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Why they shouldn't have a new engine just yet


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If you ask me, Lucasarts should really pay Bioware or Obsidian Entertainment to fine-tune and update the engine they already have.

 

And here's why they should have a new engine:

 

1. New Engine = New bugs

2. Takes up time that can be used for other things

3. May look better, but may run slower

 

and if they have more benefits if they use the engine, but only if:

 

1. Find and kill bugs, because the engine has been tested

2. Optimize the engine for maximum speed, at least for X-Box (I'm a PC'er, btw, and if you ask me, it's too hard to finet-tune to every PC..., but to have a slow and buggy on a console is not an excuse, Lucasarts)

3. Add new nice graphical effects, not to hard

4. The engine is already there, time can be used to fine tine gameplay and story instead

 

And that's why I think they should use the old engine. But really, it's up Lucasarts, and if they interested making the best product possible as much they are interested in sales, they should think about this.

 

I'm open to any debate, however. :D

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1. New Engine = New bugs

2. Takes up  time that can be used for other things

3. May look better, but may run slower

 

...

 

1. Find and kill bugs, because the engine has been tested

2. Optimize the engine for maximum speed, at least for X-Box (I'm a PC'er, btw, and if you ask me, it's too hard to finet-tune to every PC..., but to have a slow and buggy on a console is not an excuse, Lucasarts)

3. Add new nice graphical effects, not to hard

4. The engine is already there, time can be used to fine tine gameplay and story instead

Let's say they get the Source Engine. It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing. It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you. Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you. Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

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1. New Engine = New bugs

2. Takes up  time that can be used for other things

3. May look better, but may run slower

 

...

 

1. Find and kill bugs, because the engine has been tested

2. Optimize the engine for maximum speed, at least for X-Box (I'm a PC'er, btw, and if you ask me, it's too hard to finet-tune to every PC..., but to have a slow and buggy on a console is not an excuse, Lucasarts)

3. Add new nice graphical effects, not to hard

4. The engine is already there, time can be used to fine tine gameplay and story instead

Let's say they get the Source Engine. It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing. It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you. Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you. Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

As much I as like Half-Life 2, I disagree. It's a FPS Engine; I know Bloodlines used it, but my friend has it, and it says it has ton of bugs. Probably Troika's fault, though.

 

I still think they should the KOTOR engine, for ease's sake. I mean, it's not out of cycle yet.

 

I mean, look Jedi Academy; it uses the Quake 3 engine, and even though they made heavy modfications to the engine, it is still the Quake 3 engine at the core. They could still make the KOTOR engine even better; the question is, is Lucasarts willing to shove money to do it?

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After a certain point, it just gets more and more difficult to slosh through the code and get more juice out of it. We don't know if the engine can be improved from where it is; in fact, I'd hazard a guess that it can't be pushed much farther. I'd hazard a guess people would just complain about the improvements that were made to the engine, and more improvement would make it laggier and buggier.

 

However, I don't think the Source engine sounds more plausible. It's untested both as an RPG engine and as a console engine. Having to choose between the two, though... the latter is definitely much cooler. Still... if it were developed for next-gen, either way would be a lot more plausible. It still wouldn't be up-to snuff compared to other games in the generation, though... or so I would presume.

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Let's say they get the Source Engine.  It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing.  It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you.  Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you.  Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

And yet, Vampire: bloodlines, which uses the Source Engine, is buggy.

"When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.

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Let's say they get the Source Engine.  It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing.  It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you.  Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you.  Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

Source wasn't that great. I played HL2 in my friend's house and I can't say i was too impressed. Graphics look only slightly better than KotOR (Actually, Unreal 2 looked way nicer and was produced almost year earlier, Doom 3 also had more advanced engine) and the fabled Havok physics wasn't properly implemented - enemy's bodies in full armor floated in water like rubber dolls... it has potential, sure, but is now unfortunately obsolete. Had valve lived up to promises and given us the game half a year earlier, i'd be a hit. Now, when screens of Unreal 3, Quake 4, new Blizzard engine and that of several other games begin to show up, HL2 looks a bit... mediocre. Troika tried to make RPG out of source, and they failed. Bioware announced they want new RPG engine... and they turned source down and instead got Unreal 3 engine for their new "big RPG project"... KotOR 3 maybe? (w00t) source doesn't have room for expansion, while Q4, U3 & D3 engines have a lot to spare... So, if KotOR 3 is going to be made, Bioware/Obsidian - spare us buggy source and go for a real new generation engine <_<

 

F.

