Non-Linear Stories

Sarjahurmaaja. · February 14, 2004

"gardner ain't talking 'bout leaving you feeling happy and content with resolution. ending with a world in chaos can very easily be a satisfactory conclusion in that all goals of author is met and all major questions is answered."

I guess you misunderstood me there on the "world is chaos" part. That was just me speaking figuratively. The resolution could be anything, really, just as long as it would shatter the illusion of all things being connected. Of course, I might be misunderstanding you right now, so feel free to tell me to shut up before it's too late.

"is possible that the ending should make you wanna howl at the protagonist or the author who wrote 'em, but that not mean that the story fails to conclude properly. ultimately, we thinks that a great ending should be a surprise, but upon reflection, the careful reader should recognize that the ending as written was inevitable as well.

in any event, you probably wouldn't end a sentence in mid thought, so why is"

You know, in some strange way that feels so right. It fits quite well with what you stated above. By the way, if your reaction to this is "well, duh!" or "what's that guy smoking?", please take into account that it is late and my brain is not working properly before you pass on any judgements.

PS: I don't think we're on topic any longer. Should we start a new thread on this, or would it be better to just continue this here, since the topic seems to be widely ignored? And, of course, do we even have anything left to discuss about this subject, either?

Gromnir · February 15, 2004

"You know, in some strange way that feels so right. It fits quite well with what you stated above. By the way, if your reaction to this is "well, duh!" or "what's that guy smoking?", please take into account that it is late and my brain is not working properly before you pass on any judgements."

we agree that it feels right. that is the reason why we ended that way. for what was our goals, it was a suitable and satisfactory way to end post. momentarily you is thinking that we left something missing... you was left hanging, but 'pon reflection you realize that it was probably inevitable that we would end post that way, no?

as to keeping on-topic... that is easy. what got us on endings is talk of non-linearity in the first place... or rather "non-linearity" in crpgs, 'cause as we has seen, from a storytelling perspective, you will always gots linearity. those endings is the last thing you will see of a reader's work.

now, when you read the end of, "richard iii" or "of mice & men" or even moore's "the watchmen," do you really think that those stories would have been as satisfactory if you had an endings that largely ignored everything that had gone on in the dozens of pages leading up to the conclusion?

optional ending 1: richmond meets richard on bosworth field and they make an alliance (diplomacy check.)

optional ending 2: richmond pulls out a crossbow and shoots richard from extreme range before battle begins. richard's head explodes in a shower of blood and bone (thanks to a near automatic luck roll and his sniper perk.)

optional ending 3: richmond rummages through richard's garbage and finds incriminating documents, but the documents are largely illegible due to large ink blots. richmond manages to lift the ink stains from the documents (science check,) and then uses the documents to:

a) blackmail richard

b ) depose richard

etc.

now try to rewrite richard iii so that each of those endings is not only possible, but satisfactory.

"The resolution could be anything, really, just as long as it would shatter the illusion of all things being connected."

even postmodernism ain't so cynical in approach. pynchon delillo and barth all had something to say or was, at the very least, metafictionists. is like a joke where it not matter what the punchline is... sure, maybe such a thing is a curiosity worth noting, but the joke ain't gonna be very funny is it?

"a few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. it had begun to snow again. he watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. the time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. yes, the newspapers were correct: snow was general all over ireland. it was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the bog of allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous shannon waves. it was falling too upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where michael furey lay buried. it lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. his soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead." -james joyce, "the dead"

(is maybe not exact, but is close... whatever errors we make is probably minor grammar mistakes.)

after reading, is hard to imagine "the dead" or "dubliners," concluding any other way.

HA! Good Fun!

Sarjahurmaaja. · February 15, 2004

"we agree that it feels right. that is the reason why we ended that way. for what was our goals, it was a suitable and satisfactory way to end post. momentarily you is thinking that we left something missing... you was left hanging, but 'pon reflection you realize that it was probably inevitable that we would end post that way, no?"

Yes, you're right. In hindsight, I would say it was so obvious I wouldn't have needed to even point it out, but, oh well...

"now, when you read the end of, "richard iii" or "of mice & men" or even moore's "the watchmen," do you really think that those stories would have been as satisfactory if you had an endings that largely ignored everything that had gone on in the dozens of pages leading up to the conclusion?"

I don't think I meant that, rather that the endings could show those events that led to the conclusion in a manner that they would seem less important than they did when they happened. Of course, if the ending wouldn't go along with Gardner's guidelines, it might seem shallow and pointless. I would still like to see it done, just to sate my curiosity.

Maybe I'm just crazy, as I'd also in some level would like to see a shrink give a particularly whiny and apathetic patient a razor, just to observe the patient's reaction to it.

By the way, when you refer to these books, could you ellaborate a bit on their content? Most of them are unfamiliar to me, possibly because I'm an illiterate Finnish barbarian. Cultural differences and all that, you know?

