The All Things Political Topic - Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence

[uuuhhii]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

I have found politics bothers me so much less now that I ignore it completely. 

 

like one would be bother less by weather if they shut down weather satellite

until weather hit them

[Bartimaeus]

13 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am sooper happy you finally found your zen after a decade o' hyperbolic efforts to convince us they is all equal bad.

I guess at least Guard Dog didn't do Keyrock's special brand of pretending to be "both sides"-ing while actually supporting and voting for the exact type of scum he constantly railed against. That was some real bozotown stuff.

18 hours ago, Gromnir said:

scotus may simple says that whether or not the US is at war with tren de aragua is a political question not suitable for judicial review. Congress has options to declare that trump is exceeding his authority and it is up to that branch o' government to exercise their Constitutional authority, if they wish to do so. silence by Congress would functional = acquiescence. if scotus says the issue is a political question and not a legal one, then trump wins.

Sigh. Whenever the law leaves something up for Congress to decide, it's pretty safe to say that it's doomed. It's the same reason I question why Trump has not already decided to just to start ignoring judges altogether - or begin imprisoning or killing them. The only remedy at that point would be Congress, and he should feel pretty assured at this point that they'll do nothing.

[Bartimaeus]

Meant to reply to this:

17 hours ago, Lexx said:

It doesn't really mean much yet, but it could help in banning the party at some point down the line.

While I'm all in favor of deplatforming hate to minimize its exposure and spreading as much as possible, banning political parties already on the upswing...does not have the greatest track record of working out for the people wanting/doing the banning. Banning other political parties when you're the party that was on the upswing and you've just gained power, on the other hand? Much more successful. I'm not generally a fan of moving further to the right, but sometimes I wonder if it might not be a bad idea for the left-ish parties to figure out what is the single biggest issue driving voters to parties like AfD (immigration?) and meaningfully act on it (but humanely and legally) before it's too late, before they get thrown out entirely and the opposition decides state-sponsored kidnappings and deportations of people to gulags in countries that your courts have no jurisdiction over a la the U.S. is a good idea.

Edited 20 hours ago by Bartimaeus

[uuuhhii]

18 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Meant to reply to this:

While I'm all in favor of deplatforming hate to minimize its exposure and spreading as much as possible, banning political parties already on the upswing...does not have the greatest track record of working out for the people wanting/doing the banning. Banning other political parties when you're the party that was on the upswing and you've just gained power, on the other hand? Much more successful. I'm not generally a fan of moving further to the right, but sometimes I wonder if it might not be a bad idea for the left-ish parties to figure out what is the single biggest issue driving voters to parties like AfD (immigration?) and meaningfully act on it (but humanely and legally) before it's too late, before they get thrown out entirely and the opposition decides state-sponsored kidnappings and deportations of people to gulags in countries that your courts have no jurisdiction over a la the U.S. is a good idea.

 

best not pretend there are still time and opportunity to handle afd with delicacy and care

afd destroy germany first or germany destroy afd first

[Bartimaeus]

57 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

 

best not pretend there are still time and opportunity to handle afd with delicacy and care

afd destroy germany first or germany destroy afd first

Yes, that's great, but it does nothing to actually address the fact that an increasingly large percentage of Germany's population evidently shares their values (at least more so than they do the other parties) and intends to put their leaders in charge - whether it's under the banner of "Alternative for Germany" or something else, it won't really much matter when/if it happens. Banning a growing party is just a speedbump measure, especially given that it apparently takes years to classify a party as extremist and even longer to ban them as a result. And I have to wonder if banning a party doesn't have an effect much like trying to assassinate a candidate...more coverage, more eyes on that coverage, more exposure to their leaders and platform, more outrage that they were banned, and more votes when they come back under whatever new name they decide on when the first one is banned. As I said, banning strengthening parties historically just doesn't have the greatest track record of working out.

The 'beautiful' thing about democracy is that the politicians and parties that don't use their current power and authoritarian measures to stay in power seem to so often find themselves eventually kicked out and then stomped on by the people who will.

Edited 19 hours ago by Bartimaeus

[Guard Dog]

14 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am sooper happy you finally found your zen after a decade o' hyperbolic efforts to convince us they is all equal bad.

 

My God haven't the last eight years, Trump Part 1, Biden, then Trump Part 2 not demonstrated that they ARE equally bad? Albeit in different ways bad. The two political parties of this country, in their current state, are not just bad, they are deranged.  Up until the day Obama and the 114th Congress walked out the door it may have been a tad hyperbolic so suggest they were "equally" bad. They were both terrible at times and less so at others. But since 2017 it's gone over a cliff. 

