Speculation on the Jedi Masters

[Jediphile]

No, the Jedi acted purely out of desperation in K1.  They had no other choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed, but as I said, that's not the problem. The problem is that they just casually try to deny responsibility for it afterwards. If they had accepted their responsibility in the matter and apologized to Revan, I would have accepted it. They don't, however, and that makes them hypocritical. You don't make such a choice and then deny the responsibility if you're an ethical person - you always accept the responsibility. Vandar seemed to accept this, but none of the others did, including Bastila, who obviously fell to the dark side shortly after.

 

It was in K2 where they acted out of fear and arrogance.  (see my above post)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I'd agree with that. Kreia is right in comdemning them for refusing to listen to the truth the Exile brings them (but she is not right in killing them for it!).

 

And Revan going to war actually hurt the Republic in the long one, for it soon sparked the Jedi civil war and created the wound in the force at Malachor V.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, the Exile created the wound in the force at Malachor V - Revan had nothing to do with that.

 

In a sense, the Jedi were right.  And Bastila didn't 'use' you because she wanted to.  She had to.  She had a duty to do, and she didn't.  And she also hated herself for it as well (she tells you later on).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, Revan was right too, in a sense - the true Sith had to be fought. Heck, even the Mandalorians had to be fought or the Republic would have fallen - what would the threat of the true Sith have mattered if that had happened?

 

Yes, Revan made a terrible choice - he chose to sacrifice himself and countless other jedi in order to oppose the true Sith and stop the Mandalorians. Whether he fell completely to the dark side or not is another matter - opposing the Mandalorians and creating a jedi army to fight the true Sith was his original intention.

 

He didn't do it because he wanted to. He did it because he knew it had to be done, and he was prepared to sacrifice thousands of jedi, since it was necessary.

 

The council, however, did not see it that way. They did not want to see those thousands of jedi fall, but they were perfectly willing to let millions of innocent non-force-sensitives die at the hands of the Mandalorians instead. They were even willing to risk letting the Republic fall rather than risk danger to the jedi on such a mass scale.

 

Now, who does that make the hero? That way the masters begin to look like semi-fascists, who only care about the jedi as the "herrenvolk"... If the rest of the population dies, then it doesn't matter, because they weren't jedi...

 

Revan going to war in the Mandalorian wars might have actually killed off more lives than saved them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, you can argue that either way. Nobody seems to question that the Republic would have fallen had it not been for the sacrifices Revan was willing to make.

 

And what would the jedi order have fought the true Sith with later, if the Republic had fallen and its fleets destroyed or captured by the Mandalorians?

[Dark Moth]

Only 2 flaws in your argument:

1. Revan didn't even know about the True Sith when he went to fight the Mandalorians. He discovered them either during or after the Mandalorian wars. The Jedi wanted to wait because they sensed another threat out there, and it turned out being the True Sith. Revan going to war was just what the Sith Empire wanted.

 

2. The exile followed Revan to war. If Revan hadn't gone, it's likely the exile wouldn't have gone either, therefore no 'general', no Malachor V, no wound in the force, no Nihilus.

 

And if Revan hadn't fought in the wars, there would be no Jedi civil war, and the Republic would actually have been stronger for that and more able to deal with the Sith. Also, without Nihilus, most Jedi would have survived, and the Republic would have been even stronger.

 

And even if you say Revan was justified because he discovered the Sith Empire, if he really wanted to save the Republic, he would not have fought it, he would have tried to strengthen it by other means. Civil war only weakens a nation.

 

And Bastila did accept responsibility for Revan's mind being wiped. It upset her greatly, and as I said earlier, she couldn't stand it. That was one of the seeds planted in her mind that eventually led to her distrust of the Jedi and her fall to the darkside.

[master_pendrak]

Revan wages a war to eradicate the Jedi Order feeling it to be weak and flawed that should the Sith return the Jedi wouldnt be able to deal with any new threats because of their failings, flaws. But when it comes down to it Revan could be this "true sith" that is a danger to the galaxy. Her private war with the Jedi could infact bring more harm than she intends even if she means to strengthen the galaxy with a stronger Jedi Order.

