit before GoA comes rushing to K2's defense.

[Evil_Lurking_Koala]

I think a lot of the criticisms so far mentioned about K2 have been well founded. I think the principle problem with the game is in the core philosphical theme behind it. That theme is nihilism (nothingness; no moral truths). It's not a feel good philosophy and most people don't like supporting it. I would't willingly seek out a study in nihilism when looking for an enjoyable game. Basing a game on nothing just doesn't work. People leave the game feeling unsatisfied from the experience.

 

That was Obsidian's worst mistake, in my opinion. It makes the entire game dreary and many of the characters, including the exile, unsympathetic. I'm looking forward to seeing the final product of the TSLRP, they are certainly doing the community a tremendous favor with the work they are doing, but I'm uncertain if the additions they make will change the core philosophy that makes it so unpalatable.

 

People would much rather participate in a medium supporting Joseph Campbell's monomyth (the story of a hero's journey) than a story about the supremacy of nothing. That's one reason people like Star Wars and K1 so much. They both relate to people a journey that we all have in our collective subconscious. We leave playing such games or watching such movies with a sense of hope and satisfaction.

[Musopticon?]

And that's why K2 felt fresh enough: Different themes than everything else in SW. Granted; it doesn't feel very "starwarsy" in the end, but after a horde of rpgs, and well games in general, with the protagonist's heroic journey theme... K2 with its almost-nilistic approach is like a stiff breeze to the drivel we get nowadays. The devs had the guts to try something different, even as it didn't actually succeed very well. Furthermore; you're generalising a bit too much by saying that they based the game on nothing.

 

However; it's mostly a taste issue, so I might as well stop bickering.

 

 

Edit: I just noticed; why did you say that the criticism is well founded, when none of the rep

[GhostofAnakin]

For other viewpoints, you may have to wait a bit before GoA comes rushing to K2's defense.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I only comment on critisisms when they're unfounded or downright lies.

 

You may not know this, but I actually voted for K1 over K2, largely due to what you mentioned (especially the ending). However, I'll defend any game, regardless if I loved it or hated it, if people bring up invalid arguments against it or if they exaggerate something about it.

 

Now on to this specific post:

 

While I can't disagree with much of your complaints because they are either a)true or b)your opinion, I just found it a bit weird that you used PS:T as your "pinnacle" for RPG and then went on to complain about KOTOR2's combat. PS:T's combat was hardly awe inspiring either, so I just thought that was a bit weird to bring up that game and then go on a tantrum about the combat in TSL.

[Dark Moth]

For other viewpoints, you may have to wait a bit before GoA comes rushing to K2's defense.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I only comment on critisisms when they're unfounded or downright lies.

 

You may not know this, but I actually voted for K1 over K2, largely due to what you mentioned (especially the ending). However, I'll defend any game, regardless if I loved it or hated it, if people bring up invalid arguments against it or if they exaggerate something about it.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Easy, I was just playing with you, GoA.

 

One other thing I disliked about K2 is that the exile seemed like a doomed character, no matter what you did. The game never really explained if you were still a wound in the force at the end of the game. I'm guessing/hoping it will be explained in K3, if it's ever made. And to me, he/she didn't feel as much like your character as Revan did in K1. And when K2 tried to explain Revan's past and his actions, he felt less like your character as well.

Edited August 17, 2005 by Mothman

[metadigital]

I think a lot of the criticisms so far mentioned about K2 have been well founded.  I think the principle problem with the game is in the core philosphical theme behind it.  That theme is nihilism (nothingness; no moral truths).  It's not a feel good philosophy and most people don't like supporting it.  I would't willingly seek out a study in nihilism when looking for an enjoyable game.  Basing a game on nothing just doesn't work.  People leave the game feeling unsatisfied from the experience.

 

That was Obsidian's worst mistake, in my opinion.  It  makes the entire game dreary and many of the characters, including the exile, unsympathetic.  I'm looking forward to seeing the final product of the TSLRP, they are certainly doing the community a tremendous favor with the work they are doing, but I'm uncertain if the additions they make will change the core philosophy that makes it so unpalatable. 

