Force Wound/Void and Force Bonds

[dufflover]

One of the sticking points in this game which kinda confused people at the end was the whole thing about Kreia trying to "kill" the Force using the Force Void within, or something like that. Also the Jedi Masters had said you also were forming dominating force bonds to everyone around you without a deep connection first. However none of it was actually proved, as there are possiblities to counter the evidence supporting the whole force bonds and force wound thing. (note: this is about the deep controlling force bonds, not the KotOR 1 or Master/Student types).

 

Some examples:

Kreia was linked to you, pain and powers:

Well she is the betrayer, and could have faked the bond by channeling the pain (and powers) like she does her voice or like she did to threaten Atton...you get the idea.

 

Players around you are influenced by you:

Well, I suppose the game makes the point that your actions influence others, but that doesn't have to be the bond. A lot of the characters give their reasons why they follow you (and you bluntly ask Visas this). Besides, the fact that disagreements and stuff reduce influence sorta support this.

 

Visas around the dying Miraluka:

If the wound is caused by mass death then well, Visas didn't seem affected when Nihilus paid a visit.

 

And there was nothing to show that there was a wound in the force. You feel like a normal developing Jedi through the whole game. Not to mention the fact that nothing seems to be established at the end of the game (it seems to ignore this whole thing and focuses on the True Sith).

 

Everyone will have their take on the whole thing, but I suppose the main thing is do you believe the Force Wounds and Insta-Force Bonds (and you don't know it)? (or alternatively, if there's arguments both ways, do you think it all sounds phoney-baloney (sp? ), farfetched, unStar Wars, etc...)

 

For me, I don't think the force wound thing exists.

 

(you might wanna trim this if you're gonna quote it)

[Sepp]

If we go from the the assumption that the Force, like "exists," it probably is not too far-fetched to acknowledge that, as Yoda I think says, with the Force, nothing is impossible. Or at least only few things. And in theory. :D

 

It's the Force, after all. It cannot even be put into precise words, much like most "powers or Gods" in most religions - and it can much less be defined ala "this is possible" - "this not", etc.

[Dragonforce]

i thought it was a good idea, the "wound in the force" bit anyway, it gave the story an edge on the first game where it was much more simple

 

though i would prefer it if they steered clear of it, just becuase i'd rather see somthing original in KOTOR3

[AlanC9]

If it isn't true, and the PC is just an ordinary Jedi, then Kreia's actions don't make much sense.

[Grant Dempsey]

The way I see it, the fact that the storyline focused on the Exile's condition as a "wound" within the Force alone proved it. It just wouldn't make sense for the writers to focus so much on a plot point as being true, without ever explicitly stating -- or really even strongly implying -- that it was false, then expect the player to come to a completely different conclusion about it. The game never really explicitly presented any particular opposing point of view on this issue either: It was pretty much just a given fact by the end of the game that the Exile was a "dead spot" within the Force. For that reason alone, I do believe it.

 

Regarding the bonds that the Exile could supposedly form with others through the Force, though... I'm not entirely sure. I think it was pretty much intentionally left open to interpretation. It was clear that the Exile was very "gifted" in forming such bonds very easily, since that was even what led him to sever his ties to the Force at Malachor V to begin with. I'm thinking more in relation to his effect on his companions, though.

 

On the one hand, there were the Jedi Masters, claiming that the Exile was subconsciously affecting and changing the wills and natures of others through his connections with them, for which there was much evidence (such as party members commenting on how they seemed to fight alongside the Exile against whomever the Exile chose to attack -- even innocent bystanders -- before even consciously realizing they were doing it). Were the Jedi Masters truly a reliable source for such information, however, or could they simply not see how powerful and influential a "leader" could be?

 

On the other hand, there was the Exile's companions, whose word was that they were following him knowingly and willingly, that they weren't just being drawn in involuntarily, and that the Exile's greatness stemmed not from the Force, but from his power as a "leader". Was that really a word that could be trusted, though, or did they only really believe they were following him because they wanted to, while, in actuality, they were being drawn in?

 

I do think this issue was pretty much intentionally left open to interpretation.

[dufflover]

Kreia's actions don't make much sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point I'm trying to raise is that Kreia was working towards nothing (Working off a false theory)

 

 

I haven't seen the Matrix in the while, and no, I didn't really get that movie in the end, but think how Morpheus believed that Neo was some special saviour; but as Neo tells Morpheus, the whole prophecy was a fib.

 

 

It just wouldn't make sense for the writers to focus so much on a plot point as being true, without ever explicitly stating -- or really even strongly implying -- that it was false

Maybe I should've tweaked the question some more. I guess it's pretty clear that the writers made it exist, but would you want to disprove it?