 

And for all her moral reasons for using the darkside to wipe the Jedi out she becomes nothing else than another Sith Lord in a long line of Sith Lords waging war with the Jedi and Republic.

 

Jedi have grown arrogant and unchallenged in the field of wisdom and knowledge. Sith wars before Revan's had been just mindless battle, slaughter and conqeuring. Revan waged a private war with the Jedi alone not just battle and slaughter but about the Jedi Order as a whole. Its philosophy and thinking its teachings and teachers, its ideals and the many flaws they created.

 

She hated them for their flaws and felt a change was needed to strengthen the galaxy and preserve it for the future. And the only way to do it would be to wipe every one of them out and start a fresh Jedi Order. One without the influence's of the old, and in being able to accomplish this, being able to persuade Jedi stuck into the belief of their old Masters she needed to convert them to her way of thinking.

 

But the Jedi Masters in K1 IMO knew nothing of her reasons for war at the time and in an act of desperation raped her mind to use against her. In K2 however the Jedi are destroyed basically in a final act of fear, arrogance and hypocricy they dont try and learn what happened to the Exile. They simply try to break him or destroy him which in an Ironic turn of events breaks and destroys them.

 

So Jedi hypocricy is the doom of the Jedi themselves, their arrogant hypocritical ways doom them to their own destruction in a certain point of view. Had they thought to understand why Revan went to war then maybe she would never have fallen. Had they bothered to learn from the Exile then the last of them wouldnt have been killed.

[Jediphile]

Only 2 flaws in your argument:

1.  Revan didn't even know about the True Sith when he went to fight the Mandalorians.  He discovered them either during or after the Mandalorian wars.  The Jedi wanted to wait because they sensed another threat out there, and it turned out being the True Sith.  Revan going to war was just what the Sith Empire wanted. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Remember what Kreia says: "The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic."

 

There are several comments through K2 about how Revan left strategic installations intact, didn't attack Onderon (because it is strategically important due it's location close to the Sith empire), had the HK-factory built on Telos, etc... HK-47 and GOTO both make several references to this apparently farsighted strategic thinking as well.

 

2.  The exile followed Revan to war.  If Revan hadn't gone, it's likely the exile wouldn't have gone either, therefore no 'general', no Malachor V, no wound in the force, no Nihilus.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How does that disprove my theory in any way? On the contrary, I think it supports it, because Nihilus is a threat to the Republic, and Revan never intended that - he simply didn't know what the Exile had unleashed, when the Exile created the wound in the Force.

 

And if Revan hadn't fought in the wars, there would be no Jedi civil war, and the Republic would actually have been stronger for that and more able to deal with the Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ahem, no - the Mandalorians would have conquered the Republic...

Don't take my word for it - take Canderous' in K1...

 

Also, without Nihilus, most Jedi would have survived, and the Republic would have been even stronger. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Again, Nihilus was always a threat never intended by Revan. And Revan needed the Republic to be strong when the war with the true Sith came. The Exile's wound in the Force and all the consequnces it brought with it, including Nihilus, is probably a big unknown factor to Revan that can really mess up his plans.

 

And even if you say Revan was justified because he discovered the Sith Empire, if he really wanted to save the Republic, he would not have fought it, he would have tried to strengthen it by other means.  Civil war only weakens a nation. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, yes and no. On the one had I agree with you that civil war would weaken the Republic, but on the other hand, it also prepares it for the later war with the true Sith... Besides, I think that while Revan intended for the Republic to be ready by then, he did fall to the dark side and instead became the conquerer rather than the savior himself, and so turned on the very Republic that he sacrificed himself to save. He did leave it militarily intact in some cases by not attacking certain worlds and not destroying the Republic's potential for military build-up, but only because Darth Revan realized that the true Sith would remain a threat to his own empire once he had conquered. But that's just IMHO. Then again, it would be ironic if Revan dooms the Republic because he actually underestimates his own power - what if he sacrificed himself fully expecting to be overthrown by the jedi in time, only to then be too much for them to handle? Now, that would be bitter irony...