I've met a lot of folks with Trump euphoria that is nonsensical to me. But in the words of a country song; it's funny how falling feels likely flyin'.... but only for a little while. 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I guess at least Guard Dog didn't do Keyrock's special brand of pretending to be "both sides"-ing while actually supporting and voting for the exact type of scum he constantly railed against. That was some real bozotown stuff.

 

I once favored the elephants over the donkeys. It took working on a congressional campaign in 1994 to change my mind about that. Shortly after that I was dyed in the wool Libertarian and have been ever since. The more exposure you have to politicians the more you will come to hate them and everything they say, do, think, and stand for. 

[Bartimaeus]

oh god he's still doing it

[Guard Dog]

29 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

oh god he's still doing it

And here I thought you appreciated my consistency! 

[Malcador]

54 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

As I said, banning strengthening parties historically just doesn't have the greatest track record of working out.

Which cases are you referring to ?

Addressing immigration might cut into AfD support, although not sure if people want mass deportations or just want it as a solution to a perceived problem.  Have to hope that would splinter it, maybe, as Germany is healthy enough to have more than two parties.  

But from what I've read the AfD has reached its ceiling? 

[Gromnir]

54 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

oh god he's still doing it

we didn't have any doubt. he did the false equivalency stuff from the moment trump took office in jan 2017, embracing far-right talking points and conspiracy theories. gd convinced self that such were ok 'cause he knew in his bones that the libs wanted a state run police force that would take away his guns and round up dissenters in fema camps... if they just got a chance to do so. biden comes to office and just like during obama, none of his nightmares came true... so we get more o' the false equivalency and conspiracy theories; he needed to believe the biden administration were just as bad as trump.

we could literal be here all day listing the ways in which trump 1.0 were orders of magnitude more o' a threat to the US Constitutional order than biden's tepid embrace o' wokeism and his, in retrospect, ordinary incompetence. we did so for freaking years... and for f&%$'s sake, how do these people keep with the memory hole nonsense?

now, faced with a mere 100 days o' trump violations o' morality and law which somehow managed to be worse than Gromnir's predictions, folks like gd need convince self that kamala woulda' been just as bad, 'cause they are all bad. gd needs to believe such silly 'cause is folks like gd, voting 3rd party or not voting at all, who put us in this situation. am actual less anoyed with the complete disconnected and uneducated folks who voted for trump 'cause they thought he would lower the price of eggs. 

given the conspiracy theories gd would routine share as proof and defense o' his peculiar brand o' wacky, we were certain he were absorbing questionable sources o' information to fuel his world view. moving to rural wisconsin, a battleground state, so weren't gonna improve the chances o' him having some kinda epiphany. if you literal cannot see a fundamental difference 'tween trump authoritarianism and the biden administration, then...

*shrug*

yeah, am seeing the black humor in the recognition that now, when many of his worst predictions 'bout they is being realized in real time, gd feels comfortable ignoring politics.

 

that said, we do hope he is doing well in terms o' health.

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit): brain fart... had "jan 2016"

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

Company Boasts Spending Up To $20 Million On Trump Crypto Coin To Buy Influence

they ain't even hiding the corruption anymore. 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

You know who's worse than Drump? Javier Milei

But because Argentina isn't a world power, we don't hear anything about his garbage every single day

[Lexx]

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Meant to reply to this:

While I'm all in favor of deplatforming hate to minimize its exposure and spreading as much as possible, banning political parties already on the upswing...does not have the greatest track record of working out for the people wanting/doing the banning. Banning other political parties when you're the party that was on the upswing and you've just gained power, on the other hand? Much more successful. I'm not generally a fan of moving further to the right, but sometimes I wonder if it might not be a bad idea for the left-ish parties to figure out what is the single biggest issue driving voters to parties like AfD (immigration?) and meaningfully act on it (but humanely and legally) before it's too late, before they get thrown out entirely and the opposition decides state-sponsored kidnappings and deportations of people to gulags in countries that your courts have no jurisdiction over a la the U.S. is a good idea.

Germany has many safeguards for this. It is really hard to ban political parties and can't be done "just so" - even the NPD many years ago, was never banned. In the end, what they did was to stop the funding and the problem solved itself. Just keep that in mind when you read about banning parties.. it's not easy and it can't happen from one day to the next. It's taken extremely serious.

That said, ofc I agree that removing the party in itself does not solve the issues that created it in the first place. In the end, it probably will cause the other big parties to once again sit on their asses and not doing anything substantial again. It's quite infuriating.

[uuuhhii]

30 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

You know who's worse than Drump? Javier Milei

But because Argentina isn't a world power, we don't hear anything about his garbage every single day

 

argentina was very eager to be seen as the most loyal usa proxy since milei takeover

wonder if usa crush and burn will cause argentina to collapse even faster

will the cultist of argentina blame everything wrong on usa and refuse to change course

[ShadySands]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

My God haven't the last eight years, Trump Part 1, Biden, then Trump Part 2 not demonstrated that they ARE equally bad?

