Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Then she got into trouble and the message changed and it became " wars are wrong, we believe in peace and all parties need to return to the negotiation table " which is the safe thing to say and obvious but meaningless because what would be the expected  comment to make is for Russia to end the invasion. Then there would be immediate peace

More realistic statement, to be honest, it will have to end with negotiation. Russia is the successor to the USSR, and when it come to making decisions to help the ANC, wasn't coming from Kiev.  Also, suppose it matters how Ukraine has supported RSA or not.

Ah well, no one's team ever commits a foul.

[kanisatha]

16 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-atacms-biden-zelenskyy-long-range-missile-rcna116876

Some ATACMS at last.  

But this is exactly why even though I've been happy that Biden has supported Ukraine I still criticize him. What's the point of having waited so long to do this if you were going to do it anyway? If Biden had done this months ago, even a year ago, it would have made a huge difference to Ukraine's war effort. And he kept doing this exact same thing with weapon system after system ... again and again. Why???!!! Just so maddening.

[Malcador]

Will be interesting to read about this in, hm, maybe 2 years after the war ends. Maybe people were concerned about escalation, Ukraine's not worth a war with Russia and US.  Doubt Ukrainians are as dumb as people online who want them to strike Russian cities with them.  Then again they did kill Dugina for some reason, sort of not worth the effort.

Wonder what next the Ukrainians will cry for though.  Maybe an Arleigh Burke or three.

[Keyrock]

50 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

But this is exactly why even though I've been happy that Biden has supported Ukraine I still criticize him. What's the point of having waited so long to do this if you were going to do it anyway? If Biden had done this months ago, even a year ago, it would have made a huge difference to Ukraine's war effort. And he kept doing this exact same thing with weapon system after system ... again and again. Why???!!! Just so maddening.

What's a lot more maddening to me is that we're spending more money on Ukraine rather than Maui. I'm sure that 1 time $700 the victims got plus the blanket (can't forget about the blanket!) covers all their needs after they lost everything. I get it, many people in Ukraine lost everything too, but, call me crazy, maybe the Biden administration should prioritize its own people. They've "accidentally" found more money in their couch cushions for Ukraine than it would take to rebuild every single home that burned down in Lahaina. At this point it's pretty clear Biden & Co. don't give a flying **** about Americans. To be clear, they don't give a flying **** about Ukrainians either, but wealthy and powerful people stand to gain a lot from sending money over there while wealthy and powerful people don't gain anything from sending money to Maui. In fact, they stand to gain from NOT helping the people of Maui and so not helped they will continue to be.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Keyrock

[pmp10]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:00 PM, Zoraptor said:

Doubt strikes on infrastructure mean much in that regard. If anything it's more leverage- see NATO switching to destroying Yugoslav infrastructure in 1999, which ended up working when destroying military targets failed.

There's been plenty of back room diplomacy going on without being (much) publicised anyway and that's unlikely to stop. Though how much either side actually wants a solution at this point is a very open question.

That leverage works only after Ukraine itself is forced into talks.
So far they have not been made to admit that offensive has failed and soon the bombing campaign will be a perfect excuse to refuse any overtures.

That Russia was not willing to give diplomacy a shot in October is also a bad sign that they might be fine with a forever-war.

[Zoraptor]

Leverage works to force people into talks in the first place as well, not just to concede more when in them. At least part of the problem is that even talking would be a major concession for Ukraine, since it would be a tacit admission things aren't going well. It's unlikely they'll ever admit that the offensive failed publicly as that could hit morale in a similar manner. The public part of the admission doesn't matter too much, if they admit it privately.

(October was never going to be a good time to get Russia negotiating, same as April was not going to be good to get Ukraine negotiating. Their expectation was that energy prices would sap European support, and a cold winter would sap internal Ukrainian support. Similarly, if Ukraine expected to be in Simferopol by July there was no point negotiating in April)

[Gfted1]

7 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Why???!!!

Because we were waiting for PrSM to come online: Decision To Give ATACMS To Ukraine Is About To Become Easier (thedrive.com)

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, Keyrock said:

What's a lot more maddening to me is that we're spending more money on Ukraine rather than Maui. I'm sure that 1 time $700 the victims got plus the blanket (can't forget about the blanket!) covers all their needs after they lost everything. I get it, many people in Ukraine lost everything too, but, call me crazy, maybe the Biden administration should prioritize its own people. They've "accidentally" found more money in their couch cushions for Ukraine than it would take to rebuild every single home that burned down in Lahaina. At this point it's pretty clear Biden & Co. don't give a flying **** about Americans. To be clear, they don't give a flying **** about Ukrainians either, but wealthy and powerful people stand to gain a lot from sending money over there while wealthy and powerful people don't gain anything from sending money to Maui. In fact, they stand to gain from NOT helping the people of Maui and so not helped they will continue to be.

Im not convinced by that general point or argument  that the US  "should be spending on problem  x  and not problem y " because its a slippery slope that can lead to almost pointless debates 

For example you could argue " why is the US spending any money on support for NATO or the UN, why isnt all that money going towards border security, education or the FEMA fund  " 

The US like all countries has a federal yearly budget and different departments would get money allocated to those institutions. But end of the day it has numerous international responsibilities that are reliant on the US funding them and this benefits the US as well around its global interests in most cases

But I dont think the US should spend any money on any country or government that is hostile towards it or for example aligned to Russia which has become very anti-US since the invasion 

[Keyrock]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

The US like all countries has a federal yearly budget and different departments would get money allocated to those institutions.