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Let's say they get the Source Engine.  It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing.  It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you.  Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you.  Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

And yet, Vampire: bloodlines, which uses the Source Engine, is buggy.

 

That's what I said eariler. ;) However, I have played some Troika games before, and my general feeling is that they are quite buggy; and in my opinion, Bloodlines is the leats buggy one I have played. :D

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After a certain point, it just gets more and more difficult to slosh through the code and get more juice out of it.  We don't know if the engine can be improved from where it is; in fact, I'd hazard a guess that it can't be pushed much farther.  I'd hazard a guess people would just complain about the improvements that were made to the engine, and more improvement would make it laggier and buggier.

 

However, I don't think the Source engine sounds more plausible.  It's untested both as an RPG engine and as a console engine.  Having to choose between the two, though... the latter is definitely much cooler.  Still... if it were developed for next-gen, either way would be a lot more plausible.  It still wouldn't be up-to snuff compared to other games in the generation, though... or so I would presume.

 

Well, I have disagree with that. This is only the second game they used with this engine; if you ask me, it could still go a fwe games. Just look at Quake 3, and to a lesser extent, Max Payne. Quake 3 has tons of games made on this engine, and even though I doubt anymore games will use it nowadays, remember, Jedi Academy had it; they apparently pushed it far, and it was pretty good and stable game, IMHO.

 

Max Payne looked bad, and ran okay, but its successor Max Payne 2: Fall of Max Payne looked absolutely gorgeous, and ran without a hitch on my computer.

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Source wasn't that great. I played HL2 in my friend's house and I can't say i was too impressed. Graphics look only slightly better than KotOR (Actually, Unreal 2 looked way nicer and was produced almost year earlier, Doom 3 also had more advanced engine) and the fabled Havok physics wasn't properly implemented - enemy's bodies in full armor  floated in water like rubber dolls... it has potential, sure, but is now unfortunately obsolete. Had valve lived up to promises and given us the game half a year earlier, i'd be a hit. Now, when screens of Unreal 3, Quake 4, new Blizzard engine and that of several other games begin to show up, HL2 looks a bit... mediocre. Troika tried to make RPG out of source, and they failed. Bioware announced they want new RPG engine... and they turned source down and instead got Unreal 3 engine for their new "big RPG project"... KotOR 3 maybe? (w00t) source doesn't have room for expansion, while Q4, U3 & D3 engines have a lot to spare... So, if KotOR 3 is going to be made, Bioware/Obsidian - spare us buggy source and go for a real new generation engine <_<

 

F.

 

HL2 graphics are slightly better than KotOR and are worse than Doom 3? What video card and visual settings was that on? I mean, if you're playing it on a DirectX7-based card with everything set low, of course it's going to look bad... I play it on a DirectX8 card, with all settings on max, and the game looks awesome. Better and faster than Doom 3, for certain. I can only imagine how both games look under hardware DirectX9... And don't even start comparing it to KotOR graphics.

 

 

And yet, Vampire: bloodlines, which uses the Source Engine, is buggy.

 

That's what I said eariler. ;) However, I have played some Troika games before, and my general feeling is that they are quite buggy; and in my opinion, Bloodlines is the leats buggy one I have played. :D

 

Yeah, this is more Troika's fault, they have a long track record of buggy games. I played Vampire: Bloodlines, and the only real bugs I experienced was when decals (such as blood splatters) weren't placed correctly on the walls and would flicker in and out of the wall. In rooms with heavily bloodied walls and floors, the flickering could get VERY distracting. Other than that, not many bugs I could see. Temple of Elemental Evil was lightyears worse than this. One thing for certain, though, is that they definitely did not use to Source engine to its fullest extent, when compared to what's found in HL2.

