Jedi vs. Non-Jedi

[Darth Sirius]

If it was in some personnel message no. But u did tell me yes.

 

Oh and i thought of another force power Master speed *entire world flooded in my drool* *sorry*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I see your just drooling anyway

[oherror]

its never going to happen at least not in this game. if you don't want to play as a jedi go play the starwars mmo that i won't even mentions it name....it fit your style. then a least you complaintes would be valid.

[Judge Hades]

I hate MMORPGs.

 

I want a good non-jedi option ins a Single Player Star Wars CRPG.

[Darth Sirius]

I hate MMORPGs.

 

I want a good non-jedi option ins a Single Player Star Wars CRPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree absolutely, MMORPG's are full of ignorant people who, because they may have been there a while think they are 'above' the newbs, we all have to start somewhere, and maybe if I started playing regularlly I would get in with the crowd, but to be honest, after my initial dealings with the 'regulars' I honestly didnt want to. The only normal people on them are the newbs!

 

And yes a good single player non-jedi game would be sweet, but im still very far from convinced that the KotOR franchise as a whole is 'it' so to speak

[oherror]

well hades keep dreaming...they will keep making games with jedi until its not profitable.

[ShinIchiro]

I too agree with hades in general, but not in this game. I've argued with him alot about this and there's alot of evidence either way, but it comes down to personal preference and previous gaming experience. I as an FF player (this be my first CRPG i think) found this game extremely expansive with alot of possibilities. hades, a crpger, found this limiting.

 

Now, if this were a traditional CRPG, hades would win easily. If this were a traditional console game, the jedi fans would win. HOwever, as this game is a mix of the two (as i've been saying alot recently), there's room either way.

[Sugrob]

Well, what's the problem with making KotOR 2 (or KotOR 3/KotNR, this late in KotOR 2's development) playable as both Jedi and non-Jedi? That'd only take a few minor storyline/gameplay changes that wouldn't be all that difficult to make.

 

If you think KotOR series should be Jedi-only, - fine by me, you can wish whatever you want. But why do you want to limit the others, those who do not think that way? Is it some sort of fetish that gets you off? Sheesh... If you only want to play Jedi, - go ahead and don't play non-Jedi, nobody's forcing you to (no pun).

 

Sorry for that rant, but that kind of attitude in people just ticks me off sometimes... <_<

[starwarskid15_19]

this game its not possible to be nonjedi. ur players ENTIRE background is him as a jedi. he was a jedi in the mandalore wars. he was an exiled jedi. he regains coneection to the force. he looks for his lightsaber

[Sugrob]

this game its not possible to be nonjedi. ur players ENTIRE background is him as a jedi. he was a jedi in the mandalore wars. he was an exiled jedi. he regains coneection to the force.  he looks for his lightsaber

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You (your PC) could just say that he/she isn't ready to accept the Force back just yet, for example. So you could play non-Jedi no problem.

 

But yes, I understand that it's not going to happen with KotOR 2. The game's prette much done, so making such changes isn't possible right now.

 

Yet this is possible to do with KotOR 3/KotNR, if they come into existance (and there's little doubt they will). And this could've easily been done in KotOR 1. It would've only taken a few, very minor, changes to dialogues and a few events.

[GhostofAnakin]

You (your PC) could just say that he/she isn't ready to accept the Force back just yet, for example. So you could play non-Jedi no problem.

 

But yes, I understand that it's not going to happen with KotOR 2. The game's prette much done, so making such changes isn't possible right now.

 

Yet this is possible to do with KotOR 3/KotNR, if they come into existance (and there's little doubt they will). And this could've easily been done in KotOR 1. It would've only taken a few, very minor, changes to dialogues and a few events.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think it was possible at all in KOTOR 1. Remember the game is trying to re-create the Star Wars universe seen in the movies. So how would it have been anywhere near realistic for a non-Jedi to take on and defeat not only a DS Bastila, but a Sith Lord like Malak?

 

Han Solo was one of the best non-Jedi characters in terms of fighting ability and whatnot, but do you remember what happened the only time he faced Vader on Cloud City? Yeah, Vader just deflected his blaster bolts then used the Force to pull the gun from his grasp. The ONLY character that could face Vader and the Emperor was the only other Force user.

 

That is why I don't think it's realistic or feasible in the KOTOR story, to have the PC as a non-Jedi, especially when the "end boss" is supposedly a powerful Sith Lord.

[Sugrob]

I don't think it was possible at all in KOTOR 1.  Remember the game is trying to re-create the Star Wars universe seen in the movies.  So how would it have been anywhere near realistic for a non-Jedi to take on and defeat not only a DS Bastila, but a Sith Lord like Malak?

