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romeo_longsword

Why's Forgotten Realms more popular than Greyhawk?

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From what it sounds like, and stated elsewhere in the topic. The Best analagy i can come up with is

 

Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are like PC and Apple.

Both do more or less the same thing, but differently and with fanbases on both sides (and those in the middle)...

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Actually Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms are pretty darn similar in style. The FR


Life is like a clam. Years of filtering crap then some bastard cracks you open and scrapes you into its damned mouth, end of story.

- Steven Erikson

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Greyhawk was really the first campaign world (primarily a carry over from Chainmail and the original group) and then TSR soon to be Wizards began with the Forgotten realms (A creation of the great sage himself, many of the details of its creation available in editorials in dragon) over intelectual rights issues and no new content was created for Greyhawk. This would put both worlds at approximately the same age. Along the same lines all the literature was done in the forgotten realms and Krynn (*sp). Wizards eventually made amends, I remember reading in Dragon somewhere that Gary was brought back on as a creative consultant (one of their editorials) and low and behold they started re-releasing old modules from Greyhawk and new ones in development as well as novels. The only shortchange Greyhawk really has is that theres very little substance to the world whereas the realms has entire histories that have been explored in games, novels, fansites, fanfiction, etc.

 

Both of these worlds adhere strictly to the precept of High Fantasy, part of what makes them so popular. As far as levels of magic, Tome of Magic in its appendix made several outstanding points about how prevalent certain levels of magic should be, and every shop keeper carrying a +7 broadsword of lifestealing is a bit... odd to say the least.

 

(this is how I recall it, and was done w/o any current fact checking)

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Wasn't it Ed Greenwood who created both worlds? first Greyhawk and then FR? He obviously didn't think his first creation was perfect so he tried another. And i'm not implying that FR is perfect, it whas just a thought on how FR came to be...

 

Not sure about if Ed made Greyhawk though.

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Can you say, which is a "better" world in terms of its intellectual degree?

 

For example, I say FR is great as a pletform to be a computer game because its allow a lot of freedom and magic flying everywhere. Which, in a personal view, its actually a negative thing because I desire a "realistic" fantasy world.

 

I hope you could get my meaning here, would you say, GH is "better" by my sort of standard?

 

I know this is hard to say as you can spent hours saying why is that piece of art is better than others, but I hope sombody could guess where I am comming from and give me some ideas or introudction.

 

Ta.

 

You really shouldnt judge FR by the computer games. In a 'proper' FR setting, there's very few magical items around, certanly not +5 swords in every 3rd barrel and drow hiding in every corner.

 

Or did you mean that in your view, it's negative because the world has magic? In that case, you're out of luck with mainstream D&D worlds, they're all magical worlds with deities and such.

 

Comparing FR to any number of other D&D worlds really comes down to personal preference, although I find it rather funny how for example, the greyhawk and dragonlance crowd tries to insult FR, saying how munckhinish it is, with 'overpowered characters and magical items', when in fact, most of the D&D settings is filled with the same munckhin elements. The setting is what you make of it.

 

Although it is what we as the players make of it, in terms of how "good" the world is, but there must be some sort of truth in the impression that, FR is just too many powerful items and things come too easily.

 

Basically, I have this impression that GH is lower in magical items while FR is like , "free magic give away" style.

I played GreyHawk its a fairly decent module I've also played Forgotten Realms even DM'd a few adventures(going on 10 years) and for you to come out and say that FR is a "free magic give away" just because you played a FRCRPG is just wrong, I dont know about other DM's but when i set up a campeign the actually probability of your character finding anything higher than a plain +2 longsword is REALLY high if your going to use the FRCRPG to base your opinions on please state that all your info is based as such but to generalize all of FR just because you found it easy to pickup a Dragon's Bane Sword in Icewind Dale is not a wise thing to do

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I find it hard to believe a city with 100,000 people wouldn't have anyone playing PnP. 

 

If your local bookstores don't carry them, check your local comic book and/or scifi/fantasy stores (the ones that carry anime, Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, Stargate, etc. paraphenallia), as most of them carry gaming supplies.  It's also the place where us PnP geeks tend to run into one another.  :geek:

 

Trust me, there can be 100,000-people cities, that not only have no PnP players, but also not a single comic book and/or sci-fi/fantasy store :(


This statement is false.