 

All said and done, I'm not sure I would like the Source engine to power any KotOR-related game or RPG. After all, it's primarily an FPS engine - did anyone try making an RPG out of any other FPS engine? And from what I've seen of it, it's geared more towards dark, gritty urban environments rather than the bright chrome cityscapes and varied natural landscapes of Star Wars. If they were to use it, however, I would like them to completely remove the things inherent to FPS's - namely jumping (especially), crouching, and first-person view.

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What's this saying that Half Life 2's graphics aren't great?

 

If your buddy has various graphics options turned off, that's one thing. There is a reason many people call Half Life 2 the greatest looking game to date.

 

Bloodlines got a copy of the Source Engine like two years before Half Life 2 was released. I think they had an early version, and after ToEE I'm beginning to think that Troika does not have the world's best programmers.

 

Half Life 2 is not a buggy game, and thus the engine is not necessarily buggy.

 

The upsides:

 

Great graphics

The engine supports a full SDK/modkit.

Will sell like mad

Incredible physics. Imagine the Force in the Source.

Vehicle support.

Facial gestures.

 

The downsides:

We'd wait a bit longer than a sequel in the KOTOR engine.

 

You know all those features people requested for KOTOR:2 that couldn't be done because of the engine?

 

Well, it would be a whole new ballgame.

 

As far as comments that Source can't power an RPG, they don't know Source. Source was designed to be modded, provide full flexibility, and was used for a RPG.

 

The gritty feel of Half Life is due to the textures they used in Half Life. You can replace those textures with whatever you need for KOTOR.

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Let's say they get the Source Engine.  It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing.  It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you.  Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you.  Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

Source wasn't that great. I played HL2 in my friend's house and I can't say i was too impressed. Graphics look only slightly better than KotOR (Actually, Unreal 2 looked way nicer and was produced almost year earlier, Doom 3 also had more advanced engine) and the fabled Havok physics wasn't properly implemented - enemy's bodies in full armor floated in water like rubber dolls... it has potential, sure, but is now unfortunately obsolete. Had valve lived up to promises and given us the game half a year earlier, i'd be a hit. Now, when screens of Unreal 3, Quake 4, new Blizzard engine and that of several other games begin to show up, HL2 looks a bit... mediocre. Troika tried to make RPG out of source, and they failed. Bioware announced they want new RPG engine... and they turned source down and instead got Unreal 3 engine for their new "big RPG project"... KotOR 3 maybe? (w00t) source doesn't have room for expansion, while Q4, U3 & D3 engines have a lot to spare... So, if KotOR 3 is going to be made, Bioware/Obsidian - spare us buggy source and go for a real new generation engine <_<

 

F.

 

Ha. I stopped reading after you said the graphics were only slightly better than kotor. You're either an idiot, or a huge idiot. im betting on the latter.

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Let's say they get the Source Engine.  It only went through a 5 year development cycle with massive bug squashing.  It's stable, efficient, can run an RPG, and has wonderful realistic physics.

 

Imagine force effects affecting everything around you.  Imagine facial reactions and emotions from the NPCs around you.  Imagine swoop-bikes flying through levels.

 

Source wasn't that great. I played HL2 in my friend's house and I can't say i was too impressed. Graphics look only slightly better than KotOR (Actually, Unreal 2 looked way nicer and was produced almost year earlier, Doom 3 also had more advanced engine) and the fabled Havok physics wasn't properly implemented - enemy's bodies in full armor floated in water like rubber dolls... it has potential, sure, but is now unfortunately obsolete. Had valve lived up to promises and given us the game half a year earlier, i'd be a hit. Now, when screens of Unreal 3, Quake 4, new Blizzard engine and that of several other games begin to show up, HL2 looks a bit... mediocre. Troika tried to make RPG out of source, and they failed. Bioware announced they want new RPG engine... and they turned source down and instead got Unreal 3 engine for their new "big RPG project"... KotOR 3 maybe? (w00t) source doesn't have room for expansion, while Q4, U3 & D3 engines have a lot to spare... So, if KotOR 3 is going to be made, Bioware/Obsidian - spare us buggy source and go for a real new generation engine <_<

 

F.

