Where the Endgame REALLY went wrong

[Drakonnen]

Exile doesn't come back on his own. He may not ever have come back at all, but for 'circumstances beyond his control.' With battle stress of this kind, he's all about avoidance. Kreia took on the job of gradually making him face the factors that caused his flight in the first place, but if she hadn't manipulated, he probably wouldn't have listened to her. That's what makes the story, what it's all about.

 

I don't think thats totally accuracte. Exile was asked to return, but he/she still made the choice whether or not to come back. And the Exile isn't about avoidance either. He/she went to face the Jedi council and left only after they made him/her. Once the Exile returns, he/she isn't all about avoidance. As we heard more than once, he/she is a natural leader and was acting as such throughout the game from the very begining.

 

but you're completely changing the story. cause it seems that nihilus is now the main baddie when kreia/darth traya is the person you really need to kill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Eh? You do have to kill Nihilus as it stands already, which is why its in the game as it is. He's the one you built up towards all game, not Kreia who you didn't know would betray you (well we all knew since it was so damned obvious, but aparently the Exile doesn't notice and we just couldn't get rid of her anyways). All it does is change the order.

[kalimeeri]

Kreia tells you herself that what she was doesn't matter. All she wants is to justify her life and her beliefs, and to leave something lasting behind.

 

While I don't agree with its abruptness, the published ending actually does fit better than killing the whole party off, however nobly they die. The people Exile trained revived and changed the Jedi order. That was what Kreia has spent her life fighting for, and she's running out of time. Revan is her successor, and she's afraid he can't finish the task alone, because she couldn't. And LS Exile goes off to help Revan on the next frontier.

 

That's why I question adding in all of the cut content. While I would like more game because I loved it and I felt shortchanged, some cuts may have been made for more reasons than time constraints. They may have been creative edits. If they change or muddle the theme, let it stand as it is--a subtle, intelligent work of an expert who was not permitted to polish and perfect. Witness Planescape:Torment.

[kalimeeri]

I don't think thats totally accuracte. Exile was asked to return, but he/she still made the choice whether or not to come back. And the Exile isn't about avoidance either. He/she went to face the Jedi council and left only after they made him/her. Once the Exile returns, he/she isn't all about avoidance. As we heard more than once, he/she is a natural leader and was acting as such throughout the game from the very begining.

 

I think it depends on who did the asking. A vague request by the Republic is more curious than threatening. And it might not be so easily blown off if it came from high enough up.

I'm not implying cowardice. Exile retains natural abilities and innate reactions to a threat, and a challenge. He's avoiding and suppressing anything to do with his past--unconsciously--as he did with the Force. As the game progresses, events and Kreia's support condition him to handle more, one step at a time.

 

But it's your right to disagree.

[AlanC9]

You do have to kill Nihilus as it stands already, which is why its in the game as it is.  He's the one you built up towards all game, not Kreia who you didn't know would betray you (well we all knew since it was so damned obvious, but aparently the Exile doesn't notice and we just couldn't get rid of her anyways). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, of course it's obvious to the player and not the Exile. It's supposed to be. We get all those cutscenes showing her working on her own agenda.

 

I think this is questionable RPG design, but maybe they didn't want people complaining about being betrayed.

 

And really, how badly does Kreia betray you? Besides making you kill her, of course.

[Darth Coran]

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag.

[Wynne]

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag. 

 

How about the world killer's mentor? The one who taught him how to be a badass when he was still in diapers?

 

Actually, all that stuff about Nihilus being so bad didn't interest me all that much for some reason. Maybe I'm just deadened to characters who seem like the boogeyman. He didn't frighten me that much when I was a kid, he didn't frighten me much now. Then again, I fell asleep out of boredom during the Exorcist, which people tell me is a fairly atypical reaction, so I may just be that jaded.