 

And Bastila did accept responsibility for Revan's mind being wiped.  It upset her greatly, and as I said earlier, she couldn't stand it.  That was one of the seeds planted in her mind that eventually led to her distrust of the Jedi and her fall to the darkside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She eventually did in the LS version of the story, but she didn't at the time when she embarked on the mission with Revan. Indeed, as Malak reveals, she only supported the plan because she was intrigued by the dark side and knew that this was the only way the masters would let her explore it. So basically she was willing to manipulate and use Revan just so she could explore the dark side. That doesn't say anything positive about her.

[GhostofAnakin]

*professing hatred for K2 once again*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You really do like to paint everything in K1 in a great light, and everything in K2 in a poor light, don't you?

 

You say what the masters did in K1 was for the benefit of the entire galaxy, yet the masters in K2 are idiots because of what they did. Hmm, they did what they did in K2 for the very same reason, because they felt the Exile was a danger to the ENTIRE GALAXY.

 

They thought (doesn't mean they were right, but we're talking about their reasons here) that the Exile would be the death of the Force and the death therefore of the galaxy, so they stripped him of the Force.

 

I just find it humorous to read all your posts when K1 and K2 are compared. You make anything and everything in K1 seem to make 100% perfect sense, but then make anything and everything in K2 seem illogical or unrealistic or downright stupid. This thread is the perfect example.

 

Apparently it was okay for the Jedi Masters in K1 to take it upon themselves to wipe someone's mind for the better of the general population, but yet it was "idiotic" of the Masters in K2 to do the something similar for the greater good.

 

Funny how things work when seen through rose colored glasses.

[master_pendrak]

Exile is a light sided Darth Nihilus as both are feeding on the force, the difference is Exile isn't doing it intentionally so i suppose it isnt as strong on his allies. Revan had no idea what had happened to Exile after Malachor V and had no way of knowing Darth Nihilus's power would come as a result of the Exile's actions.

 

Revan's war was a private one waged against the Jedi and it just so happens the Republic allied with them. She found the Jedi to be flawed and failures and intended on a genocidal rampage killing them all so her new stronger order had no flaws from influence of the old masters.

 

But Revan never thought that her actions could bring about the destruction of the Republic or the galaxy as a whole. By waging a civil war she weakened it more in an already fragile state. But when the Jedi mind raped her it made her realise the error in her ways and she set forth to stopping Malak then leaving for the unknown. Where she would confront the true sith (which IMO is Revan and her inner conflicts).

 

The Jedi in K1 did good and bad in their mind wipe, they helped stop one war but left themselves open for another. Because they exiled the Exile they never had chance to understand him. Or what had happened to him since the Mandalorian War so when Nihilus shows up they are unprepared.

 

In K1&2 the Jedi make too very fatal errors, fear and arrogance cause their downfall in the long run. Fear in desperation at trying to stop Malak and Arrogance in never trying to learn from Exile when they had the chance(s). Their actions in K1 brought about their failure in K2.

[Dark Moth]

*professing hatred for K2 once again*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You really do like to paint everything in K1 in a great light, and everything in K2 in a poor light, don't you?

 

You say what the masters did in K1 was for the benefit of the entire galaxy, yet the masters in K2 are idiots because of what they did. Hmm, they did what they did in K2 for the very same reason, because they felt the Exile was a danger to the ENTIRE GALAXY.

 

They thought (doesn't mean they were right, but we're talking about their reasons here) that the Exile would be the death of the Force and the death therefore of the galaxy, so they stripped him of the Force.

 

I just find it humorous to read all your posts when K1 and K2 are compared. You make anything and everything in K1 seem to make 100% perfect sense, but then make anything and everything in K2 seem illogical or unrealistic or downright stupid. This thread is the perfect example.