PS: A joke, where it doesn't matter what the punchline is can be funny, because it's stupid. If, you're laughing, you're not laughing because it's funny, but because it's so damn stupid. Now, if it was intentionally so stupid that it makes you laugh, it has sort of achieved it's goal as joke. It's a joke where the joke is the joke. Am I making any sense?

Gromnir · February 16, 2004

"PS: A joke, where it doesn't matter what the punchline is can be funny, because it's stupid. If, you're laughing, you're not laughing because it's funny, but because it's so damn stupid. Now, if it was intentionally so stupid that it makes you laugh, it has sort of achieved it's goal as joke. It's a joke where the joke is the joke. Am I making any sense?"

sure you make sense. that is why we brought up example of a joke. as we said, the joke ain't really gonna be funny, but it may afford a moment's curiosity... a painting can do same thing... or maybe a sculpture. how long does it take to notice that the painting or the sculpture or the joke has no point? now, imagine if the joke took 12 hours to tell. would you chuckle when you realized that the punch line was meaningless?

as to explaining our lit references... we will attempt to do so in future.

HA! Good Fun!

~Di · February 16, 2004

The confusion may be in combining the term "non-linear" with "story." Even in a game, the "story" is linear. You have a beginning; you have a destination. These are basically unchanged. It's the journey that may ramble, or sprint, or veer into uncharted lands for exploration. But eventually the player simply has to return to Route 66, if you will, and continue to the final destination.

So the term "non-linear" refers to the journey, and how many sideroads the highway from beginning to destination will allow the player to take. The ending of a game is always the ending of the story (even if it's open ended, in a sense, to allow for a sequel), and minor variations of theme/ending do not a non-linear "story" make. In Fallout, for example, the beginning was always the same, the ending was always the same, the story was always the same. The journey, however, was variable.

At least, this is my interpretation of what I perceive your question to be.

Edit Note: LOL, I was responding to the original poster without bothering to read the entire thread... which no longer has much to do with the original question, so... neverrrr mind.

Hell Kitty · February 16, 2004

*ignores most of the thread*

What Di said. Fallout and Arcanum may be non-linear games, but the stories are just as linear as any other game.

I'd sure like to see a non-linear story. Like in the old Choose your own adventure books I read as a kid.

Gromnir · February 16, 2004

the original question was... confused. jj asked for writer feedback and you gave. he should be grateful... Gromnir is grateful.

HA! Good Fun!

Monte Carlo · February 16, 2004

I used to write the "plots" for training exercises for a variety of interested parties who were preparing for 'X' or 'Y' contingency. I'll freely admit that I looked to certain aspects of CRPGs to design them.

This is what I learnt.

When you are designing something that is going to be used by a third party for a specific purpose (i.e. a game, for enjoyment or a training scenario for learning) then that purpose pushes the design. Design cannot as easily push purpose.

So, to use BG2 as an example, the purpose is to conclude the main portion of the Bhaalspawn saga. The design has to be grafted onto that main purpose, and design compromises have to be made to create the "illusion" of non-linearity (as GiK points out).

To use my own example, you have to factor in occasionally unrealistic variables (i.e. deliberately curbing "non-linearity", a misnomer which I think we can replace with "freedom") to keep things on track. For example, in one scenario the team might say "OK, our communications aren't working in the engineering compound, we'll use our mobile telephones."

"Your mobile telephones don't work either."

Realistic? Maybe not.

However, it fits the brief, which is to test contingencies beyond the obvious. The guys in that training situation have to deal with a problem sans the usual comfort blankets of mobile telephones and email to communicate. That's the entire point. In a CRPG it might be seek the McGuffin, seek revenge, fulfill your divinity or rescue your sister. The point remains that these have to be dealt with...it's how you deal with them is the art of masking the almost inevitable linearity of the endeavour.

It's like life...death and taxes are inevitable and if anybody knows of a non-linear way of living that avoids both then please send me a PM.

Cheers!

MC

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

*ignores most of the thread*

I'd like to keep this topic away from the definition of "Non-linear" or "Story", it is a can of worms when people are confused based on a singular experience. Let us suffice to say that non-linear has two meanings as alluded to here.

Experiments in nonlinear writing have been around for a while - novels which do not proceed from "once upon a time" to "they lived happily ever after" and improvisational theatre which does not strictly follow a script. Movies have attempted nonlinearity with devices like cross-cutting or flashbacks (documentary and experimental films even more so than dramatic films because they are not necessarily plot-driven).

This essay also gives some insight that I was looking for. Namely that it makes it easier to write a script that can fork into many directions if you, "... work with scene-based (rather than story-based) scripts." The second approach of fully user-based direction is more complex and may not be possible in the game context. I think that a scene-based creation makes it easier to handle and cerate outcomes to events. In M. Carlo's example there are many ways to handle the problems of the inoperative phones. Some of these methods will lead the player down some wild paths. All those paths or at least a large number of them should be accounted for. If some lead to a dead end then the player must go back to solve the problem again. Sometimes the wrong path will lead to the problem's end (e.g. the lock was hopelessly jammed).