I agree that they are all bad but I strongly disagree that they are equally bad.

I try to stay out of the weeds of most of this stuff because it's so horribly depressing but Biden, who I also disliked, did not make me question what rights and what country my kids might grow up into.  

[Malcador]

 

 

[Pidesco]

[Zoraptor]

Even AI thinks Trump is a bad guy.

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Shortly after that I was dyed in the wool Libertarian and have been ever since. The more exposure you have to politicians..

James Weeks confirmed as most successful politician of all time?

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I agree that they are all bad but I strongly disagree that they are equally bad.

I try to stay out of the weeds of most of this stuff because it's so horribly depressing but Biden, who I also disliked, did not make me question what rights and what country my kids might grow up into.  

y'know how many times am having made same point to gd regarding his need to find false equivalency 'tween trump and other administrations... and that were pre trump 2.0. 

 

...

and am gonna admit am extreme disappointed not just in gd but in most americans insofar as cecot is concerned. 

if cecot were in the US, could trump send people there indefinite w/o a full criminal trial? hell no, and am suspecting even gd recognizes such.  am not sure how trump has managed to dr. mesmer so many into thinking the fundamental question is about whether or not the people being sent to el salvador is tren de aragua. w/o due process necessary to prove andry hernandez romero and neri jose alvarado borges is tren de aragua, it were wrong to deport 'em... but they weren't just deported for chrissakes. 5th and 6th Amendments guarantee the right to a criminal jury trial if the government is gonna punish, and is no way gd or anybody else is gonna reasonable argue that being held indefinite in cecot ain't a punishment. what is happening is not just deportations. 

maybe it comes as a surprise to some, but when the government goes before judges they is not trying to legitimize cecot by claiming those being sent to el salvador is gang members. the government has not offered ANY proof in court that those sent to cecot is gang members; is trump, jd vance, and marco rubio who keep bringing up gang membership when talking to the press. according to the government, invoke the AEA means trump don't need to prove  gang membership.

now bring up burisma or some other whatabout nonsense?

the thing is, there is a dozen or so trump 2.0 issues that got us near as angry as cecot.  am ashamed that the freaking oval office meeting with zelensky probable doesn't make our top ten, and most of the tariff stuff, while it is the kinda thing which is most likely to anger americans, bothers us less than the blatant authoritarianism o' many other actions... tariffs is another situation where the real problem is Congress being cowardly and unwilling to stop clear Presidential overreach. 

regardless, gd and his false equivalency fantasies is at least a decade old. am not sure how he convinces himself that trump 2.0 is no worse than biden, but am not at all surprised.

as should be obvious by now, and contrary to @Lexx fever dreams, am having for a long time been warning that institutional limits on trump are not genuine obstacles. is nothing too illegal or improbable when speaking o' trump. as such am not surprised by trump, save insofar as the recognition too many americans are ok with any trump excess. trump may be corrupt. he may be a criminal. he may have tried to overturn the 2020 election. but maybe he can get trans people outta sports and perhaps he can lower the cost of eggs, so am willing to ignore the bad stuff. serious?

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Gromnir

[Pidesco]

10 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

regardless, gd and his false equivalency fantasies is at least a decade old. am not sure how he convinces himself that trump 2.0 is no worse than biden, but am not at all surprised.

I'd say more than 15 years old, at least. The whole false equivalence bit is probably a fundamental part of his self, so it will never, ever change. Expecting GD to think differently in that respect is akin to expecting his eye color to change, or something.

[Malcador]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-administration/trump-defends-high-cost-military-parade-peanuts-rcna204581

45 MM isn't that much, but considering the amounts they were gloating about it seems funny.  At least clever to use the Army anniversary as his cover.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Malcador

[rjshae]

6 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

My God haven't the last eight years, Trump Part 1, Biden, then Trump Part 2 not demonstrated that they ARE equally bad? Albeit in different ways bad. The two political parties of this country, in their current state, are not just bad, they are deranged.  Up until the day Obama and the 114th Congress walked out the door it may have been a tad hyperbolic so suggest they were "equally" bad. They were both terrible at times and less so at others. But since 2017 it's gone over a cliff. 

I've met a lot of folks with Trump euphoria that is nonsensical to me. But in the words of a country song; it's funny how falling feels likely flyin'.... but only for a little while. 

I disagree with your claim they are 'equally' bad. Compared to the elected USA presidents over the last fifty years, Biden was average; Trump is incompetent.

[Hurlshort]

I'm really excited that we've got most of the old band back together. Good to see @Gromnir and @Guard Dog in the politics thread.  

[Lexx]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

 

 

Way to make me dislike the Star Wars franchise even more.