Gaza - conflict, war, land, water rights, bad colonional legacies...

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, Sarex said:

People don't understand that Jews were not tolerated in the western world before WW2.

people (many/most) don't understand that ww2 hardly resulted in instant tolerance o' jews from the western world. is a common misunderstanding that europeans and americans welcomed displaced jews after ww2 and that just ain't the case. it took america a couple years to abolish anti-jewish immigration laws which had been in place since the late 1800s and remained throughout ww2, and the US were far more accommodating than most o' europe.... and then the cold war ramped up (almost immediate after ww2) and sudden there were added restrictions on russian jews and those from soviet satellites. 

how many jews were murdered by local populations when they were first liberated? unknown, but one reason jews were rounded up and detained in old concentration camps for years, were to protect 'em from enlightened westerners looking to do 'em harm. 

oh, and 'course the unscop report determined that the brits had illegal restricted jewish immigration to british mandate land, detaining those displaced european jews in the infamous cyprus camps. 'course the brits were dealing with a problem created by the rest o' europe 'cause nobody in europe wanted to accommodate displaced jews.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?476538-1/the-million

western history textbooks is a bit fuzzy on a few o' the details regarding western tolerance o' jews after ww2. 

HA! Good Fun!

[uuuhhii]

7 hours ago, Sarex said:

People don't understand that Jews were not tolerated in the western world before WW2.

uk sending all jewish population to a middle eastern colony doesn't feel like height of tolerance and acceptance

intentionally or subconsciously they sure did mess with their colony as much as they can

[Elerond]

8 hours ago, Lexx said:

Funny, we learned about the whole WW2 thing a lot in school, but I never really grasped the background of it all until I've read Umberto Eco's Prague Cemetery. At first the book highly confused me, so I started reading up on it more until it finally really clicked for me, that jews weren't just hated by Germany back then. It goes so damn far back in time. In hindsight it is obvious, but it really wasn't in my mind like that. Literally everyone hated jews and they were commonly used as scapegoats. Chances are high that if germany wouldn't have started with the death camps, someone else for sure would have.

Sometimes I wonder how people have missed the almost two thousand years worth of propaganda that jews killed God's son and our savior Jesus and they should be punished for that crime.

[Lexx]

I grew up in an atheist country and never cared much for Jesus.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lexx

[ShadySands]

Israel is going hard on Gigi Hadid. 

[Elerond]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

people (many/most) don't understand that ww2 hardly resulted in instant tolerance o' jews from the western world. is a common misunderstanding that europeans and americans welcomed displaced jews after ww2 and that just ain't the case. it took america a couple years to abolish anti-jewish immigration laws which had been in place since the late 1800s and remained throughout ww2, and the US were far more accommodating than most o' europe.... and then the cold war ramped up (almost immediate after ww2) and sudden there were added restrictions on russian jews and those from soviet satellites. 

how many jews were murdered by local populations when they were first liberated? unknown, but one reason jews were rounded up and detained in old concentration camps for years, were to protect 'em from enlightened westerners looking to do 'em harm. 

oh, and 'course the unscop report determined that the brits had illegal restricted jewish immigration to british mandate land, detaining those displaced european jews in the infamous cyprus camps. 'course the brits were dealing with a problem created by the rest o' europe 'cause nobody in europe wanted to accommodate displaced jews.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?476538-1/the-million

western history textbooks is a bit fuzzy on a few o' the details regarding western tolerance o' jews after ww2. 

HA! Good Fun!

And tolerance of Jews is not only fuzzy thing in western history textbooks. They forgot to tell that many people that were liberated from Nazi concentration camps, like for example gays were just moved to german prisons to serve their sentences that they received during Nazi regime and they were not acknowledge or compensated as victims of mass murder until 1985 when they got mentioned in speech by German president. Romani people didn't get much better treatment by their 'liberators'. And quite rarely you hear mentioned things like that State of Croatia annihilated  about 25000 romani people which were virtually every romani that lived in Croatia. And after the war The courts in the Federal Republic of Germany determined that romani weren't persecuted because of their race but because their crimes, even though it is estimated Nazis killed 250k-500k romani (although no one knows for sure because no one was interested to know how many romani there were Europe before the war and how many were left after the war). Also romani who were forcibly sterilized or illegally deported from the Germany were left without compensation. West Germany acknowledge that Romani were racially persecuted in 1965. And in 1982 Helmut Schmidt acknowledged that  romani were also victims of genocide.

I have still not seen history textbook that directly tells that Europeans, even allied countries continued to persecute victims of Nazis long after the liberated them from the Nazis.

[Malcador]

4 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Israel is going hard on Gigi Hadid. 

