Should games be obvious ?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One of the things that I've noticed about KOTOR II is that you have to work for your crumbs :D

 

This isnt KOTOR where your NPCs will "look like they want to talk" every so often and you will be fed as much story as you levels allow.

 

No KOTOR II is a much more complex beast events will trigger new conversation options, though in most cases you wont be specifically told go speak to NPC XXX. You will have to work it out for yourself. Things you discuss with certain NPCs will open up new options with others and gaining influence or changing alignment will cause your party to have "moments".

 

(Some companions are easy to influence but others have very few options. Hats off to anyone who trained Bao Dur as a Jedi without a walkthrough because there are so few points of influence with him). Even after 3 games I still cant get him to open up.

 

Because the background story is told by your companions it's pretty essential that if you want to make some semblence of sense as to what is going on you need to find these things out.

 

For example I only found out the whole reason why the Ebon Hawk was around on my third game..

 

It's taken me 3 and 1/2 games to totally piece the story together from all the NPCs (some are alignment/gender specific).

 

compared to KOTOR which I played once and in view of the big revelation never really felt like playing again.

[Jad'en]

Yup, this is aimed at much older people

[213374U]

Yep, it seems a high replayability was one of the main objectives of the design team.

 

And thank GAWD you didn't make this a poll. "

[Drakron]

The main story must be obvious, if the main plot is not explained during the nomal game then its not a good story and that includes little details.

 

Now secondary plots can be "hidden" and require the players to explore convertation paths with NPCs and doing some side quests but the secondary plot sould not be supporting of the main plot, if anything the main plot sould be supporting the secondary plots.

 

Any story that requires going around milking NPC dry of convertation paths and doing all side quests avaible to make sense is not a good job, its just a weak excuse for "replayability".

[Aegis]

I don't think you should get everything for free, but I don't think you should have to play the game through ten times and then piece together the information to see the whole picture. It should be possible to get all the information you need in one go, but it should require dedication. One could argue that this is the case right now (I wouldn't entierly agree), but the dedication doesn't make much sense. As you said, influencing Bao-Dur without a walkthrough is hard. I have only found a few points where I could affect it, and even then only by saving/reloading and resolving a problem in a different way. It's just too random for my taste. The quests in the original KotOR was a good way of doing this, they were just a bit too easy and there was only one per character (if even that).

 

Influence with Mandalore was implemented fairly well, though.

For example, he wants you to support the general rather than the queen. Do it and you gain influence, don't and you either lose or don't gain anything. That felt logical, though I still don't think people should open up just because you resolve a problem the way they would've

.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Mandalore is pretty easy to read. It's not likely you will get much out of him unless you are a Sith or Grey Jedi though.

 

Bao Dur is just very hard to read. It's obvious that he's into techie things so letting look over your work etc.

 

The difficulty is that you have to have in the party at such times. Total shock doing the Kinrath caves and him piping up about the devices and taking them appart. That was a new one on me.

 

Which is kinda what I was trying to get at about the balance between obvious and not.

[Volourn]

"One of the things that I've noticed about KOTOR II is that you have to work for your crumbs"

 

Huh? You don't have to work for it in KOTOR2. All you are doing is spamming characetr with point and click. It's not deep or complex. At all. In fact, it's very simplified. You want to know a certain npc let them influence you. It's dumb. If they don't like you and don't want to talk to you; why are they even on the ship/mission with you? Lame. That's not depth; that's a lack of logic. If I don't like certain characters I should be able to either kill them or kick them off; but nooo ... Even though I knew a certain woman was up to no good I was stuck with her the entire game. Whatever.

 

 

Outisde of Kreia, and ever her, you don't need a lot of influence to get the meaty side of the story. The rest of the influence is just for fluff and the ability to have a small army of Jedi with you.

 

 

"Yep, it seems a high replayability was one of the main objectives of the design team."

 

It takes more than just a couple of new lines to impress me with replayability. The only thing that would make KOTOR2 replayable for me is the same as KOTOR1 = dark/light side. Other than that, i went through the game once, enjoyed the story with all its flaws, and that's it. I did try a second game last night; but stopped pretty much boring. Ha dno motivation to move forward. Reminds me of KOTOR1 that way.

 

I'll stick with the FO, BGs, and NWN (* talking about the whole game with this one; not the OC) for replayability with actual depth.

[213374U]

I fail to see how any of those games is any more replayable than KotOR/TSL (with the possible exception of NWN), but each to his own.

[Volourn]

"I fail to see how any of those games is any more replayable than KotOR/TSL (with the possible exception of NWN), but each to his own."

 

More logical stories with nowhere near as balring lopp holes (they have some; but not as glaring); challenging combat; actual different builds for characters and parties.

 

Role-playing wise KOTOR and KOTOR2 are just as 'replayable' as them; but consideirng how much combat both of thes egames have and how easy and boring it is and no matter how you build the characters; the combat is the same (unless you purposely go out of your way to nerf them).