 

Kreia's amoral depth interested me far more. So too did the idea that the 'end baddie' actually turned out to be a longtime party member. I thought that was a damn cool idea. Much more so than, "the bad guy we keep talking about... is actually still the bad guy." Wow, shocking.

 

I did know something was screwed up with Kreia, don't get me wrong, and I never felt hatred for her like you'd feel for a typical boss villain, but she actually held my interest in this game--enough that I wanted to get to her to find the answers. Your mileage clearly varied, but I think for most of us, confronting her was a sort of climax. Could've been better, but was still pretty intriguing--more so than just a plain fight.

 

Of course, it might have been interesting if some deeds attributed to Nihilus had actually turned out to be the work of Darth Traya. After all, she was Sith.

 

...just because my idea wasn't super-fantastically-wow-that's-so-frigging-amazing dosn't mean you have to be sarcastic and put it down with THAT much venom... ...it's not like I disagreed with you or said you were crazy or anything...

 

Why must I be so misunderstood? *mournful expression*

 

Actually, I liked the idea of fighting Nihilus twice, once when he's weaker and again after he too has strengthened himself, and very much liked the idea of having the player choose their sacrifices from amongst their NPCs.

 

If you think about it, hearing their arguments, pleas for their own safety, venom or gratitude or begging you to let them die for you out of love or friendship... the potential is pretty dramatic and I find it highly enticing. It would have been awesome, very character developing, and minus the storm beast and mass shadow generators to slow you down, we could have a much-less-prone-to-exposition Kreia fight you in her prime.

 

Along the NPC idea again, how cool would it be to be able to kill your party members to get a humongous stat and/or experience bonus... that would be wonderfully tempting. Great for Dark characters to take advantage of, and Light characters to earn the love and doubled loyalty of their companions through.

 

Hey, I don't think he was being sarcastic, though... I could be wrong, but I didn't read it as sarcastic.

 

Well, I appreciate you reading my intentions right, but that would be she, actually. I know it's hard for the average gamer guy to wrap his head around, but there are actually some non-males who play games. You know, we strange people who bathe regularly and have round bouncy things on our chests... some of us play games. Go figure.

 

See?  You were an exile, but now that you have this cobbled together family of friends/tools surrounding you, you're not an exile anymore.  Way better.

 

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That's spot on how I feel, too.

 

Not the new recruit thing, though... I'd much rather play as the Revan and Exile. Otherwise, you have tons of possible combinations of what Revan and the Exile were (LSF/LSF, LSM/LSM, DSF/DSF, DSM/DSM, LSF/DSM, DSF/LSM, and so on--mega-confusing and dangerously buggy) or you have developer dictatorship (with them choosing Revan and the Exile, which shuts out a LOT of people --everyone who played Dark or female or both in either game.) Better to have two groups, or have two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile both as playable characters, perhaps leading different teams on different adventures, sort of like you do when you split forces on Onderon in KOTOR 2.)

[kalimeeri]

Not the new recruit thing, though... I'd much rather play as the Revan and Exile. Otherwise, you have tons of possible combinations of what Revan and the Exile were (LSF/LSF, LSM/LSM, DSF/DSF, DSM/DSM, LSF/DSM, DSF/LSM, and so on--mega-confusing and dangerously buggy) or you have developer dictatorship (with them choosing Revan and the Exile, which shuts out a LOT of people --everyone who played Dark or female or both in either game.) Better to have two groups, or have two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile both as playable characters, perhaps leading different teams on different adventures, sort of like you do when you split forces on Onderon in KOTOR 2.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Seconded. Big time.

[Drakonnen]

if she didn't "prattle" there are alot of things you would have missed,and if she didn't "prattle" at the end the games ending would've been that much more confusing,besides,it better than having the same amount of prattling done instead by some square headed ghost that God only knows what he's saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can make all the excuses you want for why she is how she is, but that doesn't change the fact that the description still fits appropriately, does it?

