Light Side Powers

[Fearless_Jedi]

Now I know that the Light Side is all about defense and aid, but shouldn't KOTOR II feature a force power, (out of the 30 new ones) that is both oriented to the Light Side and also does some sort of damage unlike KOTOR I...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No they shouldn't make a LS power that is purely offensive....they should, however, make a universal power that is very offensive like telekinesis( throwing big objects with your mind), so LS players at least have one offensive power.

[213374U]

That is your opinion. You have nothing canon to support it, while there are plenty of examples which point otherwise.

 

You gave one exmaple,one doesn't equal plenty.

I'm beginning to think that no amount of examples would be enough for you. Remember that 'the Force is for defense and enlightenment, never for attack' babbling? That's what it all comes down to.

 

Please not the quotes around "Dark Side Power".   I admit he used Choke, there are no dark or light powers,all in how they're used.

So you say. The Force is not a law court. It doesn't accept 'mitigating circumstances', there are no intermediate positions. Attacking other beings with the Force is wrong. Not only that, those poor pigs were not in a threatening attitude, either. They were just in his way. If choking them is not DS, then nothing is.

 

Where is it stated that using the Force to cause harm is out right DS? I've seen things that have said using it in Anger is DS,using it with Hate is DS,never the word "harm" is DS. Both sides "harm" the other in form or another with the Force.

So Force lightning some bloke who happened to be in your way, while being in perfect control of your emotions would not be DS just because you are not in anger? Please.

 

If anything, using the Force against others is wrong, because most beings are defenseless against that kind of attacks. Attacking a defenseless being is wrong by my book.

[SilverSun]

I'm beginning to think that no amount of examples would be enough for you. Remember that 'the Force is for defense and enlightenment, never for attack' babbling? That's what it all comes down to.

 

As I said before,protecting someone is not an attack. If you push/blast/whatever someone who's about kill an innocent person who has no way to defend themselves you didn't attack someone,you used the Force for defense.

 

So you say. The Force is not a law court. It doesn't accept 'mitigating circumstances', there are no intermediate positions. Attacking other beings with the Force is wrong. Not only that, those poor pigs were not in a threatening attitude, either. They were just in his way. If choking them is not DS, then nothing is.

 

Attacking,yes,we're not talking about attacking. And the Guards were being threating,they put themselves between him and the path and made it clear they weren't letting him past without a fight. Their Job? Yes,still was meant to be a threat. He tried anything and they would fight him. So he removed the threat so he could protect his friends/family.

 

So Force lightning some bloke who happened to be in your way, while being in perfect control of your emotions would not be DS just because you are not in anger? Please.

 

Would depend,is this person just standing in a Cantina,not paying any attention to you at all and is just in your way? If so then yes that would be DS because the person isn't in anyway making any kind of threat towards yourself or anyone else.

 

If anything, using the Force against others is wrong, because most beings are defenseless against that kind of attacks. Attacking a defenseless being is wrong by my book.

 

Agreed,however defending the the defenseless by use of the Force is not the same thing as attacking the defenseless with the Force.

 

Well we can keep this going or agree to disagree. Up to you,either way I'm having fun. But it might be time to break out one of the greatest quotes ever,movie or real life:

 

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

[Spook]

DS powers should be the ones that are harming living beings, while LS powers should be those that heal or defend living beings.

 

Those that just enhance a creature or have effect on none living things (like droids) should be neutral.

 

 

That said I think they could add some better defencive powers to LS.

[213374U]

As I said before,protecting someone is not an attack. If you push/blast/whatever someone who's about kill an innocent person who has no way to defend themselves you didn't attack someone,you used the Force for defense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. If you cause harm to others, no matter why or how, it's an attack. Even if the target of your attack deserves to be attacked, it doesn't change the nature of your action. Using the Force to confuse the attacker, paralize him, or create an illusion to trick him would be defense. Hurting him would cross the line.