 

Han Solo was one of the best non-Jedi characters in terms of fighting ability and whatnot, but do you remember what happened the only time he faced Vader on Cloud City?  Yeah, Vader just deflected his blaster bolts then used the Force to pull the gun from his grasp.  The ONLY character that could face Vader and the Emperor was the only other Force user.

 

That is why I don't think it's realistic or feasible in the KOTOR story, to have the PC as a non-Jedi, especially when the "end boss" is supposedly a powerful Sith Lord.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Easy. Mind-Affecting/Poison/Electricity-immunizing items are quite affordable in KotOR. And Treat Injury skill is your friend. Then just try raising your saving throws at every turn, and Malak's as good as dead.

 

As for the whole concept of non-Forcers defeating the Force-users, why isn't it possible? Just because the fanbase says so? Or simply because Jedi is the thing you love about SW and can't concieve of the possibility of a Jedi being defeated by non-Jedi?

[GhostofAnakin]

Easy. Mind-Affecting/Poison/Electricity-immunizing items are quite affordable in KotOR. And Treat Injury skill is your friend. Then just try raising your saving throws at every turn, and Malak's as good as dead.

 

As for the whole concept of non-Forcers defeating the Force-users, why isn't it possible? Just because the fanbase says so? Or simply because Jedi is the thing you love about SW and can't concieve of the possibility of a Jedi being defeated by non-Jedi?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Umm? Has nothing to do with because the "fanbase" says so. Look at the movies, which is where the game draws it's inspiration.

 

And again, you're suggesting reasons from a GAMING point of view. I said look at the Star Wars movies and universe. There aren't ways to "pause while i'm fighting so i can use a medpac" in the movies.

[Sugrob]

Umm?  Has nothing to do with because the "fanbase" says so.  Look at the movies, which is where the game draws it's inspiration.

 

And again, you're suggesting reasons from a GAMING point of view.  I said look at the Star Wars movies and universe.  There aren't ways to "pause while i'm fighting so i can use a medpac" in the movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, we are talking about how that should be implemented in the games. Or is that beside the point, I wonder?...

 

As for the movies, there weren't many such combat encounters between the two to really judge who'd win and who'd lose every time. So that's really up to fanbase's speculation, which is why I mentioned it.

[Parph Dioak]

I kind of agree but its not like most of us would play as a non Jedi.

[Muad'Dib]

While it may be plausible that a non-Force user find a way to defeat a Force user (Like Jango did in Ep2 though I find that particular incident insulting) it is impossible that a non-Force user go through hordes of Force user enemies and Sith Lords and the such and survive, much less win. This in accordance with the rules of the SW universe as presented.

 

Sure you could run around in a game defeating bunches of Jedi and Sith as a mere soldier or something like that but that would be completely unrealistic. Not because any fanbase says it, because you only have to use logic in comparing the abilities and skills of the two to make a reasonable assumption about who would win.

 

Killing one Jedi, two....could happen. Maybe some more but these Jedi would have to be at padawans, poorly skilled at both the Force and the saber, have some kind of huge disadvantage or combinations of these. But it would go beyond suspension of disbelief that a non-Force user could go through an entire army of Jedi or Sith by him/herself and win.

 

For a non-Force user PC in a SW CRPG, it would be best to set the enemies more up to par with those abilities and have enemies that resemble the Empire, Black Sun, Hutts, etc.

[Judge Hades]

I think you are underestimating non-force users.

[alanschu]

I don't think it's about underestimating non-force users

 

I think it's about the creators of the d20 Star Wars system that, in the interest of balance, made non-force users stronger/force users weaker (or a combination).

 

Nothing from Star Wars canon (movies) really indicates that a non-force user would have much of a chance against a Jedi if the Jedi wanted to best him at something.

 

 

I wouldn't have a problem with a Star Wars CRPG that used all the rules. The problems that come into play are that people that buy the game DO have a real love for the Jedi, so that's all their gonna play anyways. However, since you must make a game that utilizes other classes just as effective, it would probably take away from some of the Jedi experience, and that's not gonna make them happy (for better or worse).

 

Although I do not feel that it would have been possible to accurately roleplay a non-force using character through the KOTOR world, especially considering the design of the game was specifically catered to the person being a Jedi.

[Muad'Dib]

Hardly Hades_One, it's pretty obvious when you look at either character. I'm not saying Jedi/Sith are unkillable, far from it, or that a non-Force user can't kill a Jedi. I said it would be unrealistic for this particular character to face an army of Jedi/Siths and survive much less win.