 

Apparently it was okay for the Jedi Masters in K1 to take it upon themselves to wipe someone's mind for the better of the general population, but yet it was "idiotic" of the Masters in K2 to do the something similar for the greater good.

 

Funny how things work when seen through rose colored glasses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, for one thing, I do often look at K1 in a positive light because I think it was a lot better done. Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2. As for Revan, the Jedi were justified because he was killing off their order and hurting the Republic. They were merely defending themselves. Did you honestly expect them to sit down and have a chat with Revan over fried gizka asking him to kindly stop attacking them?

 

In K2, the exile (LS) was trying to help the republic. He didn't know he was a danger, but he still was trying to save the Jedi order. But the Jedi Masters, in their fear and ignorance, decided to condemn him instead of help him. They were not justified. There was another way to defeat the Sith other than cutting off the exile from the force, and you proved that by beating them all yourself. In K1, there really was no other way. If you can come up with an alternate thing the Jedi could have done in K1, please explain away.

 

And if Revan truly wanted to help the Republic, he would have done a "Gandalf" and counseled all the nations to prepare for war, not attack them outright. In attacking them, he weakened the Republic and the Jedi and left it vulnerable. And Revan did not know about the True Sith when he went to fight the Mandalorians, so you can't say he even knew about them at the time of his departure to fight.

 

EDIT: Hooray, 400 posts. I need to take a break.

[Jediphile]

Well, for one thing, I do often look at K1 in a positive light because I think it was a lot better done.    Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In your opinion, at least. It's fair and fine that you like K1 better, but please acknowledge that other people need not agree with you, and their opinion is just as valid as yours. If you like K1 and want to argue that, that's totally fair, but everybody else has the same right to argue their opinion as well. You thinking that K1 was better doesn't make it so, and you pretty much state that as a fact, when you write sentences like "Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2". It's still just your opinion, not a fact.

 

As for Revan, the Jedi were justified because he was killing off their order and hurting the Republic.  They were merely defending themselves.  Did you honestly expect them to sit down and have a chat with Revan over fried gizka asking him to kindly stop attacking them? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, that's what the council wanted him to do...

 

They wanted everybody to just wait around and sip tea or whatever while millions died in the outer rim. Revan wasn't prepared to just wait around while that happened. I can't say I blame him...

 

In K2, the exile (LS) was trying to help the republic.  He didn't know he was a danger, but he still was trying to save the Jedi order.  But the Jedi Masters, in their fear and ignorance, decided to condemn him instead of help him.  They were not justified.  There was another way to defeat the Sith other than cutting off the exile from the force, and you proved that by beating them all yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Defeating the Sith was *not* the reason why they wanted to cut him off from the Force - they wanted to cut him off because he could wound the Force and they felt the potential consequences of that ability were too dangerous to allow to exist. I don't agree with their decision, but their motives are not what you claim here.

 

In K1, there really was no other way.  If you can come up with an alternate thing the Jedi could have done in K1, please explain away. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but just because you must do a thing, you don't just casually shrug and say, "hey, we had to, so there is no blame...". They used Revan against his wishes, and they didn't even tell him. Or as master Vash puts it, "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame." They forgot to do the first in K1...

 

What would have happened if they had told him the truth during his re-training on Dantooine and then *aksed* him to help them? True, he might have refused to cooperate, but the point is that they didn't even give him the chance to agree or disagree to help. As Mission says later, "you're not that person anymore". Mission was a teenage girl, and she got the point. The masters clearly didn't, or else they just didn't care... What does that say about the masters? "

 

And they could have - they could have questions to determine his moral and ethical standing. They could have asked Bastila and Revan's companions what sort of a person he was now. But they couldn't be bothered and instead just used him like a pawn. And then they won't even accept responsibility for it? Pathetic! Jedi hypocrisy at its worst! They truly were no better than the Sith!

