How high should the exile's skills be?

[Simon Appleton]

Second time through, I'm playing a sentinel to try out some skills (also made repair a class skill through my first feat) - I really want to mess around with the workbench in particular. First time, I just maxed out Persuasion with a dumb Guardian.

 

Are there are any guidelines as to how high to raise skills? For example, in kotor1, I think the main character needed around 17 repair to fully upgrade HK-47.

 

Is there any effective upper limit to a skill, beyond which it is unnecessary?

 

I maxxed out persuasion in both games - is this necessary?

 

Are there any useless skills for the exile? I'm not taken by stealth. I'd be happy to take a skill specialist along most of the time; I'm most interested in occaisions when only the exile's skill matters. (e.g. Apparently this is true for repair for breaking down items.)

 

In kotor1, I might pass on awareness and treat injury, but they seem to help in some dialogue and quests in kotor2.

 

I'm playing on hard, which apparently is relevant.

[witchzenka]

I always do persuasion, it can save you credits and open up conversation options not available even with Force Persuade.

My "needed" skills are Persuade, Repair, Computer, and Awareness - anything else I can usually find someone else to do, though a Sentinel could have plenty of space for Treat Injury and something else too. (I always take a little security and demolitions too, at least for getting goodies from Peragus.)

[Janson]

I was exactly the same as you - played dumb Jedi Guardian fist time round, Jedi Sentinel second time round. Have fun - it's awesome when you have lots of skills, so many new options become available!

 

Security, Persuasion, Awareness, Repair and Treat Injury are important. I also recommend you have an INT of 16 to make sure you can fully upgrade T3. Other than that, I received enough skill points each level up to keep all my skills maxed, and had no problems. You need a minimum 12 awareness, 3 treat injury, and the rest need to be fairly high - I don't have any specific numbers.

 

Stealth is pretty useless. So is demolitions, since so many other people have this skill and it rarely comes into any quests. Other than that, just keep computer/security/repair/awareness/persuasion maxed out and you should be fine. I took a feat to make repair a class skill.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Have 16 int by level 8 (start it at 14).

 

Buy demolitions cross class at generation and the other cross class when your next feat comes up (or after force regen).

 

Deceide early on whether or not you want to have heal. In which case leave treat injury at 10 (which is enough for certain dialogue options).

 

I never bother with stealth. And persuade can be left at 10 until after Telos.

 

You should have enough skill points to raise everything else. And by the end of the game you will have skills that are in the 30's (40's with mods).

[KungFuFerret]

I go for Awareness, Persuasion, Security, Demolitions, and Security. I usually don't start working on Repair until later on.

 

I don't like having to constantly switch to open containers or doors, or to disarm mines. Especially if I go into solo mode.

 

 

As for upgrading T3, you can start with a 14 INT and simply boost it up either with an implant, or more easily with Force Valor. You can have Kreia get it (since she makes a good buff bot) and use it just outside the Ebon Hawk. Then run inside and find T3 real quick in the Communication room.

[hawk]

I usually don't spend skills in Persuade above say 16 or 17. When playing LS, Treat Injury is very important but you don't have to go further then say 12 or 13. The more skill points you spend in Repair, the more components you recieve when you break down items. Other than that Repair and Computer use can be used to upgrade T3. Be warned that on the Ravager and Malachor V you need a high security skill to open up the lockers.

[Philistine]

Playing as a Sentinel with 16 INT, you could keep all 6 of your class skills maxed out throughout the game. I wouldn't recommebd that, though. I would take Demolitions and Repair as class skills with my first two feats, then work from there.

 

I like to keep Persuade and Security maxed out - Persuade is the one skill your party members can't handle for you, and late in the game you're apt to find locks with crazy DCs. Awareness (mines), Computer Use (upgrading T3), Demolitions (mines again), and Repair (workbench) all go to 20 as fast as I can get them there. Treat Injury gets the leftovers (it's not a priority if you take the Force Heal powers - except for certain quests, but they don't seem to need a very high skill to pass), and Stealth gets one point - at most - through the entire game (first, it's not that useful, and second, I always seem to end up with tons of +STEALTH items).

 

But you can do it any way you like. It's not as if the game is extremely difficult... when/if you can get it to run, anyway.

[jedi mad hatter]

Do big items like weapons or armour get broken when you bash lockers? Because I found that there was so much loot around, the only time I needed to pick locks was when I was too weak to bash them. I didn't really care too much if I destroyed stuff inside, otherwise.

[KungFuFerret]

Early on, I let Bao-Dur, and Kreia handle repair. You're running around enough, and workbenches are easily accessable at that point. I also let Kreia handle the Treat Injury related options as well.