Also back to my original post, I finally found an excellent tool which can be used to visualize the multiple connections such a non-linear story will have. Check out Storyspace. Its a little pricey but there is a demo available. But if you have a hundreds of scenes, each with a large number of outcomes, you need something heavy-duty to keep the threading intact. This is obviously the type of situation where keeping track of the story on paper is going to only confuse things.

I think someone should start a thread to discuss the definitions of various terms. There definitely is alot of confusion on "non-linearity" but that discussion should be held elsewhere so that this thread doesn't get sidetracked any more than it has already..

*******************************************************************

poolofpoo · February 16, 2004

I think someone should start a thread to discuss the definitions of various terms. There definitely is alot of confusion on "non-linearity" but that discussion should be held elsewhere so that this thread doesn't get sidetracked any more than it has already..

*******************************************************************

I agree, non-linearity as a concept doesn't exist, at best one could call non-linearity a conceptual art form sprung from the branches of great tree-like men. JK Rowling is probably the best example of this.

Gromnir · February 16, 2004

do a search for literary hypertext. this crap has been 'round for years... and even it ain't truly non-linear.

as mc and di and Gromnir and others has been trying to explain, the notion of a non-linear story is not same thing as is allowing you multiple ways to solve problems or quests in games or any such similar thing.

*shrug*

reason why the issue gets confused is 'cause as we noted from start, the question is confused.

HA! Good Fun!

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

Does anyone know why Gromnir keeps replying in this thread? I haven't taken the time to read any of his posts...

Nicolai · February 16, 2004

And why does he talk about himself in 3rd person? :huh:

Karzak · February 16, 2004

Does anyone know why Gromnir keeps replying in this thread? I haven't taken the time to read any of his posts...

That's too bad, he pegged the problem with your post pretty well.

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

That's too bad, he pegged the problem with your post pretty well.

He answered my question about tools?

Karzak · February 16, 2004

That's too bad, he pegged the problem with your post pretty well.

He answered my question about tools?

Is that what I said? I answered your question about tools, BTW.

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

I answered your question about tools, BTW.

Heh, no unless your name is also crakkie or Monte Carlo.

Karzak · February 16, 2004

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

Every game engine handles decision trees differently, and I imagine every writer handles them differently as well on paper.

Here is where I answered your question.

True, your question was so confusing and poorly written that it defied any real answer.

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

Yes everyone says that my original question is so poorly written. It has to be difficult to understand this: "What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story?"

I mean it could mean anything to someone who doesn't speak English and I'm sure animals have absolutely no clue.....

Let me ask this; is English your first language?

~Di · February 16, 2004

Yikes. Taking condescention and rudeness to a new low here. Anyway, I perceive you are not really interested in the views of others regarding non-linearity in game scripts (there is no such thing as a non-linear story, as has been repeatedly pointed out) so I'll leave y'all to your trading of juvenile insults. 'Tis a shame, because the discussion of alternative handling of script trees to allow players a non-linear gaming experience within the confines of a rich, atlhough necessarily linear, story-line could have been interesting.

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

Anyway, I perceive you are not really interested in the views of others regarding non-linearity in game scripts (there is no such thing as a non-linear story, as has been repeatedly pointed out) so I'll leave y'all to your trading of juvenile insults.

No, I really did not want to get into the obvious nit-picking about what a non-linear game is. For some reason the question turned into that discussion and as a result has turned nasty. All I wanted was quick and simple info on specific software tools. I appreciate your help on offering me that info!

Karzak · February 16, 2004

could have been interesting.

LOL, no one is stopping you from having your discussion Di.

I have to wonder, if you don't like a certain aspect of a thread, why add to it?

JJ86 · February 16, 2004

Sorry Di, I made a new thread here to discuss that topic:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=299

I always think it is better not to mix threads and prefer discussing one thing in one topic. Sorry if I discouraged other discussion but I like to stay on topic and I would prefer not stooping to name-calling but will not shy away when confronted by others.

Gromnir · February 16, 2004

as soon as you explain what you is actually asking for, you may get some responses. you has contradicted self numerous times now. you give examples of stuff like facade, and then you ask 'bout crpgs.

...

again, if you want to build a non-linear game, you can looks to mmorpgs, but non-linear storytelling is not same thing.

btw, we has suggested tools... hypertext literature is the most common method by which folks has explored notions of non-linear storytelling. you might get some ideas if you looks up various hypertext lit sites and articles.

HA! Good Fun!

poolofpoo · February 16, 2004

this is turning out to be the funniest topic so far on this board

Non-Linear Stories

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