 

And if Revan truly wanted to help the Republic, he would have done a "Gandalf" and counseled all the nations to prepare for war, not attack them outright.  In attacking them, he weakened the Republic and the Jedi and left it vulnerable.  And Revan did not know about the True Sith when he went to fight the Mandalorians, so you can't say he even knew about them at the time of his departure to fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you know that Revan didn't know about the true Sith at that point. Kreia's comments suggest otherwise to me.

 

"And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way."

 

"You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

 

Now, you may not agree that Revan knew the true Sith were out there, but the above suggest different to me. Please don't ignore that point just because it undermines your position.

 

Feel free to disagree or argue otherwise, but please back up your position with actual references to the game if you do, and please don't ignore my argumentation just because it doesn't fit with your perspective on the matter.

[GhostofAnakin]

Well, for one thing, I do often look at K1 in a positive light because I think it was a lot better done.    Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2.  As for Revan, the Jedi were justified because he was killing off their order and hurting the Republic.  They were merely defending themselves.  Did you honestly expect them to sit down and have a chat with Revan over fried gizka asking him to kindly stop attacking them?

 

Considering that's how they acted in the first place that resulted in Revan, Malak, and other Jedi to go off to war against their wishes, it wouldn't surprise me. The fact they chose NOW to take action and the action they took speaks volumes about just how desperate and panicky they were.

 

In K2, the exile (LS) was trying to help the republic.  He didn't know he was a danger, but he still was trying to save the Jedi order.  But the Jedi Masters, in their fear and ignorance, decided to condemn him instead of help him.  They were not justified.  There was another way to defeat the Sith other than cutting off the exile from the force, and you proved that by beating them all yourself.  In K1, there really was no other way.  If you can come up with an alternate thing the Jedi could have done in K1, please explain away. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They saw Exile as a death to the Force. Was their thought process wrong? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that their *intent* was the same as was the Jedi Council's intent in K1. That is, to bring peace to the greater good but at the expense of one individual.

 

The thing you seem to miss is the fact that I am NOT saying the K2 Jedi Masters did better than the K1 Council did. I'm saying they both had reasons for what they did. I'm just pointing out the fact that you make it seem either ridiculous or moronic for them to attempt what they did in K2, but was 100% the right thing to do in K1. That's where my contention with how you like to look through rose colored glasses towards a game you like as compared to one you dislike.

[Lord Kil]

The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember this quote from Kreia too. The problem with this theory is that the corrupted Revan was way more dangerous than the Mandalorians were.

 

On the K1 council's decision: They had few options available. Technically, the war was already lost, Malak was going to crush them with Revan's army. Since Revan had disobeyed them before, I understand why they didn't trust him with the truth of his identity.

 

On the K2 council's decision: The decision to cut the LS Exile off from the force seems to stem from irrational fear. After constantly berating the Exile for acting without thinking, they themselves reach a snap decision to destroy a potential ally. This is especially strange at a time when they are running short of allies. If nothing else, they needed to examine the Exile more thouroughly before passing this harsh judgement.

 

At the very least, destroy the Sith, then cut off the Exile from the force!

[master_pendrak]

the Jedi in K1 and K2 were wrong in their decision, by mind raping Revan they left the door wide open for her to fall to the darkside again. And possibly disrupt their plans for finding the starforge. Remember they only used her to find the starforge not really destroy the sith, so had she fallen she would have possibly destroyed the star maps, or locked them to her alone.

 

In K2 the Jedi chose the wrong decision, they chose the very decision that made them sound like Kreia described. They talk but do not listen, they talked to the Exile shouted him down basically telling him he was wrong in doing what he thought was best. But never took time to listen to his point of view his thoughts and experiences.

 

So infact from a certain point of view the Jedi in K1&2 made bad or risky to dangerous decisions in the middle of a time of crisis, which could have destroyed the Jedi Order. But it would seem that their decision in K1 infact set the stage for the destrucion of the Jedi Order in K2. Having turned Revan away from the darkside they allowed her to seek out her past, by removing her memories she was obviously going to want to know her past.