They sure freak out over nothing much here

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

uk sending all jewish population to a middle eastern colony doesn't feel like height of tolerance and acceptance

intentionally or subconsciously they sure did mess with their colony as much as they can

It's genius really. Get rid of the people you don't want, get them and another bunch of people you don't like to kill each other, and all after those two groups got on relatively well for 1500 years.

Then 80 years later you can pat yourself on the back and proclaim how tolerant and progressive you were and how you can't understand why people don't like you, must be hatred of your freedoms not that you gave land where people were already living to another bunch of people. You can also say how Jews and Muslims have always hated each other, so it was all inevitable and Jews needed a homeland to escape Muslim persecution.

[Hurlshort]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

I grew up in an atheist country and never cared much for Jesus.

This comment seemed odd to me, so I looked up the top irreligious countries. In my mind, there really isn't any country that is atheist. There are countries that actively crack down on religion, sure, but are there countries that just lack a belief in some sort of religion?

Wikipedia results are murky, so I'll have to do more research. Also I'm pretty sure Lexx must be Swedish with that statement, but he could also be Vietnamese.

[uuuhhii]

19 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

This comment seemed odd to me, so I looked up the top irreligious countries. In my mind, there really isn't any country that is atheist. There are countries that actively crack down on religion, sure, but are there countries that just lack a belief in some sort of religion?

Wikipedia results are murky, so I'll have to do more research. Also I'm pretty sure Lexx must be Swedish with that statement, but he could also be Vietnamese.

nation doesn't have a state religion are often consider atheist

not nation without religion

[Hurlshort]

6 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

nation doesn't have a state religion are often consider atheist

not nation without religion

Surely that would be a poor use of the word. Atheism is a very specific rejection of beliefs. It's a fairly hard-line stance. Technically the US doesn't have a state religion. 

[uuuhhii]

5 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

Surely that would be a poor use of the word. Atheism is a very specific rejection of beliefs. It's a fairly hard-line stance. Technically the US doesn't have a state religion. 

usa are considered as atheist by many despite how powerful conservative christian are

and obviously considered atheist by conservative christian

standard change over the centuries

usa today would be considered radically atheist by victorian standard

atheist of many part of the world doesn't consider themself rejected any religion

the thought of organized religion just rarely even come up unless they are mentioned on the news

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, Hurlshort said:

This comment seemed odd to me, so I looked up the top irreligious countries. In my mind, there really isn't any country that is atheist. There are countries that actively crack down on religion, sure, but are there countries that just lack a belief in some sort of religion?

Wikipedia results are murky, so I'll have to do more research. Also I'm pretty sure Lexx must be Swedish with that statement, but he could also be Vietnamese.

I wrote in hyperbole a bit, but generally east germany wasn't that big on religion. Obviously we had churches and stuff, but in our area that wasn't really something the people did. Also had no religious propaganda in school nor family, so basically we were growing up quite sheltered from it. Everything I know about Jesus & Friends is what I've learned about it on my own when I was much older.

/Edit: Here's some numbers: Today, approx 70% of former west germany are members of a church, while in former east germany it is barely 24%. Quite the difference.

/Edit2: One more fun fact. When I started reading the quran out of curiosity, I was initially blown away with how similar it is to the bible. Like, jeez, it's as if someone copied someone elses homework and just changed it up a little bit.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lexx

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Hurlshort said:

Surely that would be a poor use of the word. Atheism is a very specific rejection of beliefs. It's a fairly hard-line stance. Technically the US doesn't have a state religion. 

I thought the holy dollar was the state religion of the US

Australia is horrible when it comes to religion. The church is very powerful and influential in society, which is why the systemic child rape in the churches managed to go on for almost a century, as they had both the politicians and the judiciary doing their bidding when covering up or actively ignoring it (one of those things everyone knew about, but you were going to burn in hell if you spoke out against "your betters"). 30% if the population today is catholic or some variation of it (about half the population is consider themselves followers of the christian faith). That was a culture shock when you come from Scandinavia. Denmark is something like 50% atheist, 20% agnostic and 30% believing in some god (lumping the Abrahamic religions together, protestant, islam, judaism, catholicism etc. as @Lexx pointed out, not too dissimilar to each other at times).

[Gromnir]

10 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

uk sending all jewish population to a middle eastern colony doesn't feel like height of tolerance and acceptance

intentionally or subconsciously they sure did mess with their colony as much as they can

hmmm. 

the uk didn't want jews in the british mandate lands o' the middle east. the jews and arabs in the british mandate were doing a bang up job o' creating chaos for the brits, so the brit solution were to delay dealing with the issue. temp uk solution: keep as many jews as possible from relocating to the british mandate lands. after ww2, jews would escape detention camps in europe and then the brits would capture 'em, usually at sea, and lock 'em up in the dozen or so pow-style detention camps on cyprus. very humanitarian. 'course the uk wanted jews in the uk even less than they wanted 'em in the british mandate lands.  