 

Ha. I stopped reading after you said the graphics were only slightly better than kotor. You're either an idiot, or a huge idiot. im betting on the latter.

 

Now now, there's no need for such remarks.

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Imagine paying heaps of cash to get the PC to play a Source-engine game. Yep, nice.

 

But then again, the next-gen consoles will be very powerful, so I'm guessing that getting one of them is a guarantee that you will run the latest games as of now, or upcoming games.

 

Anyway, I wanna keep the good old engine, but upgraded and improved upon. Unreal? you are crazy...

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If there is to be a KotOR III, they need a new game engine. You cant use HL2's engine because its an FPS. Ofcourse, you could take examples from HL2's engine and use them in creating a new game engine. For example, you could make the environment fully interactive, you have to also improve the graphics, and you could give the NPCs facial impressions etc. Ofcourse, this would take years to do and then we would have to debug but it would be an amazing game and this engine could be used for later productions.

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Source Engine is overrated. Sure, it has great graphics; but the bugs and other crap it brings to the table can absolutely ruin it. The Source Engine almost destroyed BL for me. If it wasn't for that stupid engine, BL would probably be in my top 5 favorite RPGs of all times. Bah.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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If there is to be a KotOR III, they need a new game engine. You cant use HL2's engine because its an FPS. Ofcourse, you could take examples from HL2's engine and use them in creating a new game engine. For example, you could make the environment fully interactive, you have to also improve the graphics, and you could give the NPCs facial impressions etc. Ofcourse, this would take years to do and then we would have to debug but it would be an amazing game and this engine could be used for later productions.

 

Why get a new engine when they can improve the one they already have? All the things you just said can be added to it; it's just if LA is willing to.

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"Source Engine is overrated. Sure, it has great graphics; but the bugs and other crap it brings to the table can absolutely ruin it. The Source Engine almost destroyed BL for me. If it wasn't for that stupid engine, BL would probably be in my top 5 favorite RPGs of all times. Bah."

 

No, that was Troika, not Source.

9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!

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No, that was Troika, not Source.

 

Not necessarily true. For a lot of the issues, yes it was Troika. But I've followed other forums for both HL2 and VtMB and similar issues have plagued both games.

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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After reading all the posts above I would have to say skip the KOTOR engine and Skip the Source engine. I have to vote that they take two or three years and create a brand new engine from scratch. Maybe use a few tips from the soruce and Doom 3's engine but improve on them. But the most important arguement against using someone elses engine is that most wont, or have a bad track record in handling RPGs.

 

Sure your going to have all new bugs when it comes to making a new engine but with the proper amount of time most of the bugs can be either fixed or just plain "squashed". Sure the development time in creating a new engine but I think the gains would fair out weight the set backs of not having a new KOTOR next year.

"The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein.

 

"It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

 

"You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan.

 

"When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole)

 

"A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"

 

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My vote is to use the current engine to finish the third and final game in the KOTOR series, THEN move on to a new engine to create whatever spin off (KOTNR, or whatever they want to call it) they decide upon.

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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In the wake of IGN's Best RPG of 2004 and Best Story of 2004 awards going to KotOR II : TSL, it's clearly obvious that the KotOR franchise is all about delivering a compelling, engrossing strory w/ fun, addictive gameplay to boot.

 

Therefore, whoever is develping K3 shouldn't waste valuable development time creating a new engine, when other aspects (story, gameplay etc.), should receive a higher priority.

 

But, one thing is for certain; the Odyssey Engine (the current engine for K1 & k2), is already looking rather dated by today's uber quality standards. Hence, the best thing for the K3 team would be to licence an existing engine. :p

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