 

Subseqeuntly giving her motive and opportunity to leave Republic space allowing the galaxy to fall to turmoil when it needed a leader, a figurehead. In a way for all of GOTO's faults and manipulations he had good interests at heart (processor ) by trying to re-establish stability that was much needed.

 

EDIT - grammer problems, sorry if there still is some

[Jediphile]

The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember this quote from Kreia too. The problem with this theory is that the corrupted Revan was way more dangerous than the Mandalorians were.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd agree with that, except Revan wasn't as destructive as the Mandalorians were. He knew that the true Sith would eventually come, and so he allowed the Republic's military infrastructure to exist. There are several comments on this. Here is one.

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

So while Revan would have conquered the Republic, he would also have prepared it for the next war against the true Sith. How much or how little he was corrupted by the dark side is immaterial, since he would have armed the Republic in time either way - either to save the Republic or else to protect his own empire.

 

The jedi actually messed up that plan, since their interference gave Malak a chance to replace Revan, and unlike him, Malak did not care how much of the Republic he destroyed, as GOTO mentions in the above.

 

On the K1 council's decision: They had few options available. Technically, the war was already lost, Malak was going to crush them with Revan's army. Since Revan had disobeyed them before, I understand why they didn't trust him with the truth of his identity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet using him casually because it's convenient is a mark of the Sith, not the jedi. They argue redemption, but they are not willing to put it to the test, and they can't even be bothered to ask his companions if he has changed. The fact that they don't suggests that they are more concerned with his disobidience than with his motives for defying them, which speaks volumes about their own arrogance.

 

On the K2 council's decision: The decision to cut the LS Exile off from the force seems to stem from irrational fear. After constantly berating the Exile for acting without thinking, they themselves reach a snap decision to destroy a potential ally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd agree that it's a snap decision, but not irrational. The Exile could wound the force. What if he could kill it outright? What would the consequence of that be? They don't know and, yes, they fear that, but it's not irrational - they are the jedi masters, and if they don't know, then chances are that nobody does. Since life and the force itself are tied, maybe he could kill all life in the galaxy. If that's the case, then letting him keep his power is a risk that they cannot allow to exist - you don't stand around wondering if that grenade is about to go off - you throw it away before it explodes in your face!

 

This is especially strange at a time when they are running short of allies. If nothing else, they needed to examine the Exile more thouroughly before passing this harsh judgement.

 

At the very least, destroy the Sith, then cut off the Exile from the force!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is that the Exile represented a much greater and far more immediate threat than the Sith did. Sure, the Sith might hunt the masters down and kill the jedi, but if the Exile can kill all life everywhere, then he is a much greater threat. Once they deal with him, they can continue to worry about the Sith.

 

Again, I'm not saying I agree with their decision, just that this is what they thought.

[Jediphile]

In K2 the Jedi chose the wrong decision, they chose the very decision that made them sound like Kreia described. They talk but do not listen, they talked to the Exile shouted him down basically telling him he was wrong in doing what he thought was best. But never took time to listen to his point of view his thoughts and experiences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I agree. It was the epitome of hypocrisy when they say to the Exile during his trial:

 

"You refuse to hear us. You have shut us out, and so have shut yourself to the galaxy."

 

The irony is bitter, because that is exactly what they do themselves - they have shut him out and refuse to listen, and in so doing, they have closed themselves to the truth. And the poor fools just don't get it.

[darthbass123]

In a way the Jedi Masters were right. Let me explain b4 u all kill me.

 

The exile didnt know of the potential he posessed so the Masters clearly told him with no grudge or any kind of fear inside.

 

The Masters held a larger view of the problem. If the exile would have any type of connection to the force then he would literally kill anyone and everyone.

 

they did the only thing possible that is not against the Jedi beliefs. they couldnt kill him so they permanently cut off the exiles connection to the force.

 

I know there are a couple things that can prove me wrong but ill leave those to you guys.