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lol we have a warhammer store (SIGH BIG TIME.... GRRRRR NERDS) LMAO and a comic store... no DnD tho except in book stores

 

about the warhammer thing, i just dont like it. LOL just me i suppose.

 

honestly though... i live an hour from brisbane, and even in brisbane your hard pressed to find DnD... as some one said before its not that popular here (that said Warhammer isnt either, i just guess some super nerd decided to open shop with very few customers LOL man i hate warhammer)

 

Oh people who like warhammer,,, nothing against ya personally i just hate it... never really got it i guess. if that makes sense.

 

ToEE was... interesting... so here is a question...

 

Is GREYHAWK owned by WIZARDS???? or did the company simply Licence the d20 system?

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...as posted previously, FR be more "popular" simply cuz that be what TSR & Wizards o' the Crapper has been pushin' fer the last umpteen years...I's was always partial ta the Dragonlance settin' meself, but wit' the Big Wheels o' Business behind the Forgotten Realms settin' fer the last 10+ years, other settin's git left out in the cold...more's the pity... :geek:

 

 

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Is GREYHAWK owned by WIZARDS???? or did the company simply Licence the d20 system?

 

Yep, WotC own it. It's the original D&D setting.

They also own FR, lock, stock and barrel. (Where did that term come from? Hmm... after pondering for a minute.. sounds like a description of a gun.) Anyways, Grewhawk was created by Gygax, Faerun was greated by Greenwood. Both have been significantly shaped by others... Cook, Wyatt, et. al.

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One thing that Bioware, Black Isle, and Obsidian have not done is explore many of the other areas of the world. Faerun is just one continent one whole world. BG 1&2, ID 1&2, and NWN 1&2, only really occupy one sliver of land on the western coast, about 1/30 of the whole continent. If anyone has read the novels (like me) you would know there is ALOT of material that still has not been gone over. The Campaign Book for FR alone has about 150 pages on just the geography. Lands can differ from anything form Mediterranian, African, Exotic Jungles, Arabian, and even an entire country shaped after ancient Eygpt. Theres alot of untapped material I would like to see in video game form, the designers just need to go there.

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One thing that Bioware, Black Isle, and Obsidian have not done is explore many of the other areas of the world. Faerun is just one continent one whole world. BG 1&2, ID 1&2, and NWN 1&2, only really occupy one sliver of land on the western coast, about 1/30 of the whole continent. If anyone has read the novels (like me) you would know there is ALOT of material that still has not been gone over. The Campaign Book for FR alone has about 150 pages on just the geography. Lands can differ from anything form Mediterranian, African, Exotic Jungles, Arabian, and even an entire country shaped after ancient Eygpt. Theres alot of untapped material I would like to see in video game form, the designers just need to go there.

It's not that they stayed on the same continent, rather that they stayed in the same few regions... all on the left hand side of my map. Of course, SoU and HotU did explore a bit, but there are so many other areas. Dalelands, Cormyr, Silver Marches, Cormanthor, The High Forest, Moonshae Isles, and so on. And then there are the other continents..

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One thing that Bioware, Black Isle, and Obsidian have not done is explore many of the other areas of the world. Faerun is just one continent one whole world. BG 1&2, ID 1&2, and NWN 1&2, only really occupy one sliver of land on the western coast, about 1/30 of the whole continent. If anyone has read the novels (like me) you would know there is ALOT of material that still has not been gone over. The Campaign Book for FR alone has about 150 pages on just the geography. Lands can differ from anything form Mediterranian, African, Exotic Jungles, Arabian, and even an entire country shaped after ancient Eygpt. Theres alot of untapped material I would like to see in video game form, the designers just need to go there.

 

Its because most of the other regions were made just to squeeze a few more bucks out of the public by satisfying niche markets.

 

You do realise that 99.99 percent of the areas mentioned in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting are in Faerun?

 

The less popular regions like Mulhorand (the Egypt one) only have about a paragraph of information, whereas areas like the Silver Marches have an entire book to themselves.