 

All right. Let's consider you can always find some devil's advocate to justify your unjustifiable drawing upon the dark side. That could work in a pnp RPG since you could try to convince the GM that what you absolutely, positively needed to fry that poor beggar with Force lightning (he was after your money, after all!). However, in a CRPG there's no GM to argue with, so a general rule must be applied. And in general, using the Force to harm others, is wrong. So, to get back on topic, no. The LS should absolutely not get any powers that can directly or indirectly cause harm.

[SilverSun]

Nope. If you cause harm to others, no matter why or how, it's an attack. Even if the target of your attack deserves to be attacked, it doesn't change the nature of your action. Using the Force to confuse the attacker, paralize him, or create an illusion to trick him would be defense. Hurting him would cross the line.

 

An attack happens first,defense is second so if someone is all ready being attacked,and you step in to defend the individual you've attacked no one. The attack has all ready taken place,your actions are in Def of the person being attacked,no matter what you use to do so. Might be an aggressive Defense,but it's still defense.

 

All right. Let's consider you can always find some devil's advocate to justify your unjustifiable drawing upon the dark side.

 

 

Unjusttifiable? Problem is we're dealing A)with a fictional world and ideas and B) A lot of it is simply subjective. You don't buy it and that's fine,wasn't really trying to change your mind. I just enjoy these kind of debates.

[213374U]

An attack happens first,defense is second so if someone is all ready being attacked,and you step in to defend the individual you've attacked no one. The attack has all ready taken place,your actions are in Def of the person being attacked,no matter what you use to do so. Might be an aggressive Defense,but it's still defense.

As far as moral and legal concerns go, there is no difference between 'aggressive defense' and aggression itself. You see some punk in the street trying to mug/rape/kill a girl, you step in and break his back. Guess who's going to jail? "

 

But you are missing the point. There are other forms of using the Force that don't involve harming others. If a Jedi chooses the aggresive one over the harmlessl one, he's giving in to the dark side.

[Azazel005]

Hurting people with the force is still dark side as a general rule :P:P

 

I am not sure if anything else can be said I believe we have reached a point where both sides are clear to one and other but we simply don't agree.

 

An offensive action using the force is wrong for a Jedi, there are all manners of extremes, but all Jedi should see it as a very distant answer to there problems, if it can be justified at all.

[Lord Satasn]

hmmm question....is using the force to enhance ur abilities, then cutting someone down with ur saber since ur enhanced....using the force for harm?

[SilverSun]

As far as moral and legal concerns go, there is no difference between 'aggressive defense' and aggression itself. You see some punk in the street trying to mug/rape/kill a girl, you step in and break his back. Guess who's going to jail?

 

A)That's going to depend on where you live,will be different from state to state and country to country..

B)As a security guard who has take a class every year to review such things as use of force,I can say that would depend on a lot of different things. Such as did you tell the person too stop before or after you got involved,did you feel the person's life/your was in danger, did the you do anything to the person after you broke up the situation and there was no longer a threat,the last one is a big one. If the peson is leaving and you touch them,you're in touble. If they've been told to stop,have not and are a threat to you or someone else you have the right to defend yourself or them up to the point that the threat is removed,in which case you have to stop. Again,very thin line that can change in an instant if you're not careful.

 

Things aren't always black and white.

 

But you are missing the point. There are other forms of using the Force that don't involve harming others. If a Jedi chooses the aggresive one over the harmlessl one, he's giving in to the dark side.

 

So you say,but defense of life is defense of life,and who's to say that an agrressive defense,in certain situations,is a bad thing? Again,not everything is black and white. If there's a rule,there's an exception,normally more then one. And as I said before,when ever the dark side has been talked about in a movie or the EU,what is said is anger,hate,etc. I've don't recall the word harm ever being said.

 

Do you know of a case where the harm was used? And I'm not being a smart ass. I honestly can't think of a time when the term harm was used.