[Grant Dempsey]

Maybe I should've tweaked the question some more. I guess it's pretty clear that the writers made it exist, but would you want to disprove it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really understand the question here, I guess. Do you mean, would I have wanted it to be false for some reason or another, or what? I thought it made for a really interesting plot point and added to the storyline, so I don't think I'd've wanted it to have all been some delusion on the parts of Kreia and the Jedi Masters or something.

[witchzenka]

After playing this last time, I guess I've come to conclude Kreia may not have intended the death of the Force - that it was all part of the test she was giving the Exile.

[Hey Steve]

The evidence suggests that the Exile has some special ability to form force bonds, and that he has one with Kreia. However, the evidence is also pretty conclusive that Kreia flat-out lied about it being fatal if one of them died.

[Hey Steve]

After playing this last time, I guess I've come to conclude Kreia may not have intended the death of the Force - that it was all part of the test she was giving the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My budding theory on this is that Kreia may have set this up as a kind of "win-win" scenario. Kreia hates overreliance/dependence on the force. If she wins (and I guess kills the Exile in a special way), the Force ends, and no one can depend on it. If she loses, the Exile has proven him/herself and (now that Kreia has arranged for all of the competing Sith/Jedi masters to be killed) the Exile is left as more or less the last master, and can found a new order (Sith or Jedi) that doesn't depend on the Force. (since the Exile knows how to live without it).

 

Though it is possible that the whole death of the force thing was just another lie.

[kalimeeri]

I think bonding is a critical part of the overall story. I'll put spoiler tags on, just for safety's sake.

 

Exile may be the key to the 'true Sith' problem.

 

 

Revan studied bonding extensively, according to Kreia. He created bonds by artificial means at Malachor, and turned Jedi into Sith.

He studied the Exile in particular, whether it is actually stated or not. HK says Revan mentioned Exile, specifically expressing that the bonding might be Exile's downfall. That leads to the conclusion that Exile naturally possesses an unusual affinity, and as such, would be an asset if properly used. Revan already did exactly that (per HK), and I don't think it's over yet. If Revan doesn't need his droids or his ship or can't chance the vulnerability of his party members, he's going to need SOME help. If he and Exile can convert enemies into allies...

 

 

 

Exile's other main attribute also plays a part. He cannot be easily detected because of the disconnection from the Force. A Jedi would be discovered and killed in short order, but the true Sith probably won't even see Exile coming.

 

 

And what more fitting way to get back at them than to use one of their own techniques against them? The 'wound in the Force' or the 'void' was their baby, but probably any of them who reached expert level self-destructed, like Kreia said Nihilous would eventually starve. Or maybe they haven't yet ... but they're looking to our galaxy to sustain themselves.

 

 

 

As far as the 'lethal' bond, no, I don't believe it exists or ever did. Kreia merely lied about it to get Exile to take her along.

 

 

None of the historians or Jedi Masters has ever heard of it, and in fact it is proven false in the end. There was some indication that an alignment change might break a bond, but Kreia didn't. She'd already been there and done that, both sides; she was staunchly neutral. At that point Exile's feelings about her probably hadn't changed extensively enough, either. Although she did some questionable stuff to his party, by now Exile knows she's a manipulator. She is still his teacher (both times). There was still a bond, and the only sure way to break it was for her to die. So she forced a stand-off, knowing Exile would have to defend himself. It was no big deal to her--IMO she was quite frail and her health was failing. But she held on so she could do this one last thing for Revan.

 

 

 

I don't know about taking Kreia's statement about killing the Force too literally. Since all life is connected through it, what would be the point? Her pal Revan is trying to fix the galaxy, not annihilate it. And what would be the point of creating a 'new order' of Jedi through Exile? She may be referring to destroying the way it's perceived and used, and the way it uses in return. She hates that it 'balances' the 'verse by war and killing, without care for the beings that are lost or what side they are on. She wants that power removed, to let choice be the deciding factor. That's why Exile is beautiful to her--he can live without the Force, and it is his choice whether to use it or not ... as a tool. But it doesn't control him. IMO it's the control she's trying to destroy, not the Force itself.

[dufflover]

He cannot be easily detected because of the disconnection from the Force.  A Jedi would be discovered and killed in short order, but the true Sith probably won't even see Exile coming.

Yes, there is evidence to show that people can sense less of him (or differently anyway). A supporting thing is that Visas was the only one who could detect you - and she pretty refined in her force sense. However, it's not like any of the Masters (except Vash) and Bastila

(although she still wears Jedi robes & I'd like her to still be Jedi (I've only seen the Male/LS Revan), there's no proof she still is one)

, were detected. Yes, they were on planets with heaps life and all the reasons given in the game, but when you look at the whole scope of detecting a force user, the Exile did not display any exceptional properties of being hidden.