 

Areas outside of Faerun like Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zakhara etc. are really badly done, boring stereotyped copies of real life with no attention to detail. The FRCS just skims over all of those in one page. The vast majority of people set their campaigns in Faerun for this reason.

 

Its not a good idea for a game to get too generalised anyway, it just sacrifices detail.

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I suspect we'll be be seeing more of those areas in future WotC releases. Note that the Unapproachable East (the area bordering Kara Tur) has been out for a while, and the Shining South just came out.

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I suspect we'll be be seeing more of those areas in future WotC releases.  Note that the Unapproachable East (the area bordering Kara Tur) has been out for a while, and the Shining South just came out.

 

The Unapproachable East book was pretty weak, I haven't gotten Shining South yet. I don't see any such books due for next year. There is the much awaited Waterdeep book next July that should be great, Lost Empires Of Faerun (Netheril, Imaskar etc.) and some more environmental books, Maelstrom and Sandstorm. Perhaps the interest for other regions isn't really commercially viable.

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Wasn't it Ed Greenwood who created both worlds? first Greyhawk and then FR? He obviously didn't think his first creation was perfect so he tried another. And i'm not implying that FR is perfect, it whas just a thought on how FR came to be...

 

Not sure about if Ed made Greyhawk though.

 

Gygax created GH. Go read the 30th anniversery article on gamepsy about the history of D&D for all the gory historical details.

 

Greenwood stated he took a lot from other fantasy sources (JRR, norse mythos, king arthur, GH, etc) to create the FR. It is little more then a hodpodge of predefined works thrown into a blender. While thats not saying its a good nor bad setting, just stating it on a factual level.

 

I also agree its really the DM who defines the 'high' or 'low' magic of a setting, but the sourcebooks DO set the tone for the DM generally speaking.


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Is GREYHAWK owned by WIZARDS???? or did the company simply Licence the d20 system?

 

Yep, WotC own it. It's the original D&D setting.

and ever sence WotC purchased AD&D from TSR the chances of finding any store that sells either the core books(DM's Guide, Monsters Guide, etc...) the supplemental books(The Magic Tome High Level Campeign etc...)dwindles each day i know of 3 WotC near my house and not even they sell AD&D Books hell they dont even Sell Magic the Gathering and they own that as well i have to go to a mom and pop game store

imvho AD&D.........Excuse me now that WotC purchased tsr they took out the A its now just D&D the level of content has gone down hill and I'm not the only one who feals this way the people I know that play AD&D feal the same way the only way WotC could do better is by bringing in Garry Gygax, Ed Greenwood the people who truly made AD&D as popular as it is and stop nerfing it

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR. After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground. Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

 

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality. Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received. WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues. Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

 

Bring back Gygax? Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others. He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing. Though I do think he could be an asset. Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

 

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print. If they don't have it, they can certainly order it. However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them. Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

 

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved. Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting. Who knows?

 

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike. If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.) IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take. :blink:

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR.  After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground.  Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

 

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality.  Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received.  WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues.  Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

 

Bring back Gygax?  Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others.  He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing.  Though I do think he could be an asset.  Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

 

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print.  If they don't have it, they can certainly order it.  However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them.  Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

 

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved.  Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting.  Who knows?

 

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike.  If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.)  IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take.  :huh:

3e and 3.5e was only well received cause it pampered the carebears who didnt even bother to try to understand 2e rules(which i still say are the best rules and LAST rules of the once great AD&D)

Gygax's ego is almost as big as mine and well diserving AD&D is partially his brain child and only left cause T$R didnt like his attitude for the changes they had going from 1e to 2e(which is also about the same time Greenwood{Elminster Aumar},Cook and the rest started showing up) he might have ego but WotC Hasbro and Atari should atleast have him consulting on the direction of AD&D instead of half guessing and nerfing everything that made AD&D so great if not on NWN2 atleast on anyother AD&D project like D&D Online

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Actually, IIRC, WotC salvaged TSR.  After Gygax's nasty divorce, his ex-wife ran TSR into the ground.  Were it not for WotC, we probably wouldn't have D&D today.