[Grant Dempsey]

Well, I appreciate you reading my intentions right, but that would be she, actually. I know it's hard for the average gamer guy to wrap his head around, but there are actually some non-males who play games. You know, we strange people who bathe regularly and have round bouncy things on our chests... some of us play games. Go figure. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoops. Sorry. :">

 

Not the new recruit thing, though... I'd much rather play as the Revan and Exile. Otherwise, you have tons of possible combinations of what Revan and the Exile were (LSF/LSF, LSM/LSM, DSF/DSF, DSM/DSM, LSF/DSM, DSF/LSM, and so on--mega-confusing and dangerously buggy) or you have developer dictatorship (with them choosing Revan and the Exile, which shuts out a LOT of people --everyone who played Dark or female or both in either game.) Better to have two groups, or have two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile both as playable characters, perhaps leading different teams on different adventures, sort of like you do when you split forces on Onderon in KOTOR 2.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I third that.

 

Actually, that idea about having two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile) going on separate adventures and such specifically appeals to me. I was thinking about something like that the other day, only the way I was thinking of it was that there would actually be a new main character for the third game with a new cast of supporting NPCs, but that the player would control Revan and the Exile separately various times throughout for whatever reasons.

[Darth Coran]

if she didn't "prattle" there are alot of things you would have missed,and if she didn't "prattle" at the end the games ending would've been that much more confusing,besides,it better than having the same amount of prattling done instead by some square headed ghost that God only knows what he's saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can make all the excuses you want for why she is how she is, but that doesn't change the fact that the description still fits appropriately, does it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

a good gentlemen knows when he is beaten,I tip my hat to you.

[kalimeeri]

Actually, that idea about having two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile) going on separate adventures and such specifically appeals to me. I was thinking about something like that the other day, only the way I was thinking of it was that there would actually be a new main character for the third game with a new cast of supporting NPCs, but that the player would control Revan and the Exile separately various times throughout for whatever reasons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Normally, I would agree. But I think there are plenty enough things about Exile and Revan that we don't know to keep the character aspect strong. If there is a time lapse between, we have a lot of catching up to do, especially with Revan. And new NPC's will all have their stories. But I think the resolution of the conflict should be given its due, and introducing and training and developing a new PC will take away from that. I want the end of the story to be everything that the first two games promised it to be, especially after K2. No excuses, however valid.

[Drakonnen]

Not the new recruit thing, though... I'd much rather play as the Revan and Exile. Otherwise, you have tons of possible combinations of what Revan and the Exile were (LSF/LSF, LSM/LSM, DSF/DSF, DSM/DSM, LSF/DSM, DSF/LSM, and so on--mega-confusing and dangerously buggy) or you have developer dictatorship (with them choosing Revan and the Exile, which shuts out a LOT of people --everyone who played Dark or female or both in either game.) Better to have two groups, or have two player-created characters (Revan and the Exile both as playable characters, perhaps leading different teams on different adventures, sort of like you do when you split forces on Onderon in KOTOR 2.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I third that.

 

I agree as well that I'd rather see Revan and the Exile as playable characters then someone new in the third game. Better to stick with the strong characters we already have and focus on the mystery of the True Sith, rather than having to learn about yet another new character. When you grow to like characters you want to see there continuing journey. Star Wars wouldn't be as fun if every movie they had new main characters.

 

In fact, I'd like to see some of the support characters form both games brought back as well. Yeah, I know Revan didn't want to take any of his/hers and Kreia told the Exile not to as well, but maybe some of them make their own choice to head out there on their own later, same as Revan and the Exile did (with appropriate explanations as to why they came and how they found out the details). Not all of them though of course! I think KOTOR2 already suffered from too many characters as it is.

 

HK, Mandalore/Canderous, T3, Bastila, one or two of the girls from K2 (Mira would be my personal pick with an option for romance this time ), and either Carth or Atton, but not both.