 

My last priorities are Repair, Stealth, and Treat Injury, in that order. LS, or DS, you can use Master Heal without too much fuss. Kreia's a great buff bot, and she has the benefit of boosting the XP you get with her in party. I break down the medkits for components instead, because by midgame, you have so many darned VPs that it's a drop in the bucket. :D

 

The reason I take Demolition myself is not only do I dislike having to switch to another character who has it, but every character that DOES have it, is a subpar character when it comes to combat. With the exception of HK-47.

 

And since even with a super high security skill, you're bound to run into some that you simply have to open with a mine.

 

Statement: Crude, but effective!

[Janson]

The problem with Repair is that when using the workbenches, I found that so long as my character was in the party, their repair skill was used...not Bao-Dur's or Kreia's. So when breaking down items, I only receieved one component from them.

 

Also, with quests requiring treat injury, you can't get another character to do it for you...for example, with the sick man on Nar Shaddaa. So again, you need at least some treat injury skill to be able to cure him.

 

The biggest reason to have security is that you get experience points every time you successfully open a lock. Not to mention that even if you manage to pick up enough items off bodies, you can still break down ones you find in containers into more components that you'd get by bashing the containers open.

[Darth Frog]

You need to decide what is important for you and plan accordingly. All skills except for Persuade play a role in crafting, but for that you can always use your NPCs. So here are some thoughts regarding skills for the Exile:

 

Demolition: plan for DC35 by the time you leave the Harbinger and go through the fuel pipe to the hangar area of Peragus. This is where you encounter the first Average Mines (DC35 to recover), and you cannot simply come back for the mines later because

(1) the game script will not let you proceed until you have eliminated the mines one way or other

(2) there is not a whole lot of 'later' in this level anyway.

The only boost that you can count on at this point in time is the Harness from the mining tunnels (+1). Class skills are capped at LEVEL+3 and at that point in time you are about level 7 (meaning max skill is 10), so you need to plan for INT16 if you do not find a nice item with a Demolition boost: DC35 - take 20 - skill 10 - Valour 1 - Harness 1 = 3 INT mods. Similar considerations apply in the mining tunnels a bit earlier: recovering Minor Mines requires an effective skill rank of 10 but in the tunnels you are around level 3. DC30 - roll 20 - skill 6 - Valour 1 - Harness 1 = 2 INT mods. If you have less than 2 INT mods then you have to hit level 4 before you can recover the mines. With careful planning this is possible but it is not trivial. The area will be sealed once you leave it on the other side, so you cannot simply go back later to reap the mines.

 

Security: most stuff you encounter will be DC26 for a long time. There are some harder locks (first is a DC39 on the Harbinger) but you can use NPCs for pretty much all of the hard locks and the Exile does not really need high security skill. Tunnelers will give +6, so the Harbinger lock above would be possible with an effective skill rank of 13 (since out of combat you always take 20 on the die roll).

 

Demolition and Security are useful for the Exile because of the extra XP from recovering mines and picking locks. Demolition is an alternative to opening locks without becoming unstealthed, but picking locks gives more XP and it is strange anyway that the use of explosives does not cancel stealth, as the BOOM from the explosives would normally attract lots of attention.

 

Repair: breaking down items without loss requires an effective skill rank of 20, as does unlocking T3 fully (could also be 21, or my game is just glitchy). Apart from these aspects and some malicious scripting the skill has no significance, as it affects only the cost (# parts) of repairs but does not make a qualitative difference.

 

Computer: same as Repair, except that it is not needed for breaking down items. E.g. it affects only the cost (# spikes) of computer actions and would be insignificant if it were not for malicious scripting.

 

Persuade: having sufficient skill rank gives you more options and more XP. Only the PC can have the skill, so it is pretty much a must even for Guardians. Hard data on skill checks is scarce, though.

 

Treat Injury: useless except for malicious scripting.

 

Stealth: if you want to use Stealth with your main character then plan to spend a goodish number of skill points; one or two points won't cut it for long, even with booster items. Apart from that, the NPCs are better at stealthing and the main character does not *need* it (e.g. if you want to recover mines in peace then you can simply switch to solo, kill the opposition, then recover the mines).

 

Awareness: only very low skill ranks are needed outside conversations, since the opposition does not use mines harder than Average. It may be possible that skill rank 0 is sufficient outside conversations but I have not checked it out.

 

BTW, you don't have to play a nerd in order to get sufficient skills. A Guardian starting with 14 or 15 INT can do everything that a Sentinel can but it is actually fun to use (e.g. Force Jump). The Sentinel is soooo pedestrian ...

[Janson]

I had a Guardian with average intelligence...you just get so few class skills that either you have to sacrifice a lot of combat feats (which are useful early on) to make them class skills, or you have to use up lots of skill points...which you get very few of as a Guardian. No, I think if you're going to go for skills, you may as well be a Sentinel.