 

As far as content goes... I think a lot of the materials are of quite high quality.  Not everything is a smashing success, but overall, both 3e and 3.5e have been well received.  WotC being purchased by Hasbro did introduce some new issues.  Hasbro appears to be somewhat reluctant to release material that may be questionable, but WotC did manage to eek out Vile Darkness and Exhalted Deeds (both had a "Mature Audience" warning sticker on them.)

 

Bring back Gygax?  Perhaps... if he could cooperate with the others.  He does need to realize it's beyond his own vision now... it's a much greater thing.  Though I do think he could be an asset.  Greenwood is definately an asset which WotC needs to hold on to; his vision is what brought AD&D back from the brink, and keeps D&D popular.

 

I can go to my local bookstores and buy any core book, and often others currently in print.  If they don't have it, they can certainly order it.  However, I tend to support my local "mom and pop" store... they tend to stock all of them.  Of course, some of them are getting a little too into WH2k, but that's my opinion (I don't use miniatures, but have toyed with the idea of using them for PnP.)

 

Also, don't forget that Gygax wasn't the sole creator of D&D... there were several involved.  Perhaps regrouping the originals (Gygax, Arneson), alongside those who re-popularized it (Greenwood, Wyatt, Cook), would be quite beneficial, perhaps even extremely interesting.  Who knows?

 

I've heard Arneson speak numerous times.. and he always seemed amicable towards WotC and Gygax alike.  If anything, the animosity appeared to be directed towards those involved in the fall of TSR (or 'T$R' as it was mocked as.)  IIRC, Arneson lives in my area.. it'd be interesting to see what he thought of NWN, and our arguments about the direction NWN2 should take.  :(

3e and 3.5e was only well received cause it pampered the carebears who didnt even bother to try to understand 2e rules(which i still say are the best rules and LAST rules of the once great AD&D)

Gygax's ego is almost as big as mine and well diserving AD&D is partially his brain child and only left cause T$R didnt like his attitude for the changes they had going from 1e to 2e(which is also about the same time Greenwood{Elminster Aumar},Cook and the rest started showing up) he might have ego but WotC Hasbro and Atari should atleast have him consulting on the direction of AD&D instead of half guessing and nerfing everything that made AD&D so great if not on NWN2 atleast on anyother AD&D project like D&D Online

 

No, Gygax got the axe from his wife when she took over TSR after a nasty divorce.

 

Also the Forgotten Realms is a more of a complete realm than Greyhawk. To this day, the Forgotten Realms is ever changing because Greenwood and his DnD companions still play DnD in their realm (the Forgotten Realms). Personally, the only thing Greyhawk has going for it is gun powder while in the Forgotten realms, gun powder is nullified or if you prefer, /dev/null.

 

I have to agree that 2nd edition was better in some ways than 3rd. 3rd edition's combat is a lot more tedious than 2nd edition's.

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hosagi, do you have something against using actual sentences in your posts?

 

I kind of like 3rd ed.'s combat system, although I really wish they had kept phased initiative.

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hosagi, do you have something against using actual sentences in your posts?

 

 

 

What amazed me is that he is actually legible and readable. Says a lot considering the complete lack of periods. I have trouble making sense while using periods.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

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I h8 to spoil you'r argument but this string is about y fr is BETTER that gh not where they came from. I do feel that FR is much better than GH as there is a more complete world out there with it's own regions much alike today.

 

Another point i find is that FR and GH i think are set on the same plannet just different sides of Toril so NWN 2 couldn't go to another comntinent as it would just bo going to GH and so couldn't b Neverwinter any more as Neverwinter is Purely FR :)

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I h8 to spoil you'r argument but this string is about y fr is BETTER that gh not where they came from. I do feel that FR is much better than GH as there is a more complete world out there with it's own regions much alike today.

 

Another point i find is that FR and GH i think are set on the same plannet just different sides of Toril so NWN 2 couldn't go to another comntinent as it would just bo going to GH and so couldn't b Neverwinter any more as Neverwinter is Purely FR :)

 

Actually previous to 3.0+, Greyhawk was in another crystal sphere or DnD dimension. They may have changed that since then. FR was created fully by Ed Greenwood, wife, and friends.

 

--PVR

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