 

An offensive action using the force is wrong for a Jedi, there are all manners of extremes, but all Jedi should see it as a very distant answer to there problems, if it can be justified at all

 

How is something done in defense and offensive action? It's done in defense for the purpose of protecting life,that's not offensive.

 

But you're right,we can either agree to disagree or carry on. Either way is fine by me. I've had a fun debate either way.

 

Might not agree with you two,but I will say I've gained respect for the both of you.

 

For whatever that's worth to you,which might not be much.

[213374U]

hmmm question....is using the force to enhance ur abilities, then cutting someone down with ur saber since ur enhanced....using the force for harm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup. But you have to leave something for us poor lightsiders to play with. "

[213374U]

A)That's going to depend on where you live,will be different from state to state and country to country..

B)As a security guard who has take a class every year to review such things as use of force,I can say that would depend on a lot of different things. Such as did you tell the person too stop before or after you got involved,did you feel the person's life/your was in danger, did the you do anything to the person after you broke up the situation and there was no longer a threat,the last one is a big one. If the peson is leaving and you touch them,you're in touble. If they've been told to stop,have not and are a threat to you or someone else you have the right to defend yourself or them up to the point that the threat is removed,in which case you have to stop. Again,very thin line that can change in an instant if you're not careful.  

Hmm. It really seems you know what you're talking about. TBH I didn't expect to find somebody who actually knew this kind of stuff in depth here. I must have underestimated the dark side... err I mean... you.

I have read quite a few things on self-defense myself, and AFAIK, you would be hard pressed to justify the use of something as deadly as a back-breaking technique, no matter the circumstances, since the only aim of such a move is to cause serious and/or permanent injury, if not death. I believe that could be compared to using the Force in an offensive way.

 

Might not agree with you two,but I will say I've gained respect for the both of you.

Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

[SilverSun]

I have read quite a few things on self-defense myself, and AFAIK, you would be hard pressed to justify the use of something as deadly as a back-breaking technique, no matter the circumstances, since the only aim of such a move is to cause serious and/or permanent injury, if not death. I believe that could be compared to using the Force in an offensive way.

 

Heh,'bout the only thing that would pry justify something that would be the person was crazyed and simply would not stop attacking you,you'd also have to be able prove that in a court which could be difficult. And if that is how you view using the Force for an agressive Defense then I can see why you hold a strong stance against it.

[Azazel005]

Still though we arguing the use of the force on a moral compass, I never said that a Jedi might not have the most noble intentions of protections and would be doing the right thing by iur definitions of good and evil, but to wield the force in that way is still dark in it's roots. It's too easy, you have called on your power solved the problem with a simplistic violent solution. Jedi's respect all life, good or evil.

 

And of emotions there is always fear, fear is one of the biggest failures of young Jedi that fall, a Jedi will fear being unable to protect those around them, fear failure, and then call on the force to help them quickly - fear leads to the dark side. If they were not afraid they have turned to such a quick violent solution.

[SilverSun]

Jedi's respect all life, good or evil.

 

Respect is good,But in certain situations which life gets the most respect?

 

And of emotions there is always fear, fear is one of the biggest failures of young Jedi that fall, a Jedi will fear being unable to protect those around them, fear failure, and then call on the force to help them quickly - fear leads to the dark side. If they were not afraid they have turned to such a quick violent solution.

 

Agreed,to a point. Sometimes one has to make very quick choices or someone dies. The fear of one's own actions,which then costs a close friend/famliy member or innocent person their life,could send some down the path of the DS a lot fast then a little use of the Force to stop a bad situation.

[Azazel005]

Agreed,to a point. Sometimes one has to make very quick choices or someone dies. The fear of one's own actions,which then costs a close friend/famliy member or innocent person their life,could send some down the path of the DS a lot fast then a little use of the Force to stop a bad situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well mate, the Jedi code isn't perfect or easy. And while that loss may well lead to the darkside through grief and anger, but all those emotions must be removed.