 

As for the mines...the alternative is to have stun droid (which is useful anyway considering how many droids there are in this game) and remote-detonate them that way. You don't get the XP but it's definitely a consideration if you want to spend skill points elsewhere.

 

And I still think awareness is pretty important, especially for getting/completing certain quests. I've found it more useful than persuasion in conversation (again, you can usually use force persuade instead of persuasion, which doesn't net you any DS points either).

[Darth Frog]

I had a Guardian with average intelligence...you just get so few class skills that either you have to sacrifice a lot of combat feats (which are useful early on) to make them class skills, or you have to use up lots of skill points...which you get very few of as a Guardian. No, I think if you're going to go for skills, you may as well be a Sentinel.

 

The Guardian needs just one 'skill' feat more than the Sentinel (Guardian: Computer, Repair, Security; Sentinel: Demolition, Repair). Since the Guardian gets one more feat than the Sentinel, early (lvl 2) it is pretty much a wash. Also, only Security and Demolition need to be taken very early, the other feats can wait until you leave Telos (e.g. level 13). So it is even more of a wash.

 

A drawback of Sentinels is that they have less HP than Guardians. This can be compensated by taking the 3 Toughness feats but Guardians can also take these feats and get even more HP. But this does not matter a whole lot unless you want to go solo or fight fair (e.g. no shields, stims, medpacks, grenades etc.).

 

An advantage of Sentinels is that they get one more skill point per level, but that is just about 30 points over the course of the whole game and less than 20 during the phase where it matters. If you assign skill points willy-nilly then these extra points won't be enough, and if you assign them as needed then even an INTified Guardian will have more than enough. My lvl 18 Guardian has currently 20 skill points left waiting to be used for something, and so far he has recovered every mine and opened every lock and passed every skill check including Airspeeder and T3 upgrades, except for one Treat Injury 12 check on Dantooine where Kreia did the honours.

 

There are three things that make the Sentinel unplayable for me:

(1) no Force Jump

(2) the concept is flawed

(3) no Force Jump

 

Obsidian eliminated almost all differences between the classes and on top of that they made the game so easy that it does not really matter what you do, so point (2) is more a conceptual thing. But a class that fights like a Consular and casts spells like a Guardian is anathema to me.

[KungFuFerret]

Somewhere around here I have a comparative listing for a 15 guardian vs 15 sentinel, and the difference in VP and FP is only like 30.

 

One thing the Sentinel does get is +3 CON for LS, +3 DEX for DS. The Guardian gets +3 STR for LS, of 1d8 for DS. So the difference is even narrower then it is in KOTOR.

 

KOTOR 2 seems to be lacking the extra feat and BAB progression of the Guardian though. But it's also lacking the higher saves for the Sentinel.

 

Unfortunately, the only selling point of the Guardian class is Force Jump due to its KOTOR 2 gimpification. Combatwise they're fairly identicle except a Guardian can be stunned and can be knocked back with power and critical attacks, melee or ranged. A Sentinel is immune. The only other difference is the Guardian gets Medium Armor for free. The Sentinel also gets Shien form if you finish before being able to get your prestige class. The Guardian gets Ataru. Shien is vastly superior to Ataru. The only form better then Shien, is Juyo, which you can get if you go Weapons Master/Sith Marauder.

 

As it stands without mods, a Sentinel->Weapons Master/Sith Marauder is at the least, equally as powerful as a Guardian->Weapons Master/Sith Marauder. With mods to fix the BABs, the Guardian would once again resume it's title as the melee king, but any kind of difficulty mod to make enemy jedi as effective as they were in KOTOR would still lend the Sentinel a HUGE advantage.

 

The dinstinction between the 3 was so much more pronounced in KOTOR. I wished they'd maintained that in KOTOR 2. Fortunately, there's a good distinction between the prestige classes at least.

 

I do believe Aurora made a mod to fix the BABs and feat progression, but I'm not sure if she set it to follow KOTOR's design set or not.

 

 

As for the DCs, set the game to difficult. You'll miss a LOT in the beginning no matter what class you pick.

[Guest Damar Stiehl]

16 Int to upgrade T3? Why?

 

Just pump up your Repair a bit, and then push it up to the necessary levels with Exchange/Czerka Utility Belt and Master Valor.

[Shizuka2]

Treat injury opens up some nice implants for you once it reaches the mid-thirties to mid-forties, but that's usually too late in the game to be actually useful.

[Jeremiah]

16 Int to upgrade T3? Why?

 

Just pump up your Repair a bit, and then push it up to the necessary levels with Exchange/Czerka Utility Belt and Master Valor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the 16 intelligence is only needed to open up a conversation option to find out how T3 ended up with the Exile and a chance for a holo cameo of a KOTOR1 NPC. Force Valor can also open up that option if the PC has an intelligence of 14 to begin with.

[Janson]

I really wanted to open up the T3 conversation so I had 16 INT (plus it gives you more skill points anyway...)