 

The movies hardly seem to demonstrate Jedi using their abilities to the maximum of their potentials (Which always bothered me). Imagine if instead of running at the droids with their sabers raised like idiot lumberjacks in the Geonosian arena of Ep2, the Jedi had all banded and used their Force powers simultaneously or in the least strategically in coordinated efforts (You know somewhat the way we use it in the games) to unarm, topple over, fling, short circuit or whatever Force power of your choosing to attack the droids. Imagine if the Jedi used their powers in combinations with their saber instead of one or two times like Fisto dropping C-3PO. Or if they used Force Speed to fight where a normal humanoid or android can't even see more than a blur. There are tons of other examples I could give where any one without any Force powers would find themselves in a huge disadvantage and most probably lose against the Force user.

 

Does this mean that a non-Force user can't come up with a way to cleverly kill a Force user, of course not. Using guile, cunning, and maybe a little improvisation from an experienced combatant they might be able to take a Jedi down, if using explosives where somehow a group of Jedi is trapped maybe can kill them all in a one swipe. However, take some poor schmuck just doing battle with a blaster rifle against say three Sith warriors (True Sith, not KotOR's Empire wannabes) as sometimes appeared in the first game; then one can disarm him and immobilize him with the Force, the second cuts him to itty bitty pieces and the third can just do a happy dance while looking on. Now put this PC in this situation about a five hundred times and you are seriously telling me the PC comes out victoriously every single one of those...I just wouldn't buy it. Now say we have a scoundrel PC like Han Solo coming up against the main villain who's something like Vader. If ESB is still fresh in memory you can just see how that scene would play out.

 

Don't get me wrong Hades_One, I'm not voting against doing a SW CRPG with a non-Force user (Or a choice to be that) as the PC, I'm saying the formula doesn't work for KotOR. To be able to do that, you need to balance the opposition the PC will face to a believable level (Especially in a game where you take down 700 opponents with little or no help). So this would work if the enemy faced was something like the Empire, people who the PC can actually use his/her skills or wits to defeat them through the course of an entire game. Sure you can put in an enemy Force user or a few more, maybe these will be those really excrutiating boss battles where you have to do everything and anything to win. But it would be completely unbelievable if that character is the Lord of the Sith or even a really powerful master of the Force and saber. Even though SW is a fictional universe with fantastic laws you still have to abide by the realism of those laws otherwise you're just making stuff up as you go along.

[Alyt]

Certain persons won't be satisfied unless the game is renamed Fallout 3. If you don't like Jedi, go play Stupid looking trolls and elves 4.

[GhostofAnakin]

I think you are underestimating non-force users.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the best visual explanation of how a non-Jedi would do against a Jedi/Sith is Jango Fett vs. Mace Windu.

 

By all accounts, Jango Fett could be argued as the best and most lethal non-Jedi character in the SW universe, in terms of fighting ability. Yet when he came up against Windu one on one, he got his head chopped off with ease.

 

So with that in mind, how would a non-Jedi take on hordes of Dark Jedi and Sith Lords if they have trouble with one single Jedi Master?

 

Anyone who believes that a non-Jedi would have a chance defeating powerful Sith Lords clearly doesn't understand the Star Wars universe.

[Baneblade]

Does use of powerful explosives or orbital bombartment count, if so then YES if not, the i'll go for NO !

[Judge Hades]

The problem with Jango, beyond being scripted to die there, is that he went in with a full assault and used no tactics. My non-jedi would lay several wonderful mines, keep a thermal detonator hand or five handy, and create a nice little trap for the Jedi or Sith.

 

If Jango used his rocket back and rained various deadly grenades around the Jedis instead of being stupid and go straight in up front confrontation it would be Windu done for the count.

[GhostofAnakin]

The problem with Jango, beyond being scripted to die there, is that he went in with a full assault and used no tactics.  My non-jedi would lay several wonderful mines, keep a thermal detonator hand or five handy, and create a nice little trap for the Jedi or Sith.

 

If Jango used his rocket back and rained various deadly grenades around the Jedis instead of being stupid and go straight in up front confrontation it would be Windu done for the count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, because a fully trained Jedi Master/Sith Lord would be dumb enough to just walk through a minefield or stand there while you toss a thermal detonator at them.

 

I reiterate; you underestimate what a Jedi can do against a non-Jedi and overestimate what a non-Jedi can do.

[Judge Hades]

Just walk through, no, but chasing my non-Jedi down to kill him, yes. Killed many a Sith doing that in KotOR.

 

Also if there wa a Z-Axis I would love to been able to fly and just drop grenades on their heads. :D

[Drakron]

No, you over estimate what a Jedi can do and that is the problem with the recent bunch of Star Wars "fans" ... they treat Jedi as literal gods.

 

There are limits to what a Jedi can do, yes they have the Force as a powerful ally but even the Force have limits, starting with the Jedi own limitation in understanding the Force.

 

Even a master have limits and lets not forget the Jedi that Jango shoot was none other that a Jedi Master and member of the Jedi Council, Jango tactic against Mace was stupid since Mace had a clear advantage in that kind of battle, personaly I would fly around it fire rockets at him.