 

One of the biggest critiscms across the council is always it's inaction, the Jedi's are often passive to the detriment of the galaxy. That is their code though.

[nightcleaver]

I don't really feel like wading through this miscellaneous stuff, so sue me - I'll just offer my idea and leave.

 

Something interesting I noticed from a link elsewhere in the forms, that seems to be the key to the reasons lightsiders fight and suggests their mentality when they do so:

 

"Jedi see the bisection of a living opponent's body a form of butchery and try to avoid this. They use this extreme form mostly on battle droids.

Sai tok represents a Sith-like desire to destroy the enemy. The goal of a Jedi in battle is an inner focus on defeating the danger of the opponent, rather than wishing destruction upon them."

 

Taken from:

 

http://jediarchives.bejedi.com/index.php?c=fighting_styles

 

bottom of the page.

 

So, technically, Obsidian COULD add offensive lightside powers - they would just be focused on incapacitating rather than killing. Things that weaken and/or damage stats, the power of the enemy combatants, or affects their minds in ways that makes them less inclined or capable to fight you. Endless combinations: Damage reduction, stat reduction, even the ripping of Force ability for a time from their body, draining their FP.

 

Something interesting to make note of is that form 7 is dangerously close to being darkside, as are a couple of others, but lightside jedi still use them without falling. Does that mean powers such as Force Choke, when used in moderation, are perfectly acceptable as lightside powers? Luke does it at one point...

 

Anyone see what I'm saying, or is this just a stupid idea? Has someone suggested this already?

[213374U]

I don't really feel like wading through this crap, so sue me - I'll just offer my idea and leave.

[...]

So, technically, Obsidian COULD add offensive lightside powers - they would just be focused on incapacitating rather than killing.  Things that weaken and/or damage stats, the power of the enemy combatants, or affects their minds in ways that makes them less inclined or capable to fight you.

 

Anyone see what I'm saying, or is this just a stupid idea?  Has someone suggested this already?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see... so you don't want to read 'this crap'. Well, it's your choice. But maybe you should read some other 'crap', maybe then you would know about Battle Meditation being added into the game.

[nightcleaver]

I didn't want to wade through a huge debate about the nature of lightside/darkside that seemed somewhat close to a flame war, and pages upon pages of it. I knew that Battle Meditation is a new force power, in fact, that's what I'm somewhat suggesting Obsidian has already done to "balance" the lightside and the darkside.

 

I've paid dues quite enough for a lifetime, I think, in reading way more forum posts than I really need to and have time to read without actually getting anything out of it. I resent that you suggest I'm in total ignorance of the topic, but I'll put that aside...

[213374U]

I didn't want to wade through a huge debate about the nature of lightside/darkside that seemed somewhat close to a flame war, and pages upon pages of it.  I knew that Battle Meditation is a new force power, in fact, that's what I'm somewhat suggesting Obsidian has already done to "balance" the lightside and the darkside. 

 

I've paid dues quite enough for a lifetime, I think, in reading way more forum posts than I really need to and have time to read without actually getting anything out of it.  I resent that you suggest I'm in total ignorance of the topic, but I'll put that aside...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't suggest anything of the sort. However, it amuses me how you can call a debate which you have admittedly not read, 'crap'. I could care less about your opinion, but you proved your ignorance about this topic when you stated it's close to a flame war. That and the arrogant tone of your posts are what prompted my reply, nothing else.

 

If you are harsh, expect nothing but harshness.

[Sorall Loskannen]

I would like to see an offensive force power, or a feat, that would target the enemy's weapons. If you can disarm them they are forced to surrender, and you get the EXP. If they do not surrender they are stupid and you do not get DS points for killing them, and you get EXP. If you kill them after they have surrendered (an action that you must perform willingly after they have ceased hostilities, ie the health bar has turned blue but the player can still attack), you get DS points and EXP.

 

This could be a LS power, but most likely neutral, that could be used either way, and the morality of it is directly based on the outcome.

