Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

How this would work is depending on your relationship with that NPC party member was.  If you earned enough influence (or whatever constitutes having a strong relationship), then the NPC party member will let the PC decide what to do (and even have a LS dialogue option to let the NPC party member leave).  If you have a weak relationship with that NPC party member, then he/she will decide to leave the party and go help his wife/lover/child/etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That was another thing that sort of happened in BGII.

[GhostofAnakin]

That was another thing that sort of happened in BGII.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, that Paladin guy right?

 

But apart from not being able to use him in the party, it didn't really have a huge affect on the story, did it? I didn't notice.

 

In my example I was thinking more along the lines of the NPC party member who leaves might actually be crucial to a part of the story and their leaving causing the PC some big time problems that will make things harder to accomplish.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Romances between party members, too.

 

Atton and Mira?

 

Visas and Mandalore?

 

Disciple and Kreia?

 

NPCs who leave your party to get married would be interesting too.

 

I haven't played Baldur's Gate, but voice over is a limiting factor, yes.  Then again, so is everything else - like having 12 potential party members.  I'd like romance and relationships to have a higher priority - as part of a well-told story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mira and Visas.. (w00t)

 

It's the age old more generic NPCs vs less very detailed NPCs. One of the things about KOTOR is I dont think you need so many NPCs simply because the game system isnt that varied (so you dont need specialised classes in the D&D sense).

 

I think you could easily get by with 6.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yeah, that Paladin guy right?

 

But apart from not being able to use him in the party, it didn't really have a huge affect on the story, did it?  I didn't notice.

 

In my example I was thinking more along the lines of the NPC party member who leaves might actually be crucial to a part of the story and their leaving causing the PC some big time problems that will make things harder to accomplish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Think so. Quite a few of them would leave if you didnt go on their sidequest in a certain ammount of time.

 

Depends on what you mean by story. In the wider plot none of the BGII NPCs had much impact on the story (aside from Imoen who was scripted into it). This of course meant you didnt have any of those situations of having to take an NPC because the story demanded it.

[jodo kast 5]

Just having a pixelated orgasm at the end of the story is pointless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok meta, way too much info than i needed

[metadigital]

Mira and Visas..  (w00t)

 

It's the age old more generic NPCs vs less very detailed NPCs. One of the things about KOTOR is I dont think you need so many NPCs simply because the game system isnt that varied (so you dont need specialised classes in the D&D sense).

 

I think you could easily get by with 6.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true; there are really only the thief (scoundrel), fighter (soldier) and Paladin (Jedi) / Blackguard (Sith), so there is no need for ten NPCs, without obvious duplication.

 

Okay, add a few droids (one?), even so that's not ten.

 

Speaking of romances, it sounds like a lot of the posters to these fora have quite a crush on HK ...

[Calax]

I think that the reason you have so many is so that when you do somthing bad you don't have to listen to carth or Handmaiden whine all the time. It's been said before but i feel i need to say it again because people seem to ignore it, There should be romance interactions between char's on board other than yourself and they get bonus's for working together as party members, also if one were to be incap'd why not have their partner run along yell at you for not protecting the partner and then take the body and run off to the ship so you have to choose a new party member. (it got on my nerves that your characters would be unconcious for a grand total of 5 seconds if they were shot..)

[Jediphile]

[snip]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[metadigital]

[snip]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Calax]

awwww how cute they kissed and made up....

[Jediphile]

awwww how cute they kissed and made up....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL :D

 

Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my... :cool:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Mira and Visas..  (w00t)

 

It's the age old more generic NPCs vs less very detailed NPCs. One of the things about KOTOR is I dont think you need so many NPCs simply because the game system isnt that varied (so you dont need specialised classes in the D&D sense).

 

I think you could easily get by with 6.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true; there are really only the thief (scoundrel), fighter (soldier) and Paladin (Jedi) / Blackguard (Sith), so there is no need for ten NPCs, without obvious duplication.

 

Okay, add a few droids (one?), even so that's not ten.

 

Speaking of romances, it sounds like a lot of the posters to these fora have quite a crush on HK ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well lets say it's a given that your PC is going to be a Jedi.

 

Couldnt really have KOTOR without HK and T-3(or something like them) so that takes care of two.

 

Another Jedi Master - three

 

Which leaves some sort of scoundrel, a soldier and a scout, which covers all the basic classes. Allowing for one out of the three (per game) to be trained as a Jedi.

 

If you allow that KOTORIII will keep the same basic your character plus two NPCs in combat, it still gives you three possible teams to mess about with. In addition you could probably make every NPCs a possible romance (not counting droids with vibration attachments).

[metadigital]

I would even say there should be a seperate NPC for the PC's padawan / apprentice (Jedi / Sith), to be picked up late in the game.

 

PS Oops, I forgot the Scout. :"> Scouts are a magicless-magic user, crossed with a thief: or just a high-INT thief (loads of skills points but no magic).

 

Anyway, they could have a male/female option, like K2, or not. They could have a romance option, or better yet tie in your padawan (LS): there is certainly a filial agap

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

There really is no limit, once the possibility of real stories is introduced, we can expect stories as strong as, say, Max Payne 2 and even characters like a Hamlet or (Lady) MacBeth

[Darth Abomination]

this has really gone on a long time hasn't it

[metadigital]

There really is no limit, once the possibility of real stories is introduced, we can expect stories as strong as, say, Max Payne 2 and even characters like a Hamlet or (Lady) MacBeth

[JediConsular7]

Got to have a different character for male/female gameplay. We should start with different people aiding us depending on the gender we play for romances and such. I hate when I start off with Carth or another whining character instead of a person who just goes out there and kicks some major ass. I want someone that will do more action than talking. Also it would be cool if we started off with a Jedi strong in the force. (one who doesnt get there hand lobbed off an hour into the game).

