France Olympics 2024

[Gorgon]

18 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

I just read the story on this. Your hot take is dumb. Imane Khelif is not transgender. She's not even new to the Olympics. She lost in 2020 in the semi-finals. 

https://time.com/7006338/imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting-gender-controversy-olympics-women-boxing/

Genetics are complicated. Should Michael Phelps be disqualified because he has a freakish wingspan? 

 

the problem isn't transgenderism it's transhumanism. Remember back in the 90s where all the Russian gymnasts were so hopped up on hormones that they took all the medals and no one else could really compete. After that they developed a test to rule out competitors with extreme muscle density, I don't know the exact details, but a failing the test would disallow people from competing as females, she failed the test. which means she is either a genetic anomaly, or a cheater, i.e. doping. She hasn't failed a doping test to my knowledge, but they aren't perfect.

[Hurlshort]

26 minutes ago, Gorgon said:

the problem isn't transgenderism it's transhumanism. Remember back in the 90s where all the Russian gymnasts were so hopped up on hormones that they took all the medals and no one else could really compete. After that they developed a test to rule out competitors with extreme muscle density, I don't know the exact details, but a failing the test would disallow people from competing as females, she failed the test. which means she is either a genetic anomaly, or a cheater, i.e. doping. She hasn't failed a doping test to my knowledge, but they aren't perfect.

She is a genetic anomaly, which around 5 percent of the population is. But she was was born female and didn't ever transition, which people seem to be struggling to understand. 

But that's the whole issue with all of this gender politics stuff. Genetics are not black and white. They are complicated.

[uuuhhii]

as many have predicted

because the population of trans people are so incredibly low

great number of other discriminated people will become the victim of transphobia

[Gorgon]

45 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

She is a genetic anomaly, which around 5 percent of the population is. But she was was born female and didn't ever transition, which people seem to be struggling to understand. 

But that's the whole issue with all of this gender politics stuff. Genetics are not black and white. They are complicated.

Indeed. 

[Zoraptor]

It is kind of funny to see people say the accusations are all Russian propaganda from a Russian organisation. Fairly sure the Russians wouldn't target Algeria, their north African ally, nor China. There's no actual reason to suspect anything other than a genuine issue at play and it being embarrassing for the IOC. Similarly, extremely 'funny' seeing the usual suspects claiming she's transgender when they also tend to regard Arabs as being incredibly backwards. Not like Algeria is a religious hotbed with women stoned on the street for showing an ankle but still, they also aren't the Sweden of 101 stereotypes either.

3 hours ago, Gorgon said:

the problem isn't transgenderism it's transhumanism. Remember back in the 90s where all the Russian gymnasts were so hopped up on hormones that they took all the medals and no one else could really compete. After that they developed a test to rule out competitors with extreme muscle density, I don't know the exact details, but a failing the test would disallow people from competing as females, she failed the test. which means she is either a genetic anomaly, or a cheater, i.e. doping. She hasn't failed a doping test to my knowledge, but they aren't perfect.

The famous case was an East German shotput or hammer thrower who essentially transitioned involuntarily from all the androgens she was given (but at least won gold, iirc). Indeed, there are a bunch of women's records set in the 80s that still stand; far more than for mens athletics.

(Definitely wasn't just the eastern bloc doing it though, there are a decent number of not closely challenged since 80s records set by americans as well)

[Hurlshort]

27 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

(Definitely wasn't just the eastern bloc doing it though, there are a decent number of not closely challenged since 80s records set by americans as well)

[Fionavar]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:25 AM, Chilloutman said:

Hah, some bloke beat the holy jebus out of some lady in box match, was funny to watch her cry as her lifetime dream was taken away in few seconds by show of male superiority xD

As the conversation is unfolding, I will remind all community members that OBS' fora are grounded in an understating of inclusivity and celebration of diversity. Do indeed debate but also remember that discriminatory or (ex)implicit argumentation that diminishes the dignity of others is contrary to the ethos of this community and the Forum Guidelines. 