[master_pendrak]

i can see what you mean, but i truly believe it shows how they feared the Exile and what he may do for the Jedi in the future. Perhaps they thought that he might become like the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus attacking through the force should he turn darkside. But i think it was more arrogance, fear and ignorance they never listened they never tried to they just saw themselves as the wise ones who never went to war. Unlike the Exile who they condemned because he answered the call of war alongside Revan and Malak.

 

In truth i think perhaps they are bitter that they know the Jedi teachings are flawed and have failed. But cannot admit to this failure as it would make the very philosophies and ideals of the Jedi change. And so they refuse to listen and...

 

"You refuse to hear us. You have shut us out, and so have shut yourself to the galaxy."

 

...twists around and can be used for the Jedi themselves not the Exile.

[darthbass123]

My question to you guys is after they supposedly cut off the exiles connection how did he wake back up with full connection.

[master_pendrak]

they were doing it but before it worked Kreia halted the process. And perhaps the aspect of such a draining just exhausted the Exile he fell unconcious then woke to find he was ok.

[Dark Moth]

My question to you guys is after they supposedly cut off the exiles connection how did he wake back up with full connection.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They didn't. Kreia came in and killed them before they had a chance to finish the process, therefore the exile kept his/her connection to the force.

 

You can't say Revan wasn't as dangerous as the Mandalorians just because he left some military structures intact. He was far more dangerous not only because of his ability at strategy but because of the weapons he possessed (Star Forge, Malchor V, etc.) Also, here's another link with info about Revan for those confused about his beginnings.

 

Revan discovered the Sith Empire while he was wondering the galaxy after the wars. He first heard about them at Malachor (with their teachings and holocrons), and then eventually discovered them. That was when he decided to wage war on the Republic to supposedly strengthen it. But by that time, he was hopelessly lost to the Jedi, so they couldn't trust him anyway, especially if he went DS. If he refused to cooperate with them, then all would have been lost to them, so yes, I think they were also justified in not telling him. It was not a time where they could afford to take chances. It was a necessary evil.

 

If you look at the link, it says the council wanted to wait because they sensed the true threat hadn't revealed itself, and they were right. The true threat was the Sith, and they hadn't revealed themselves. The Jedi were going to act. They wouldn't sit idly by and let the entire Republic be destroyed, even they aren't that stupid. Think about it. They only wanted to wait.

 

As for the exile, you got me there, I admit. But even if they wanted to cut him off because they were afraid he could kill the force, you can't say they were justified in their actions, which I'm sure most of you agree with. But unfortunately, if it takes sacrficing one person to save thousands of others, then sometimes you have to do that. That was the case with both Revan and the exile. I just think the council was more justified with their actions toward Revan.

 

Jediphile, I still don't see how you can even say the Jedi are as bad as the Sith. And last time I checked, the Jedi weren't the ones responsible for the killings, slayings, and destruction you see in the games and the movies. The Jedi are flawed, definitely, but as a whole, I still think they are better than the Sith. At least that's what my good half says.

 

One last thing: In my link, it refers to Kreia and Kae as two separate people. While this might be proof, I think this is fairly compelling evidence that suggests Kreia wasn't Kae.

Edited August 8, 2005 by Mothman

[darthbass123]

that is what i was trying to tell these stubborn jedi master haters. (just kidding dont kill me.)

[master_pendrak]

Jedi and Sith are both as evil and good as one another each have a weakness and a strength in areas. Revan and the Exile are two unlucky force users caught up between either side in times of conflict, especially Exile who in my mind is more grey neutral than light or dark.

 

Revan was midn raped by the council in an act of desperation, they needed information and didn't have the months or years it may take to turn her to the light to get co-operation. Where as Exile it was pure arroganse and fear the Jedi never listened they refused to and in the end it was their undoing.