 

I liked Mission alot as well, but I can't see her having a reason to tag along into the True Sith Empire this time around, although it would be interesting to see an all grown up Mission, especially since I love the Twi'lek ladies

 

G0T0, Bao Dur, Zalabar, Jolee and Juhani were all rather forgettable/dull in my opinion, and I'd rather not see them make a return.

[Darth Coran]

Zaalbar was kinda cool,I could live without Jolee and Juhani(though since they are jedi they can give the support only a force-wielder can give,not to mention the melee damage of their lightsabers.)though When Bao-Dur becomes Jedi he is rather cool,though I notice he uses the force storm power as many times as possible with every battle,seems he still can't get the hate of malachor completely out :ph34r: He is rather quiet but he gives a solid combat,and he's one helluva double-bladed 'saberman,and thats all I need.

[Drakonnen]

Zaalbar was kinda cool,I could live without Jolee and Juhani(though since they are jedi they can give the support only a force-wielder can give,not to mention the melee damage of their lightsabers.)though When Bao-Dur becomes Jedi he is rather cool,though I notice he uses the force storm power as many times as possible with every battle,seems he still can't get the hate of malachor completely out :ph34r: He is rather quiet but he gives a solid combat,and he's ne helluva double-bladed 'saberman,and thats all I need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was nothing really wrong with Zalabar per se. I actually liked him. He's just one I see more likely to return to Kashyyyk and his tribe rather than somehow stumble into the True Sith War.

 

I found Bao Dur kind of annoying, but I never really did get him to full potential. I think I expereienced a bug during my first play through where after a little while when I would talk to him the only option I ever got anymore was "Nothing. Nevermind" or something along those lines.

 

Personally, I like seeing the females fighting next to me with their lightsabers blazing. After all, if I have to look at three characters, two of them might as well be nicely pixelated eye candy (particularly if wearing the Mesh dancer outfits I made which contain a decent amount of protection for reasons explained in their descriptions).

[Darth Coran]

Zaalbar was kinda cool,I could live without Jolee and Juhani(though since they are jedi they can give the support only a force-wielder can give,not to mention the melee damage of their lightsabers.)though When Bao-Dur becomes Jedi he is rather cool,though I notice he uses the force storm power as many times as possible with every battle,seems he still can't get the hate of malachor completely out :ph34r: He is rather quiet but he gives a solid combat,and he's ne helluva double-bladed 'saberman,and thats all I need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was nothing really wrong with Zalabar per se. I actually liked him. He's just one I see more likely to return to Kashyyyk and his tribe rather than somehow stumble into the True Sith War.

 

I found Bao Dur kind of annoying, but I never really did get him to full potential. I think I expereienced a bug during my first play through where after a little while when I would talk to him the only option I ever got anymore was "Nothing. Nevermind" or something along those lines.

 

Personally, I like seeing the females fighting next to me with their lightsabers blazing. After all, if I have to look at three characters, two of them might as well be nicely pixelated eye candy (particularly if wearing the Mesh dancer outfits I made which contain a decent amount of protection for reasons explained in their descriptions).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

thats not a bug,its just he has very little dialogue,but everybody is really easy to make a jedi,as male I managed to get everybody(excluding Bao-Dur and mira since I didn't have her)into a jedi before I met my first jedi master,I met disciple,went to the office of khoonda,than made him a jedi,and I had already gotten atton and Bao-Dur,but I gotta say,Using Visas and Handmaiden as jedi...it certainly is classy having an all-girl cabiret(sp?) of jedi. <_< (w00t) :D

[Darth Coran]

I just saw your updated versions of the outfits,hellooooo handmaiden! (w00t) (w00t)

[nixion]

I just wished there was more of a battle at Malachor like the battle at Star Forge

[Drakonnen]

I just wished there was more of a battle at Malachor like the battle at Star Forge

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I suppose I could agree to that to a certain degree. Putting the action that took place at Telos at Malachor instead, which would accomplish the Epic goal just the same while still pleasing those who think the game should end up on Malachor.