US were hardly angelic bystanders. truman tried to pressure the uk into opening up the british mandate to displaced jews and the british suggested that if truman wanted to save the jews, then the US should take 'em, but truman couldn't get Congress to accept the relaxation o' nativist policies from previous administrations until 47, and there were no positive jewish immigration laws passed until 48. 

immediate following the war, truman sent a guy named harrison to inspect the detention camps where jews were being kept in europe. after reading the harrison report, truman contacts gen. eisenhower in august o' 45 and orders him to improve the camp situation.

"As matters now stand, we appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them. They are in concentration camps in large numbers under our military guard instead of S.S. troops. One is led to wonder whether the German people, seeing this, are not supposing that we are following or at least condoning Nazi policy."

eisenhower took the matter serious and personal, which led to dramatic improvement in living conditions for displaced jews who nevertheless remained, for years, in US supervised concentration camps following ww2. the situation for jews in camps managed by other powers were no better.

again, 48 is when the US final opened their doors in a meaningful way to displaced jews. 'course almost simultaneous the US state department began adding limits on any and all immigrants whose country o' origin were soviet.

is not so much forgotten history as it is history which were rare if ever taught, so there weren't a chance to forget that jews and other peoples  detained, abused and murdered by the germans continued to suffer the tender mercies o' enlightened europeans and americans for years following ww2.

regardless, the uk worked hard to prevent jews from reaching their middle eastern colony. brits delayed doing anything meaningful for as long as possible, which is the most common political solution to difficult problems even if it is almost always a fail. 

edit: so @Elerondobserves how curious it is that two thousand years o' retributive christian antisemitism is glossed over by so many. in response, one poster responds that he were raised in an atheist country... germany. germany? 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-statement-on-israel-and-gaza-a6c397f09a30

Seems like usual platitudes, but figure it might be an interesting share.

[ShadySands]

Ja Rule Says Drake, DJ Khaled Not Obligated to Speak On Israel ... - TMZ https://amp.tmz.com/2023/10/11/ja-rule-drake-dj-khaled-dj-vlad-israel-hamas/

I know everyone was curious on Ja Rule's take

[ShadySands]

For reference

because that might be an obscure reference for many even though it kind of explains it in the article 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by ShadySands

[Malcador]

Each day I ask myself, what would Ja think.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Lexx said:

I wrote in hyperbole a bit, but generally east germany wasn't that big on religion. Obviously we had churches and stuff, but in our area that wasn't really something the people did. Also had no religious propaganda in school nor family, so basically we were growing up quite sheltered from it. Everything I know about Jesus & Friends is what I've learned about it on my own when I was much older.

/Edit: Here's some numbers: Today, approx 70% of former west germany are members of a church, while in former east germany it is barely 24%. Quite the difference.

/Edit2: One more fun fact. When I started reading the quran out of curiosity, I was initially blown away with how similar it is to the bible. Like, jeez, it's as if someone copied someone elses homework and just changed it up a little bit.

I didnt realize  you grew  in East  Germany. Where did  you  live and  how  old were you when the Berlin  Wall came down. What was life like,  do you remember anything significant  or worth sharing?

Sorry  for all  the questions but I am  always interested in lived  experiences  around things  like  the  Cold War

 

[Sarex]

4 hours ago, ShadySands said:

For reference

because that might be an obscure reference for many even though it kind of explains it in the article

Back when he was actually funny.

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/israel-says-it-will-ban-un-staff-after-secretary-generals-comments

"Speaking at a UN general debate on the Middle East in New York, Guterres created fury when he said: “It is important to … recognise the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.”

He also said no injustice to the Palestinians could justify the appalling attacks by Hamas.

Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, said on army radio: “Due to his remarks we will refuse to issue visas to UN representatives. We have already refused a visa for undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs, Martin Griffiths. The time has come to teach them a lesson.”

 

[uuuhhii]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/israel-says-it-will-ban-un-staff-after-secretary-generals-comments

"Speaking at a UN general debate on the Middle East in New York, Guterres created fury when he said: “It is important to … recognise the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.”

He also said no injustice to the Palestinians could justify the appalling attacks by Hamas.

Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, said on army radio: “Due to his remarks we will refuse to issue visas to UN representatives. We have already refused a visa for undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs, Martin Griffiths. The time has come to teach them a lesson.”

 

what is the lesson here

 

refuse a few visa are not exactly as painful as whiping of leather belt

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, uuuhhii said:

what is the lesson here

That jews dont want to hear the truth and will become butthurt at the slightest disagreement with their views.

[Malcador]

Was just an amusing story and an overreaction in my eyes