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Why's Forgotten Realms more popular than Greyhawk?


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#41
Baradhel

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I suspect we'll be be seeing more of those areas in future WotC releases.  Note that the Unapproachable East (the area bordering Kara Tur) has been out for a while, and the Shining South just came out.

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The Unapproachable East book was pretty weak, I haven't gotten Shining South yet. I don't see any such books due for next year. There is the much awaited Waterdeep book next July that should be great, Lost Empires Of Faerun (Netheril, Imaskar etc.) and some more environmental books, Maelstrom and Sandstorm. Perhaps the interest for other regions isn't really commercially viable.

#42
Rhomal

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Wasn't it Ed Greenwood who created both worlds? first Greyhawk and then FR? He obviously didn't think his first creation was perfect so he tried another. And i'm not implying that FR is perfect, it whas just a thought on how FR came to be...

Not sure about if Ed made Greyhawk though.

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Gygax created GH. Go read the 30th anniversery article on gamepsy about the history of D&D for all the gory historical details.

Greenwood stated he took a lot from other fantasy sources (JRR, norse mythos, king arthur, GH, etc) to create the FR. It is little more then a hodpodge of predefined works thrown into a blender. While thats not saying its a good nor bad setting, just stating it on a factual level.

I also agree its really the DM who defines the 'high' or 'low' magic of a setting, but the sourcebooks DO set the tone for the DM generally speaking.

#43
hosagi

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Is GREYHAWK owned by WIZARDS???? or did the company simply Licence the d20 system?

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Yep, WotC own it. It's the original D&D setting.

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and ever sence WotC purchased AD&D from TSR the chances of finding any store that sells either the core books(DM's Guide, Monsters Guide, etc...) the supplemental books(The Magic Tome High Level Campeign etc...)dwindles each day i know of 3 WotC near my house and not even they sell AD&D Books hell they dont even Sell Magic the Gathering and they own that as well i have to go to a mom and pop game store
imvho AD&D.........Excuse me now that WotC purchased tsr they took out the A its now just D&D the level of content has gone down hill and I'm not the only one who feals this way the people I know that play AD&D feal the same way the only way WotC could do better is by bringing in Garry Gygax, Ed Greenwood the people who truly made AD&D as popular as it is and stop nerfing it

#44
Dethangels Shadow

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR. After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground. Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality. Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received. WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues. Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

Bring back Gygax? Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others. He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing. Though I do think he could be an asset. Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print. If they don't have it, they can certainly order it. However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them. Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved. Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting. Who knows?

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike. If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.) IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take. :blink:

#45
hosagi

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR.  After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground.  Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality.  Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received.  WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues.  Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

Bring back Gygax?  Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others.  He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing.  Though I do think he could be an asset.  Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print.  If they don't have it, they can certainly order it.  However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them.  Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved.  Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting.  Who knows?

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike.  If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.)  IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take.  :huh:

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3e and 3.5e was only well received cause it pampered the carebears who didnt even bother to try to understand 2e rules(which i still say are the best rules and LAST rules of the once great AD&D)
Gygax's ego is almost as big as mine and well diserving AD&D is partially his brain child and only left cause T$R didnt like his attitude for the changes they had going from 1e to 2e(which is also about the same time Greenwood{Elminster Aumar},Cook and the rest started showing up) he might have ego but WotC Hasbro and Atari should atleast have him consulting on the direction of AD&D instead of half guessing and nerfing everything that made AD&D so great if not on NWN2 atleast on anyother AD&D project like D&D Online

#46
Primus Valerius Rex

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR.  After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground.  Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality.  Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received.  WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues.  Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

Bring back Gygax?  Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others.  He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing.  Though I do think he could be an asset.  Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print.  If they don't have it, they can certainly order it.  However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them.  Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved.  Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting.  Who knows?

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike.  If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.)  IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take.  :(

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3e and 3.5e was only well received cause it pampered the carebears who didnt even bother to try to understand 2e rules(which i still say are the best rules and LAST rules of the once great AD&D)
Gygax's ego is almost as big as mine and well diserving AD&D is partially his brain child and only left cause T$R didnt like his attitude for the changes they had going from 1e to 2e(which is also about the same time Greenwood{Elminster Aumar},Cook and the rest started showing up) he might have ego but WotC Hasbro and Atari should atleast have him consulting on the direction of AD&D instead of half guessing and nerfing everything that made AD&D so great if not on NWN2 atleast on anyother AD&D project like D&D Online

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No, Gygax got the axe from his wife when she took over TSR after a nasty divorce.

Also the Forgotten Realms is a more of a complete realm than Greyhawk. To this day, the Forgotten Realms is ever changing because Greenwood and his DnD companions still play DnD in their realm (the Forgotten Realms). Personally, the only thing Greyhawk has going for it is gun powder while in the Forgotten realms, gun powder is nullified or if you prefer, /dev/null.