 

People would much rather participate in a medium supporting Joseph Campbell's monomyth (the story of a hero's journey) than a story about the supremacy of nothing.  That's one reason people like Star Wars and K1 so much.  They both relate to people a journey that we all have in our collective subconscious.  We leave playing such games or watching such movies with a sense of hope and satisfaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see how you can advocate that the central theme of K2 was nihilism.

 

Sure, it was a pretty ambivalent story, presumeably because they had to allow for both LS and DS progression (and the writers were lazy or stymied), but I don't see a victory for nihilism: quite the opposite, Kreia and her determination to carry out Zarathustra's observation were thawted by the Exile; the Force wins! The Force is not nihilism. Sure, maybe Darkside protagonists are hedonistic, but this isn't the central theme. After all, according to lore, DS characters die a permanent death, whereas LS realise everlasting life (albeit as a blue ghost ...)

...

Edit: I just noticed; why did you say that the criticism is well founded, when none of the rep

[BattleCookiee]

After all, according to lore, DS characters die a permanent death, whereas LS realise everlasting life (albeit as a blue ghost ...)

 

2 words:

 

Ajuunta Pall (or whatever) (KOTOR1)

[Deraldin]

After all, according to lore, DS characters die a permanent death, whereas LS realise everlasting life (albeit as a blue ghost ...)

 

2 words:

 

Ajuunta Pall (or whatever) (KOTOR1)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but he was different. Going by what was in the game, in a way he had realized the folly of the path that he had chosen and seemed to hae diverted from the darkside somewhat.

[metadigital]

If you are going to poke holes in the canon, you may as well drive a 22-wheeler towing a battleship, sideways.

 

Nevertheless, that is the stated lore. The fact that Ajunta got stuck (maybe, as Deraldin suggests, because he was penitent) does not deminish the stated and accepted facts ().

[Meshugger]

For me, combat isn't a "make it or break it" feature in an rpg, the story is.

[GhostofAnakin]

For me, combat isn't a "make it or break it" feature in an rpg, the story is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed.

[julianw]

As far as combat is concerned with Kotor, a lightsaber with sound effects is enough for me.

[metadigital]

Alas and alak, there seems to be a "silent majority" that we do not fit into ...

[GhostofAnakin]

Alas and alak, there seems to be a "silent majority" that we do not fit into ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The ones that like midget porn....that is what you meant right? Right?

[Musopticon?]

...

Edit: I just noticed; why did you say that the criticism is well founded, when none of the rep

[dufflover]

I wasn't very happy with the direction/settomg K2 was going in and after playing, the whole force deal (I'll keep it at that - non-spoilers) didn't appeal to me and looking at the title and Nihilus/Atris art, it all turned out to be a fizzer for me.

 

Overall I'd say the game is above average, but not very fulfilling.

[metadigital]

Yeah, that's a valid and often glossed-over point. The entire marketing machine was pushing one game, and the development team delivered a completely different one!

 

No wonder there were grumbles from the audience.

[GhostofAnakin]

Yeah, that's a valid and often glossed-over point. The entire marketing machine was pushing one game, and the development team delivered a completely different one!

 

No wonder there were grumbles from the audience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorta like how Mike Gallo stated in every magazine interview that they were promising a "Simultaneous Release" this time, repeating it over and over, but then suddenly changing his tune without even an explanation to the public why?

[metadigital]

The lying isn't the problem. It's:

1. we, the audience, are gullible enough to believe what they're saying;
   
2. they, the publishers, can say anything they want and we'll buy it;
   
3. they can say anything they want and we HAVE to buy it;
   
4. we, the audience, are stupid enough not to notice when they lie;
   
5. we, the audience, are not important enough to warrant an explanation;
   
6. they, the publishers, are too rude to apologise.
   

That sort of attitude only loses market share.

[GhostofAnakin]

Does Gallo still have his job after the restructuring?