[Dark Moth]

One of the things that defines a tragic hero is the reader's sympathy for him/her. I felt no sympathy for Kreia, in fact I was glad when she died because her actions, IMO, were doing more harm than good. I feel the devs could have done a much better job on Kreia than they did. Time constraints had nothing to do with it, it was just poor writing and lack of planning. If anything, I thought Bastila (DS) was deep and more of a tragic hero than Kreia.

 

As for Psycho, I think Norman Baits was the main character, not Janet Leigh's character, but that could also be a twist in itself. A protagonist can be a good guy or a bad guy, as we have often seen. (ex, Macbeth.) Kreia was no exception.

 

Regarding romances in games, one of the problems is realism. There is the problem of having a deep romance with one character (K1-Bastila) versus very shallow romances with more than one character (K2). To be able to romance every character you come across would pose problems, namely difficulty. If they ever want to do romances with multiple characters, they should be deep and complete, not the lame ones we got in K2.

[jodo kast 5]

ENOUGH! Back to the topic at hand okay?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Are you suggesting it is impossible? 

 

Why can't there be deep characters? Kreia was a very good character. If it weren't for the gimped ending, the narrative would have been almost Shakespearean-tragedy in scope (if not as eloquent).

 

It is just good writing.

 

There is no need to settle for the traditional bare-bones five-point "Hero's Journey" plot sketch:

1. Departure (A hero of humble origins ...)

2. Initiation (... is forced on a great quest ...)

3. Dragon Battle (... the quest can be physical or internal ...)

4. Romance (... the protagonist meets an ideal partner along the way ...)

5. Return (... finale and return back home.)

 

Sure it takes more effort; after all if it were just as easy, then it would already be out there. 

 

Why can't there be dead ends for NPCs? Killed, abandoned or simply parting because of irreconcilable differences. Hitch**** killed off Janet Leigh's main character in the first act of Psycho; now there's a plot twist that is not clich

[jaguars4ever]

Come back here, I'll bite yer kneecaps off!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But beware the bukkake head shot my little friend.

[Jediphile]

Very few things are impossible, but it's certainly improbable.Forgetting for a moment the subjectivity of it.

 

JRPGs have done it numerous times. But they dont have choice as a core element.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Complete agreement on my part. And it's worth noting that the same was true for Kreia - she was completely linear throughout the game with no choice by the player altering her actions.

 

Obsidian were considering an alternate ending, where Atris would have taken Kreia's place as Darth Traya, but interestingly it was dropped as soon as the deadline was approaching, which only seems to underscore the idea that deep characters are impractical in a CRPG unless their development is fixed and linear and therefore completely predictable to the developers.

 

Something similar can be said for Jolee in KotOR1. You could argue that he was not linear, since he dies in the dark side ending, but the only difference is for Jolee to object wildly to the main character's decision, only to then immediately be killed off by the player and then replaced by another NPC in the group. Jolee had no death scene and his demise had no noticeable influence for the rest of the game - he might just as well have been injured and unavailable in the group, since the only consequence of his death was that you could no longer select him among the NPCs.

[Plano Skywalker]

But to actually write something like that were the player could alter the story in a meaningful way. Not likely. If you examine any story then its a series of events that have to occur in order for the story to work. Add in choice and you risk "breaking" the story. What would LOTR been if Isildur had dropped the ring into the volcano.

This leaves you with two options. Try to fool the player into thinking the trivial choices they get matter , or weave a more open story where the choices do matter, but the story suffers as a result.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IMO, there needs to be at least 3 ways to finish the game: LS victory, DS victory, no victory (at least in K1 there was the illusion of the DS path being a seperate path). While I have not played it, I have heard that the classic cRPG Chrono Trigger is all about multiple ending possibilities. Also, VTM: Bloodlines has multiple endings as well. And Pirates!, while not properly a cRPG per se, explored the multiple ending thing quite well....options, such as marriage and military rank, were also incorporated quite nicely.

 

It does become more complicated with voice acting and 3d animation, I suppose, but the next game absolutely has to be less linear than K2 IMO. As I see it, the trick is to only have about one or two NPCs in the game that are absolutely essential to the main story...everyone else is expendable. if you get married, your spouse is little more than an informant that you get info from on a certain planet (again, think Pirates!). If one of those 2 essential NPCs gets killed off, then you get to complete the game without full victory (but that is not the only way to get that ending). Party members can be killed off and/or rotated out and faction affiliation determines what your overall NPC pool is anyway.

 

Don't make K3 Morrowind (true open-endedness) but give us more than one possible path and give more of an illusion of openendedness.

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

I still say doing another KotOR would be stupid. LA screwed over Obsidian with KotOR 2. If they agree to do another game with LA I guess Feargie likes getting screwed.

[Plano Skywalker]

I still say doing another KotOR would be stupid.  LA screwed over Obsidian with KotOR 2.  If they agree to do another game with LA I guess Feargie likes getting screwed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NWN2 is the make or break title for Obsidian....if that get that one right, they can afford another lucrative LA project (even if it has alot of difficulties).

 

hopefully, though, LA will listen to them this time.