[Grant Dempsey]

I don't know about taking Kreia's statement about killing the Force too literally.  Since all life is connected through it, what would be the point?  Her pal Revan is trying to fix the galaxy, not annihilate it.  And what would be the point of creating a 'new order' of Jedi through Exile?  She may be referring to destroying the way it's perceived and used, and the way it uses in return.  She hates that it 'balances' the 'verse by war and killing, without care for the beings that are lost or what side they are on.  She wants that power removed, to let choice be the deciding factor.  That's why Exile is beautiful to her--he can live without the Force, and it is his choice whether to use it or not ... as a tool.  But it doesn't control him.  IMO it's the control she's trying to destroy, not the Force itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be inclined to agree with this. However, the fact that the Exile survived his "loss" seemed to be potrayed as a rare phenomenon in itself. After all, as I recall, Darth Nihilus' power -- his "feeding" -- was based on severing connections between life and the Force (which was essentially what happened to the Exile, though the Exile severed his own ties himself and by "choice" instead of external force) and feeding on the death resulting from that loss. I think it was still a given that there were many who would die as a result from being cut off from the Force as the Exile had been.

 

Personally, I'm sort of inclined to believe that "the death of the Force" was basically a far-away dream to Kreia, an ideal. I have no doubt that she truly did despise the control the "will" of the Force wielded over the galaxy, but I don't really think she actually planned on making any real galactic-scale attempt to spread the echoes from Malachor V to deafen the galaxy to it. At least, not over the course of the game. She recognized that, although spreading the echoes could very well "free" many living things from the Force, it would also undoubtedly kill just as many, if not many more. Regardless, it was no doubt the Exile's "spiritual" strength in surviving his loss that drew Kreia to him.

 

During one of her individual conversations with Disciple, she basically said as much, acknowledging it as a horrible thing that needed to be ended. She added that she didn't seek to win her war through death and destruction, but instead through her ideals and her teachings, and that she sought a victory that would reflect her ideals and her teachings proving themselves true, not a victory that would reflect her power or a willingness to needlessly destroy. She also said as much, in a different context, during the Dark Side version of the "reunion of the Jedi Masters" scene at the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine: She spoke of how she would've much preferred to defeat the Jedi Masters without striking a blow, to defeat them by proving their teachings were wrong and misguised as she had believed them to be.

 

I think Kreia's ultimate goal over the course of the game was quite simply to train the Exile to reach the fullest of his potential. "Killing" the Force was simply a part of the galaxy she envisioned in accordance with her own philosophies.

[Iseo Tiakan]

After playing this last time, I guess I've come to conclude Kreia may not have intended the death of the Force - that it was all part of the test she was giving the Exile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My budding theory on this is that Kreia may have set this up as a kind of "win-win" scenario. Kreia hates overreliance/dependence on the force. If she wins (and I guess kills the Exile in a special way), the Force ends, and no one can depend on it. If she loses, the Exile has proven him/herself and (now that Kreia has arranged for all of the competing Sith/Jedi masters to be killed) the Exile is left as more or less the last master, and can found a new order (Sith or Jedi) that doesn't depend on the Force. (since the Exile knows how to live without it).

 

Though it is possible that the whole death of the force thing was just another lie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Another way of thinking about it: If the Exile fails the test, the Force is dead, and the "true Sith" are no longer a threat. If the Exile passes the test, he's capable of stopping the "true Sith."

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Heres something interesting to mull over..

 

If Yoda says size makes no difference, then why cant Jedi move planets about?

[dufflover]

If Yoda says size makes no difference, then why cant Jedi move planets about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In all the movies so far, the larger or tougher something is to move, the more force strength it takes (same as more strength in lifting bigger things). Yoda had to concentrate mighty hard to keep that pylon or whatever it was from crushing Obi Wan and Anakin in Episode II.

It's not the person's size, it's the objects' size that matters.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In all the movies so far, the larger or tougher something is to move, the more force strength it takes (same as more strength in lifting bigger things). Yoda had to concentrate mighty hard to keep that pylon or whatever it was from crushing Obi Wan and Anakin in Episode II.

It's not the person's size, it's the objects' size that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That isnt what Yoda meant though. He meant the difference between an Xwing and a rock. Luke could easily move a rock and even R2. But he couldnt move the Xwing because it was "too big".Remember "Only different in your mind" Yoda said that the size of the object dosnt matter so why cant Yoda move planets around?

 

Thats another thing. the Pylon is lighter than an Xwing. Do you think yoda is telling porkies?

[Sepp]

Do you think Yoda couldn't move planets around?