[Amentep]

13 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It is kind of funny to see people say the accusations are all Russian propaganda from a Russian organisation. Fairly sure the Russians wouldn't target Algeria, their north African ally, nor China. There's no actual reason to suspect anything other than a genuine issue at play and it being embarrassing for the IOC.

From what I read, the Algerian and Taiwanese boxers werent disqualified until they beat specific boxers (a Russian and Bulgarian) at the IBA championships but the disqualification was on failed results the IBA already had from earlier tests. Further, the IBA has denied requests to provide the Algerian boxer or her coaches the test results, have not described what test were done and if translations I've read are correct haven't been consistent with what the tests showed.

If that's true, seems like there's more reason to be suspicious of the IBA here than 'lol Russians'.

[Mamoulian War]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It is kind of funny to see people say the accusations are all Russian propaganda from a Russian organisation. Fairly sure the Russians wouldn't target Algeria, their north African ally, nor China. There's no actual reason to suspect anything other than a genuine issue at play and it being embarrassing for the IOC. Similarly, extremely 'funny' seeing the usual suspects claiming she's transgender when they also tend to regard Arabs as being incredibly backwards. Not like Algeria is a religious hotbed with women stoned on the street for showing an ankle but still, they also aren't the Sweden of 101 stereotypes either.

The famous case was an East German shotput or hammer thrower who essentially transitioned involuntarily from all the androgens she was given (but at least won gold, iirc). Indeed, there are a bunch of women's records set in the 80s that still stand; far more than for mens athletics.

(Definitely wasn't just the eastern bloc doing it though, there are a decent number of not closely challenged since 80s records set by americans as well)

They are not attacking Algeria, they are attacking "the Western conservative values". It has absolutely nothing to do, that she is Algerian, it has everything to do, to further divide the people in the EU. Especially in the Eastern European member states, where this has turned into abomination feeding on hate, misogynia and LGBTI+ hate. Which further fuels Russian hybrid war goals...

[Zoraptor]

So the Italian boxer was... bribed by Russia to throw in the towel to get eastern Europeans upset? Doesn't seem overly likely.

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

From what I read, the Algerian and Taiwanese boxers werent disqualified until they beat specific boxers (a Russian and Bulgarian) at the IBA championships but the disqualification was on failed results the IBA already had from earlier tests. Further, the IBA has denied requests to provide the Algerian boxer or her coaches the test results, have not described what test were done and if translations I've read are correct haven't been consistent with what the tests showed.

If that's true, seems like there's more reason to be suspicious of the IBA here than 'lol Russians'.

The last boxer Khalif beat at the 2023 IBA WC (?and the one who got upgraded to bronze after her disqualification?*) was South Korean. She did beat a Russian in the 1st round, but went on to box twice (*) after that. What the tests showed has certainly not been consistent in the press since both elevated testosterone and genetically male chromosomes have been stated as being the cause there, but the IBA chair has specifically said it was a chromosomal result ie XY/ genetic maleness which caused the dq in the last day or so. That is ~trivial to disprove if it were false, and neither appealed to the CAS which you'd expect as a matter of course.

The wikipedia article is actually kind of funny in retrospect as the dqs were not considered enough to even make the 'controversies' section.

End of the day the issue is caused by the IOC not having the courage to make actual Olympic wide rules about the issue and just issuing an extraordinarily wishy washy "Framework" instead. If they did make actual rules it wouldn't matter whether it was them or the IBA or World Athletics deciding eligibility and all of Lin, Khalif and Semenya would be free- or not- to compete based on rules everyone knew. But they can't do that, because any decision they made would inevitably offend someone and cut down on their commercial opportunities.

*for extra confusion, the official results have the ROK boxer winning 5-0 instead of by dq, and Khalif is credited with coming =5th. Unlike Lin who does have a dq result and isn't placed at all, but obviously did box since she progressed to the quarters. Everyone seems to agree Khalif was actually dqed as well though.

[Amentep]

Probably doesn't help with squaring information vs disinformation that IBA & IOC have their own issues, sure. The court thing is weird, seen a lot of claims about what was/wasnt presented there but haven't had time to see if I could fund a full statement.