 

I know this won't happen, but it would be nice.

[MASTER]

they got some it be called force push aka a wimps move.

[SilverSun]

Well mate, the Jedi code isn't perfect or easy. And while that loss may well lead to the darkside through grief and anger, but all those emotions must be removed.

 

True that is how the Jedi are trained,but*gasp,I'll bet you're surprised by this. *I never really agreeded with that. Cutting yourself of from all your emotions makes you nothing more then a droid IMO. Now I understand why it was done, that very thin line that can be crossed in an instant,but I think teaching stronger control,while still being allowed to have them,would have made a better teaching method. Maybe a certain well known fallen Jedi turned Twisted and evil could have avoided falling if something different had been used to train him.

 

interesting ideas nightcleaver and Sorall Loskannen,both sound interesting.

 

And is Battle Med Light? Tought it was considered neutral...

[nightcleaver]

I think, perhaps, the Jedi code is as "strict" as it is partly for the benefit of newbie apprentices and Padawans and such who don't really understand the nature of the force and the nature of themselves fully. I can imagine the master's inflict these same rules on themselves to maintain an example, for the most part, except for a few "rogue" jedi that recognize there isn't any need to be quite so strict. To a certain degree, you certainly have to watch those emotions to not do evil in real life, but only if you don't know what to watch for would you need to even consider suppressing such emotions to avoid "becoming evil," which is easier to do with the Dark Side looming in the Star Wars universe. Real life religions, on a basic level, seem to say some very similar things to what the Jedi Code says, and yet certain "priests" ( or whatever else) recognize a need for their own "code" to not be so strict.

 

There are practical and impractical reasons, I think, for the Jedi Order to be so strict. The most practical reason is that ambiguous rules are not easily understood, and to say, "no love" is a very direct, simple rule that allows little room for deviation from the ideals of the Jedi Order.

People tend to stretch rules a little bit, too, so that's another point in their defense. Frankly, there is no right answer for the Jedi Order as a whole, and I think they took the better path in the largest sense to be this strict. People will rebel when necessary anyway, for better or for worse. It's best that people feel that it's their choice to follow the Council's wishes, but how would the COUNCIL make that clear? Maybe have covert Jedi to tell the youngster's what their choice is? Perhaps it should be made clear to them, that, if they do fall in love, they don't have to come to the council for punishment, but they do need to deal with it - something along the lines of contraception being used because of the mass spreading of STD's.

There's a reason Yoda told Luke to face his father without telling him to do anything, except to give the incentive that this was his test (I think?). I think so, anyway - and wasn't he a member of the Council? Maybe he learned his lesson.

 

This really applies to the case of Bastila Shan in KotOR I, I think, though I won't go into detail here.

[Stargate: 2000]

An attack happens first,defense is second so if someone is all ready being attacked,and you step in to defend the individual you've attacked no one. The attack has all ready taken place,your actions are in Def of the person being attacked,no matter what you use to do so. Might be an aggressive Defense,but it's still defense.

As far as moral and legal concerns go, there is no difference between 'aggressive defense' and aggression itself. You see some punk in the street trying to mug/rape/kill a girl, you step in and break his back. Guess who's going to jail? "

 

But you are missing the point. There are other forms of using the Force that don't involve harming others. If a Jedi chooses the aggresive one over the harmlessl one, he's giving in to the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

acctually thats not entirely true, saying that you know the woman who is being attacked the law would allow excessive force to be used in stopping the person hurting her, mainly due to the extreme emotional distress caused by seeing someone you care about being hurt. This is why they created the defense of Temporairy(sp?) insanity (canadian law anyway). Now to bring this back on topic, A jedi is the self proclaimed protectors of the universe thus if they saw a person being hurt it would be the same as a cop seeing it so they would be obligated to inervein in order to protect said person even if it ment calling on the darkside in order to protect that person. Though they wouldn't do it unless there wasn't anyother way to avoid the person who is being attacked from getting it hurt or killed.