[Darth Frog]

Somewhere around here I have a comparative listing for a 15 guardian vs 15 sentinel, and the difference in VP and FP is only like 30.

 

In some battles (e.g. Handmaiden quintuple) you have to tank a bit, and these 30 HP could mean that you last another round. Of course, it only matters if you want to fight fair, without shields etc. and without knocking them off the mat (Whirlwind).

 

However, I think it would be better to discuss the overall merits of Guardian and Sentinel in a separate thread. In KotOR 2 the difference doesn't matter anyway (except for Frog Jump).

 

As for the DCs, set the game to difficult.  You'll miss a LOT in the beginning no matter what class you pick. 

 

Hehe, read my post again. I am playing on 'difficult' and my Guardian has passed every skill check.

 

The only impossible things so far are a couple of poison mines on Goto's yacht: they cannot even be spotted with 30 Awareness, so whatever their DC is, recovering them is not really feasible because of the skill rank cap of LEVEL + 3 (second planet, so my main char is lvl 19 and NPCs are lvl 18).

 

The highest possible INT mod at that time is 6 (INT 18 at creation, 4 increments); 3 skill points can be gotten from feats and 2 from Master Valour, for a maximum skill rank of (19+3) + 6 + 3 + 2 = 33 without items. Given that the mines cannot even be spotted with 30 Awareness it seems likely that the DC for disarming is somewhere in the 60s, so even an absolutely skill-maxed character would need on the order of 10..20 skill points from items to disable the mines. In an earlier game I had items worth 12 points of Demolition total and I think the Ossus Robe from Onderon gives 4 INT, so it may not be absolutely impossible to disable/recover the mines but you have to sacrifice a lot for that ability and you still need a lot of luck (items). For practical purposes there is little that can be done except disarming those mines the 'Guardian' way, by walking over them.

[tu2thepoo]

[edit]

oh jeez, wrong thread.

[Janson]

So, Darth Frog, how high did you have to make your Guardian's INT?

 

I always remember playing as a Soldier in KotOR1...even if you had an INT that should've given bonuses (i.e. an INT of 12 should give you an extra skill point per level) I only got 1 skill point per level. That was painful.

[Darth Frog]

So, Darth Frog, how high did you have to make your Guardian's INT?

 

INT 12 is necessary for recovering the minor mines in the mining tunnels on Peragus, regardless of class. For recovering the average mines in the fuel pipes INT 16 is needed, again regardless of class. Although it could be INT 15 if Knight Valour is available at lvl 7, not sure about that. See the math in an earlier post.

(Note: T3 can recover the average mines in the fuel pipes, so it is not really necessary to go beyond INT 12.)

 

My current Guardian started with INT 15 because I wanted him to be able to do everything that was necessary and as much as possible of the other things (e.g. where you could opt to have an NPC do the stuff). I picked Guardian instead of Sentinel mostly because of Frog Jump, and because I still wanted to be able to defeat the five Handmaidens without fighting dirty.

 

Sentinel has an advantage in the old military base on Telos, though, because there is no guarantee that a stun immunity item can be found and there is no guarantee that the Guardian won't fail the save against the paralyzer beams of the droids three or four times in a row (not likely but not impossible either), which would spell death. But then you still have two companions that can bail you out, and one of the Heal spell upgrades cancels stun; not sure if it is available at that point but may be worth a look. The Force link with Kreia opens interesting buffing opportunities.

 

I always remember playing as a Soldier in KotOR1...even if you had an INT that should've given bonuses (i.e. an INT of 12 should give you an extra skill point per level) I only got 1 skill point per level. That was painful.

 

IIRC, in d20 you get extra an extra skill point for every even INT mod, so you need INT 14 to get one extra. So I think the original KotOR got it right and the KotOR 2 scheme is another gimpification. The ability to use a Guardian for a skill-oriented character is one sign of this.

 

I think a well-done soldier class should be really good at fighting and rather poor at skills. Otherwise there would be no give-and-take and no reason to ponder over choices.

[KungFuFerret]

For practical purposes there is little that can be done except disarming those mines the 'Guardian' way, by walking over them.

 

That brings back some memories. Both from KOTOR, and NWN. :D

[Janson]

I play the pen'n'paper D20 game, so I've been getting confused re. skill points...a Guardian/Soldier gets 4 skill points per level + INT modifier. Of course, in the computer version there are less skills, so I guess the basic 4 skill points aren't needed...still, I'm presuming that you get at least 1 skill point per level up, so surely there ought to be a difference between a character with an INT of 10 (+0) and a character with an INT of 12 (+1)...

[Jeremiah]

Well the Guardian way of disarming poison mines is pretty good if one casts Knight Valor before going over them . That was the best way to go through the Korriban gas floors and the ones on Malachor.