I'd imagine part of the problem with universal rules is there's probably not a lot of data on the wide variety of intersex possibilities and how they effect athletic ability.

[Zoraptor]

They wouldn't actually be fully universal rules since for some sports the competitors' sex is irrelevant (eg equestrian). The idea would be that the IOC sets actual rules so that the relevant associations have to be consistent.

In isolation, there's nothing wrong with the IOC deciding Lin and Khalif or anyone else can compete and overruling the relevant association, but it isn't in isolation. It's not as obviously inconsistent as the previous Olympics where you had Semenya effectively banned while a fully transgender athlete was allowed to compete, but that was only 3 years ago, and Semenya is still only 33 and could have plausibly still been competing even now.

They should have- need, as a minimum requirement- a system to stop bodies like World Athletics or the IBA, though I find the evidence for it being a personal targeting of Lin/ Khalif unconvincing, being able to specifically target athletes. To put it that perspective, World Athletics completely ignored the recommendation that some field events be covered by the same rules and only applied them to the track events Semenya competed in; compared to Khalif beating a Russian a week earlier who remained out of the competition. Given the context of the controversy all being manufactured by Russia now it's also worth pointing out that the most strident competitor critics of the 2016 800m women's event were... a Pole, and a Brit.

 

[BruceVC]

Its disappointing that this boxing incident has become the point of focus and interest in a thread that is about the Olympics, the greatest sports event of all time

Is anyone actually watching the Olympics, the  achievements and medal wins? I have watched multiple events and I tend to watch athletics, swimming,  gymnastics and then events that I consider exciting but unusual like judo, mountain biking  and archery. We have multiple channels to watch the variety of events and the hardest part is what to watch. This week and weekend are final stages and its the best time to watch 

[Sarex]

Novak finally caught the last Pokemon. Will be interesting to see what he does now.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Novak finally caught the last Pokemon. Will be interesting to see what he does now.

https://sports.yahoo.com/paris-olympics-novak-djokovic-fills-the-only-hole-on-his-resume--olympic-gold-150227223.html

 

And this is the type of post I was expecting on this thread, its about the sports achievement that the Olympics creates

Well done  Novak, your place in sports history is guaranteed 

 

[Malcador]

Canada lost in football to Germany, that was good.  Some atrocious penalties, still amazed they beat Sweden last time

[Chilloutman]

On 8/3/2024 at 9:09 AM, Fionavar said:

As the conversation is unfolding, I will remind all community members that OBS' fora are grounded in an understating of inclusivity and celebration of diversity. Do indeed debate but also remember that discriminatory or (ex)implicit argumentation that diminishes the dignity of others is contrary to the ethos of this community and the Forum Guidelines. 

well I am confused, did I violated guidelines anyhow? I can celebrate LGBT+ person but than I kinda feel I am diminishing dignity of women in that case. I have to practice a lot of double think to stay safe on those grounds xD

I don't see anything in guidelines I am even close to be getting to

[HoonDing]

Mahuchikh is brilliant.

[Malcador]

Ah, didn't realize the Russians were banned from Artistic Swimming effectively. They've owned that event for 20 years.

[Fionavar]

3 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

well I am confused, did I violated guidelines anyhow? I can celebrate LGBT+ person but than I kinda feel I am diminishing dignity of women in that case. I have to practice a lot of double think to stay safe on those grounds xD

I don't see anything in guidelines I am even close to be getting to

If Guidelines were violated the messaging would have been different and via DM. It was simply an encouragement to recognise the sensitivities involved and as a response to some concern that was brought to my attention. hope this is helpful. Feel free to follow-up in DM if there are concerns.

[HoonDing]

22 hours ago, Malcador said:

Ah, didn't realize the Russians were banned from Artistic Swimming effectively. They've owned that event for 20 years.

Free medals for China, I guess

[HoonDing]

Duplantis farming records like Bubka

[HoonDing]

only thing better than French losing, is Germans losing

 

 

[Sarex]

The judging was ****ing atrocious.

[HoonDing]

There are four identical twins in the women's duet (synchronized swimming).

Shame the Russians aren't around.