 

I still would think, in my personal opinion, that Nihilus would be better off as the last boss still if the action were moved to Malachor. You go to the planet to find Kreia after talking to Atris and go through all that with her, meanwhile Nihilus and his fleet have come there in search of the Exile, and must be dealt with before leaving. Then the Republic and Onderonians, and whomever else could still get it on the fight, coming to attack the Sith forces that have been drawn out of hiding, all of that battle taking place while the story is developing on the planet.

[metadigital]

Saberist, you certainly have some very sound ideas for plot, characters, leit-motifs and thematic foundations in your post; I commend your vision. I wonder what the LucasArts committee would do with it: a camel for your thoroughbred, I'd wager.

 

I think the main debate of this thread is moot.

Both the existing plot (with Kreia as the finale on your PCs journey of self-awareness) and the alternative with Nihilus as the monster-at-the-end-of-the-book have merit. The warring factions just place different emphasis on the size of the problem that Nihilus has become. Either way works, as long as you flesh your story out and give the audience something to empathise with. (And have the Exile face him without Force powers, too.)

 

The problem, as has been espoused ad nauseum here and elsewhere, is the total lack of production value to the end of the game. It is quite breathtaking just how spectacularly poorly it has been done. ESB analogy? How about story board stills flashed up from Luke's landing on the Cloud City until he falls into the air conditioning.

 

Omitted content; orphaned, seemingly random sub-plot segways (including one with a totally new character: the blinking remote, fercrissakes!) with meaningless interactions (why, exactly, did Kreia want Hanharr to kill Mira? Couldn't the gimp manage it with her 1000+ vitality points and managerie of dancing sabers? After instantly killing three Jedi Masters?). But wait: there's more! Literally a deus ex machina climax (the shadow generator) first made popular when special effects consisted of a guy in a beard making onomatopoetic noises backstage and Alexander The Great was in nappies. And an ending of where-are-they-now (set in the just-too-distant future-to-evoke-empathy), told with pages of dialogue?

 

I like that Kreia is an unknown quamtity; a slippery concept that you can't take at face value: very insidious, very Lord of Lies. 10 out of 10 for making a villain that wasn't cookie-cut, less several thousand for the appallingly clumsy handling of the denouement.

 

Even though I could tell Kreia was the final boss from before I bought the game, if it had been handled correctly that would have built tension. Like watching a scene from your favourite thriller that never fails to make your popcorn explode from your box.

 

The end was too linear and too contrived; regardless of the narrative, your alignment and any further actions taken. Here's an idea: have some consequences! Friends die, worlds collide, something -- like the half-baked good idea at Nar Shadarr where the beggar gets rolled because you gave him some cash.

 

What would I like to have seen? How about real ramifications of in-game choices. Like the choices in the cave on Korriban: how you chose to handle that encounter should have affected choices later in the game, so it was not just a shallow plot device used to set-up a single battle, but a deeply resonating, fateful turning point.

 

I would like to have seen some real choice in the Dantooine face-off, too. E.g. one option would let the Jedi Masters cut you off from the force (and then the game ends with "oops, the universe has been eaten by Nihilus, try again") and have some dissention between the Jedi Masters, depending on your choices.

 

Perhaps even the choices made regarding your past (the "what happened for you to be exiled from the order" dialogue tree after Peragus) determining who Traya is: Atris being the other possibility.

 

Bottom line: a squandered opportunity; there is not a lot worse than the disapointment of something that promises much and delivers little.

 

[Objulen]

I disagree. TSL really wasn't about epic. It was a shadowy tale of subtle war and intruige, which doesn't fit with epic conflicts. Nihils died first because he was a symbol more than anything else -- he embodied everything you were fighting. Sion represented the evil of the Force, a Sith Lord kept alive in constant pain by its power, enslaved to it, unable to exist without it. And Traya was the spider spinning the entire web, connecting the dots in the rushed ending. Despite this, dialog was the best option for the end, given the focus of the game was the Force and the Jedi who use it. There was no galactic threat that everyone was aware of, after all, and it didn't arise from nothing, rather following the climax of KotOR I.