I have to agree that 2nd edition was better in some ways than 3rd. 3rd edition's combat is a lot more tedious than 2nd edition's.

#47
AlanC9

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hosagi, do you have something against using actual sentences in your posts?

I kind of like 3rd ed.'s combat system, although I really wish they had kept phased initiative.

#48
Foil

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hosagi, do you have something against using actual sentences in your posts?


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What amazed me is that he is actually legible and readable. Says a lot considering the complete lack of periods. I have trouble making sense while using periods.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

#49
drow_101

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I h8 to spoil you'r argument but this string is about y fr is BETTER that gh not where they came from. I do feel that FR is much better than GH as there is a more complete world out there with it's own regions much alike today.

Another point i find is that FR and GH i think are set on the same plannet just different sides of Toril so NWN 2 couldn't go to another comntinent as it would just bo going to GH and so couldn't b Neverwinter any more as Neverwinter is Purely FR :)

#50
Primus Valerius Rex

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I h8 to spoil you'r argument but this string is about y fr is BETTER that gh not where they came from. I do feel that FR is much better than GH as there is a more complete world out there with it's own regions much alike today.

Another point i find is that FR and GH i think are set on the same plannet just different sides of Toril so NWN 2 couldn't go to another comntinent as it would just bo going to GH and so couldn't b Neverwinter any more as Neverwinter is Purely FR :)

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Actually previous to 3.0+, Greyhawk was in another crystal sphere or DnD dimension. They may have changed that since then. FR was created fully by Ed Greenwood, wife, and friends.

--PVR

#51
Dethangels Shadow

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Actually previous to 3.0+, Greyhawk was in another crystal sphere or DnD dimension.  They may have changed that since then.  FR was created fully by Ed Greenwood, wife, and friends. 

--PVR

They haven't changed it... they are two seperate crystal spheres, with uniquely different cosmologies. Greyhawk uses the standard one from the core books, Faerun's is much, much different.

One thing they have highlighted (starting in 3e) is how difficult it is to travel from FR to another cyrstal sphere (ie Greyhawk).. there is only one or two ways to do it... and it's a dangerous trek. IIRC, only the Shadow plane can be used... too tired to look it up right now.

#52
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Actually previous to 3.0+, Greyhawk was in another crystal sphere or DnD dimension.  They may have changed that since then.  FR was created fully by Ed Greenwood, wife, and friends. 

--PVR

They haven't changed it... they are two seperate crystal spheres, with uniquely different cosmologies. Greyhawk uses the standard one from the core books, Faerun's is much, much different.

One thing they have highlighted (starting in 3e) is how difficult it is to travel from FR to another cyrstal sphere (ie Greyhawk).. there is only one or two ways to do it... and it's a dangerous trek. IIRC, only the Shadow plane can be used... too tired to look it up right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well when your not so tired I would like to hear a little more about that.

#53
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LOL now that you bring up travel between the two, it would be interesting to see greyhawk implimented into NWN 2. LOL even if it was only a cameo (you get the meaning) "You must travel to the this crystal sphere to capture a (insert quest item here), best of luck (insert heros name here)".

Now that would be interesting... maybe

#54
knightsubzero

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why is dragonlance not as popular as forgotton realms?

marketing simple as that. i personally like dragonlance alot more it has a more epic feel to it. the books are brilliantly written (mostly). But that is also the reason forgotten realms is so big cause the books are brilliantly written read anything by R.A. salvatore and you will just go wow this guy is awsome he knows how a sword really works instead of some writers who's only knowledge is pointy end goes here.

ive never heard of greyhawk before.

and id also like to support shadow drifter i live in brisbane as well (its more like 1 million people as opposed to 100000 (3rd biggest city)) and Pnp isnt very big at all warhammer has some following but is still about as popular as WWF.

the only table top game of anykind i have played is lord of the rings and thats only been about 3 times. I own hundreds of minatures all around my house but i just paint them i dont play them.

i guess we have better things to do like play video games that have a lot more feel to them.

I mean some people play pen and paper (i know 3 who do) but its rare and i know alot of people.

#55
Dethangels Shadow

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Well when your not so tired I would like to hear a little more about that.

Here's some of the details regarding the Plane of Shadow..

As described in Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Shadow constitutes the primary link between Toril's planar cosmology and those of other worlds.  The Plane of Shadow connects Toril's Material Plane with those of other worlds, including the default world for the D&D core books -- the World of Greyhawk.  Naturally, in a land as full of magical portals as Faerun is, unusual portals that connect to other Material Planes via conduits through the Plane of Shadow almost certainly exist.  Some sages point to such connections as the source of spells named after the great wizards of Greyhawk, such as Otto's irresistible dance, Otiluke's freezin sphere, Tenser's transformation, and the various Bigby's hand spells.


The cosmology of Toril is likened to a tree with many branches, with the prime material, ethereal and shadow planes forming the trunk.