[Master_Vrook]

The sith are far more evil then the Jedi. Since when have the Jedi Massacred people in a quest for power? The Jedi earn their power in the Republic through trust and their usefull ness. Tell me when the Sith haven't just clawed their way up the tier into power without decimating millions of lives or creating an oppressive government of their own? The Jedi can have faults but the Sith and the Jedi are not in the same moral league.

[Jambo]

Makes you wonder about the quality of a Jedi master.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

you mean, "they just don't make 'em like they used to.."?

[Calax]

no just "They don't ever make em like they ought to"

[CoM_Solaufein]

The Jedi masters speak of new Jedi as being arrogant (Yoda) when they themselves are arrogant. Arrogance is a quality found in all Jedi.

[Jediphile]

You can't say Revan wasn't as dangerous as the Mandalorians just because he left some military structures intact.  He was far more dangerous not only because of his ability at strategy but because of the weapons he possessed (Star Forge, Malchor V, etc.)  Also, here's another link with info about Revan for those confused about his beginnings. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm beginning to think that we're not talking about the same thing when we say "dangerous". The Mandalorians weren't as powerful as Revan was, no, but they were more destructive. Like Malak they would have destroyed whatever was necessary to win without consideration for the future. Revan wouldn't, though, because he knew the war with the true Sith was coming, and he prepared for the next war even as he fought the current. Granted, it might not have been the Republic he would have defended so much as his own empire that he would have then turned the Republic into, but the planets of the Republic would have survived.

 

Revan discovered the Sith Empire while he was wondering the galaxy after the wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

He first heard about them at Malachor (with their teachings and holocrons), and then eventually discovered them.  That was when he decided to wage war on the Republic to supposedly strengthen it.    But by that time, he was hopelessly lost to the Jedi, so they couldn't trust him anyway, especially if he went DS.  If he refused to cooperate with them, then all would have been lost to them, so yes, I think they were also justified in not telling him.  It was not a time where they could afford to take chances.  It was a necessary evil. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Necessary evil is still evil.

 

Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing."

 

If you look at the link, it says the council wanted to wait because they sensed the true threat hadn't revealed itself, and they were right.  The true threat was the Sith, and they hadn't revealed themselves.  The Jedi were going to act.  They wouldn't sit idly by and let the entire Republic be destroyed, even they aren't that stupid.  Think about it.  They only wanted to wait. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's true, but indecision often equals death. Revan felt that by the time the masters might act, too many worlds would have been lost to the Mandalorians to stop them without losing so much of the Republic that it would then be doomed once the true Sith made their move. Who was right? You could claim that either or both were, but then hindsight is always 20-20...

 

As for the exile, you got me there, I admit.  But even if they wanted to cut him off because they were afraid he could kill the force, you can't say they were justified in their actions, which I'm sure most of you agree with.  But unfortunately, if it takes sacrficing one person to save thousands of others, then sometimes you have to do that.    That was the case with both Revan and the exile.  I just think the council was more justified with their actions toward Revan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I'm not saying that they weren't justified in their decision to some extent. Besides, when you look at the matter, you have to acknowledge that you, as the player, will not see the matter objectively, since you're the one being sacrificed for the greater good.

 

What bugs me in both cases is that the masters just make the decision without even allowing me (the player - Revan in K1, Exile in K2) a chance to even voice my opinion on the matter - even the condemned should get a chance to make his case, and I might even have agreed to accept their judgment, if they could persuade that it was necessary.

 

The problem is that they didn't even give me that much - their ruling was a drumhead trial, the verdict final with no chances for appeal or to make even a statement. I can accept that they had to sacrifice one person for the greater good, but that line of thinking is very slippery ground morally and ethically.

 

If you can sacrifice one person on that basis, then can you sacrifce two? Or as Captain Picard would say on Star Trek: "How many does it take before it becomes wrong?"

 

Yes, I can accept that the decision, but I cannot accept the way it was reached with cold detachment and completely without any sort of sympathy or empathy for the person being sacrificed. If the masters will make the decision, then they must accept the responsibility for it as well, and they don't look like the do that to me.