 

The real flaws at the end was the rushed finale that ignored many, many plot elements. Too rushed, and too many lose ends. If you are DS, you don't even know what happened to your companions, and little would have been lost if everything except the G0-T0/Remote scene was cut from the ending before Sion. The elements of the conclusion that were removed from the final product would have made for a much more satisfying ending.

[Jivin]

I disagree. TSL really wasn't about epic. It was a shadowy tale of subtle war and intruige, which doesn't fit with epic conflicts. Nihils died first because he was a symbol more than anything else -- he embodied everything you were fighting. Sion represented the evil of the Force, a Sith Lord kept alive in constant pain by its power, enslaved to it, unable to exist without it. And Traya was the spider spinning the entire web, connecting the dots in the rushed ending. Despite this, dialog was the best option for the end, given the focus of the game was the Force and the Jedi who use it. There was no galactic threat that everyone was aware of, after all, and it didn't arise from nothing, rather following the climax of KotOR I.

 

The real flaws at the end was the rushed finale that ignored many, many plot elements. Too rushed, and too many lose ends. If you are DS, you don't even know what happened to your companions, and little would have been lost if everything except the G0-T0/Remote scene was cut from the ending before Sion. The elements of the conclusion that were removed from the final product would have made for a much more satisfying ending.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point there Objulen, and well said.

 

I have to agree really. I also wasn't dissapointed with any lack of 'star wars' feel or the lack of epic grandeur, in fact it was quite the opposite. I loved KOTOR1, but I personally enjoyed the style change for KOTOR2... the "shadowy tale" as Objulen put it worked well for me... and the characters were written differently such that they were a bit more mysterious and intruiging, and I thought was nice. Sure Obsidian didn't quite nail it, and perhaps for this sort of style a touch more character interaction would have been good, but to their merit I still thought it was a fresh change.

 

Even despite some minor shortcomings throughout it still all came down to that ending... and it certainly didn't deliver the goods I think the operative word is closure... or lack thereof. To end a game with a cliffhanger is one thing, but there were some things that shouldn't have been left as they were... regardless of the ending style.

 

If LA and the developer are interested in doing KOTOR3 properly (if at all), then really they have only given themselves more stuff they need to cover in K3 to conclude issues from the first 2 stories that should have been covered in their respective games. The stage is certainly set for a truly wonderful 3rd (and perhaps final) game if the developer is to the task... but that is a huge 'if'.

 

- Dan

[Alkera]

To me the Star Wars films represent simplified and quite clich

[metadigital]

I disagree. TSL really wasn't about epic. It was a shadowy tale of subtle war and intruige, which doesn't fit with epic conflicts. Nihils died first because he was a symbol more than anything else -- he embodied everything you were fighting. Sion represented the evil of the Force, a Sith Lord kept alive in constant pain by its power, enslaved to it, unable to exist without it. And Traya was the spider spinning the entire web, connecting the dots in the rushed ending. Despite this, dialog was the best option for the end, given the focus of the game was the Force and the Jedi who use it. There was no galactic threat that everyone was aware of, after all, and it didn't arise from nothing, rather following the climax of KotOR I.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Epic

ep

[metadigital]

To me the Star Wars films represent simplified and quite clich

[Plano Skywalker]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

some of those like where kreia is born and whether or not she had a force sensitive parent and her mentor are completely pointless. it has no effect on you whatsoever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

the bottom line is that this was a media tie-in cliffhanger that gave us no real resolution. IMO, that is fine.

 

But Kreia is the principle antagonist here (even though this tale only nominally ties into the trilogy) and getting to know more about her and her 2 dark lords pupils would have made the cliffhanger easier to take. That is all I am suggesting.