 

Like I said, KOTOR2 (like its predecessor) is worth playing through once for the story and maybe twice to chekc out the DS/LS differences (though I only got half way through a second time with KOTOR1 and I've barely started a 2nd go for KOTOR2 before stopping) as the story is simply likely not going to change enough to make it worthwhile. And, the roel-playing in any CRPG just isn't deep enough to warrant replays on its own strength.

[Reveilled]

You should be force-fed enough to understand what is going on in the story. You should never be in a position where you think "What the hell is going on here?", unless the game accounts for the fact that you might not know.

 

If the plot is not being force fed, any time there is a dialogue in which something the player might not know is mentioned, "What in Yoda's name are you talking about?" should be a conversation option. If that option is not available, then suspension of disbelief is much harder, because if you do not know, chances are your character does not know, and your character should be as confused as you are. And if your character is not confused, you cannot pretend that your character is real, because they are acting unrealistically.

[NeverwinterKnight]

Like I said, KOTOR2 (like its predecessor) is worth playing through once for the story and maybe twice  to chekc out the DS/LS differences (though I only got half way through a second time with KOTOR1 and I've barely started a 2nd go for KOTOR2 before stopping) as the story is simply likely not going to change enough to make it worthwhile. And, the roel-playing in any CRPG just isn't deep enough to warrant replays on its own strength.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

not true. there are plenty of times when playing a lightside game has impact on the story when darkside doesnt. atleast to the same, if not more of a degree, than the games you champion.

[Volourn]

"not true. there are plenty of times when playing a lightside game has impact on the story when darkside doesnt. atleast to the same, if not more of a degree, than the games you champion."

 

Um.. Like I said, the only reason to play KOTOR1 or 2 more than once (to me) is to experience the LS/DS paths. We agree there...

[Elithrar]

And take different henchmen, explore different conversation options, and do side-quests differently.

[NeverwinterKnight]

Um.. Like I said, the only reason to play KOTOR1 or 2 more than once (to me) is to experience the LS/DS paths. We agree there...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

which is pretty much the only "replayability" fallout or baldurs gate has.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually BG is nice to play even if you dont bother with the roleplaying. Especially if you create your own weird party combos.

 

I never felt compeled to play KOTOR again I knew the big plot twist but with KOTOR II there were so many unanswered questions I wanted to fill in the gaps. Plus you have the Hanhar/Disciple thing as a DS female which makes it quite different from the Handmaiden/Mira of an LS male.

[chibajoe]

I fail to see how any of those games is any more replayable than KotOR/TSL (with the possible exception of NWN), but each to his own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HUH ?!? Try playing any of those games as a Barbarian, and then playing through as a Sorcerer, and tell me there's no difference. Playing through KOTOR (2 especially) is basically the same no matter what class/gender combo you use. So you get slightly different dialog trees, BFD <_<.

[NeverwinterKnight]

I fail to see how any of those games is any more replayable than KotOR/TSL (with the possible exception of NWN), but each to his own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HUH ?!? Try playing any of those games as a Barbarian, and then playing through as a Sorcerer, and tell me there's no difference. Playing through KOTOR (2 especially) is basically the same no matter what class/gender combo you use. So you get slightly different dialog trees, BFD <_<.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

same story whether youre a barbarian, sorcerer or whatever.

[Jarx Xun]

Anyways if you choose to leave important plot devices unexplained in a story then how do you expect someone to understand what is going on? There is a clear line between sloppy storytelling and mysterious storytelling. I guess Obsidian just isn't that good a defining this line for themselves.

[roflolocopter]

The story is the same but the game plays completely differently, so it is a different experience when you replay (in BG games). Playing KOTOR as light or dark creates a change in the outcome of certain events but no change in gameplay.

 

Still loved KOTOR all the way through, and KOTOR2 for most of the game.

 

ON TOPIC though, the main elements of the story should be easy to find out. Not to say it shoudlnt be complex, or that certain elements shouldnt be revealed through effort on your part, but to have a situation where you can exhaust every single possible avenue available to you and still not have a clue whats going on is just plain wrong.

 

There were quite a few things that just didnt make sense in KOTOR2, for example I had no idea what to do on GOTO's ship after id killed everyone as there was no indication that I should leave and have it destroyed by some guys who appeared from nowhere. My mission was afterall to rescue the exile and bring GOTO back to the hutt.

 

I didnt have a clue that Bao-dur even had anything to say after he'd built my lightsaber untill I had beat the game and read the forums. I also hear T3 has some interesting things to say as far as plot development goes, but I never really got these things even though I had a big influence score over him. Just never take droids because I find BLEEPBLEEPBLEEP to not be a verry interseting thing to read all the time

 

However its always more interesting though when you are awarded extra plot and information when you try and find it. I think they struck the right balance with Kreia because it was made pretty clear that she would have some interesting things to say and that having her along would provide some indication as to whats going on.

 

(Serious overuse of the word 'Influence' and poor grammar but its late and i cba)