#56
Arlain

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honestly though... i live an hour from brisbane, and even in brisbane your hard pressed to find DnD... as some one said before its not that popular here (that said Warhammer isnt either, i just guess some super nerd decided to open shop with very few customers LOL man i hate warhammer)


You seem to not know brissy well.

Ace Comics and Games(City), Fast Break Sports (Nundah- (mutilple Living Greyhawk (and Living FR) games a month here), Mind Games (Stones Corner and City), Comic Warriors (Annerley), Rajin Comics (southside somewhere), Borders (big bookstore in the City), Wicked Games (Aspley).

There is a shop in Ipswich, another in Beaudesert, and another somewhere deep southside that I know of, but I don't remember the names of.

BTW if you are interested in trying out the PnP side of things the folks that run the RPGA's living campaigns would be glad to see you - contact them through the Yahoo group Brisgames

II know there is a gaming shop in Bundy and there certainly used to be one out at Toowoomba. I'm not aware of any on either the Sunshine or Gold coasts, but a little asking around on the Brisgames list should turn them up.

Australia has a massive PnP community, that allows a lot of gaming shops to flurish. (Heck I was down in Mornington the other week on holidays and low and behold there was a gaming shop...true it was full of kids playing 40K but they sold DnD stuff as well.)

Any Australians wanting to hook up with local PnP folks can drop me a PM, chances are I can put you in touch with someone., or at least find your local store.

Oh and to say something relevant to the actual thread...

All TSRs settings are high fantasy, ithey are just different flavors of High Fantasy. FR and GH both have horrible geo-politics and worse histories, cobled together to suit the needs of tonights gaming session and the latest module. (Dragonlance performs better in these regards as it was built from scratch by TSR to sell books and gaming in parallel.)

One of my favourite settings is Planescape - because at first level everything really can eat you, but it just doesn't suit my style as a Dm so I never managed to run a campaign there. But FR, GH, and DL are easy for me to run games in so I've ran them in all those settings (plus Darksun, Mystara, and some others.) I like the high fantasy aspect of these settings and can easily tailor campaigns to suit them. But I also likey gritty realism to and in the same settings can tailor campaigns for that as well.


So ultimately the settings become what the DM and PCs can make of them, not what they are in the sourcebooks. The sourcebooks are a source of ideas - cannon is what happens in your campaign. (Which is why I like PW play over module play in NWN)

#57
Dethangels Shadow

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You seem to not know brissy well.

Ace Comics and Games(City), Fast Break Sports (Nundah- (mutilple Living Greyhawk (and Living FR) games a month here), Mind Games (Stones Corner and City), Comic Warriors (Annerley), Rajin Comics (southside somewhere), Borders (big bookstore in the City), Wicked Games (Aspley).

...

Australia has a massive PnP community, that allows a lot of gaming shops to flurish. (Heck I was down  in Mornington the other week on holidays and low and behold there was a gaming shop...true it was full of kids playing 40K but they sold DnD stuff as well.)

Any Australians wanting to hook up with local PnP folks can drop me a PM, chances are I can put you in touch with someone., or at least find your local store.

Heh... I knew it.. :cool:
You just have to know where to look.. :p

So ultimately the settings become what the DM and PCs can make of them, not what  they are in the sourcebooks. The sourcebooks are a source of ideas - cannon is what happens in your campaign. (Which is why I like PW play over module play in NWN)

That's true... it's always what the DM and PC's make out of it. I think the argment with what is or is not "canon" really has to do with what a licensed product can or can not contain. With NWN and NWN2 being licensed products, they should fit within the core rules and sources (FRCS, PGtF, RoF, etc.)

One of the reasons I liked HotU so much was because it tied the story into a current event happening in the Realms. It didn't, however, alter the course of events such as the OC did -- eg. Klauth dead, Neverwinter's thaw, etc.

#58
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I'll take Planescape, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun over both FR and GH.

#59
Dalmir "The Dark"

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I personally use Greyhawk as a home base and Forgotten Realms as a secondary stomping ground. I also use Planescape because it connects to everything as has a lot of flavor in and of itself. My players have even ventured to Dark Sun and been sucked into Ravenloft on occasion. They have also frequented a good number of the inner and outer planes on a regular basis.

My campaign, when active, really has very few limitations. Game settings become more like planes and are considered as either the prime material plane or alternate prime as needed. Once Greyhawk was no longer supported by TSR, I started incorporating some of the Forgotten Realms material into my campaign and just took it from there. My overall campaign world has evolved into quite a hybrid over the years as a result.

#60
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I like to fill my worlds with my NPCs. Even when I played DragonLance way back in junior high, we always played on different continents. Why have players who know the source material as well as you, if not better?

What if players argue that you're not representing an existing city well enough? If you create your own settings, then you are the auteur.

I may pull rules from certain settings, but I don't take much source material from them.




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