Yes and Murica's budget is all types of ****ed up which is why our infrastructure is crumbling, the mental health crisis is out of control and getting worse by the day, and we "don't have enough money" to help our own people in need in times of disaster. But don't worry, the government will buy up the land of the victims (Hawaii's governor has talked openly about it). I'm sure they'll pay the victims a TOTALLY FAIR AND JUST price once they're properly destitute, starving, and desperate. But hey, they're going to build a memorial (and likely work with Black Rock, Vanguard, State Street or some shell company there of to build several resorts and a golf courses). I'm sure those homeless victims will feel nothing but pride and admiration when they look at said monument.

Murica spends more money on its military budget than the next 10 nations COMBINED. They're talking about raising the defense budget again next year, significantly. Meanwhile, The Pentagon has failed 5 audits in a row and can't account for some ludicrous percentage like 70% or something (I'm too lazy to look it up) of its assets. The Pentagon and Biden Administration has magically found billions of dollars due to "clerical errors" for Ukraine. This has happened several times. What could possibly be a better use of our taxpayer dollars than to continue funneling it to an already ludicrously bloated department that can't keep track of its assets. CERTAINLY better to allocate more money to them rather than addressing out giant and constantly growing list of critical problems at home.

Yeah, we DEFINITELY have our priorities straight.

Side note: I'm sure it's nigh impossible to get an accurate number from Moscow on how much money Russia has spent on this war, but it would not surprise me whatsoever if Murica had outspent the Russians on this war. 

[Gfted1]

See! Thats why we need UHC, UBI, UFE and UFH! Maybe we can lower our defense budget to the next 7 nations combined, and hit the fatcats for the rest of the tab. 

[kanisatha]

22 hours ago, Keyrock said:

What's a lot more maddening to me is that we're spending more money on Ukraine rather than Maui. I'm sure that 1 time $700 the victims got plus the blanket (can't forget about the blanket!) covers all their needs after they lost everything. I get it, many people in Ukraine lost everything too, but, call me crazy, maybe the Biden administration should prioritize its own people. They've "accidentally" found more money in their couch cushions for Ukraine than it would take to rebuild every single home that burned down in Lahaina. At this point it's pretty clear Biden & Co. don't give a flying **** about Americans. To be clear, they don't give a flying **** about Ukrainians either, but wealthy and powerful people stand to gain a lot from sending money over there while wealthy and powerful people don't gain anything from sending money to Maui. In fact, they stand to gain from NOT helping the people of Maui and so not helped they will continue to be.

Hey I completely agree that the Administration dropped the ball on the crisis in Hawaii ... and also disasters in Ohio and Florida. But I would disagree that it is an either/or thing.

[kanisatha]

15 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Because we were waiting for PrSM to come online: Decision To Give ATACMS To Ukraine Is About To Become Easier (thedrive.com)

I'm sure this will be given as a rationale, but I sure don't buy it. Not for even a second. After all, it certainly doesn't then explain the president doing exactly this same song and dance with other systems time and again: "no we won't," "no we won't," "no we won't," "no we won't," "okay fine, we will."

[Keyrock]

9 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Hey I completely agree that the Administration dropped the ball on the crisis in Hawaii ... and also disasters in Ohio and Florida. But I would disagree that it is an either/or thing.

It sure seems like an either or when the Biden Administration keep sending money to Ukraine and doing jack diddly squat to help its own people. If it's not an either or then why aren't they doing both? You can write it's not an either or thing all you want, but in practice it's an either or thing. The record speaks for itself.

Contrary to popular belief, Murica doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. Whenever it comes to military spending it seems like we have unlimited money to spend but when it comes to fixing problems at home, um, well, you know, we have a budget to stick to.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Keyrock

[Malcador]

https://www.thestar.com/politics/jewish-group-demands-apology-after-mps-honoured-man-who-fought-for-nazis/article_68ebec0b-bb75-5ed5-ba36-8d3516fd34a7.html

This government really enjoys egg in their face

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, Keyrock said:

It sure seems like an either or when the Biden Administration keep sending money to Ukraine and doing jack diddly squat to help its own people. If it's not an either or then why aren't they doing both? You can write it's not an either or thing all you want, but in practice it's an either or thing. The record speaks for itself.

Contrary to popular belief, Murica doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. Whenever it comes to military spending it seems like we have unlimited money to spend but when it comes to fixing problems at home, um, well, you know, we have a budget to stick to.

But... but... he's fighting for international market shares and unrestricted access to US products. It's all for benefit of domestic shareholders!

No, it's not a better reason than nationalism

[Mamoulian War]

Official UA statement on handfull of cotton in Sevastopol during the last few days.

 

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/09/25/7421307/

[kanisatha]

16 hours ago, Keyrock said:

It sure seems like an either or when the Biden Administration keep sending money to Ukraine and doing jack diddly squat to help its own people. If it's not an either or then why aren't they doing both?

That's because they *chose* to not do anything to help in Hawaii. But that choice has nothing to do with their choices on Ukraine. These choices are independent of each other is what I'm saying, whereas you are linking the choices together. There is no evidence to support that they chose to not do anything in Hawaii only *because* they chose to help Ukraine, which is what you are claiming and the part that I am disagreeing with. So, two separate, independent, and unconnected policy choices being made by the president:

1) Help Ukraine (I strongly agree with this policy decision choice)

2) Don't do squat for the people of Maui (I strongly disagree with this policy decision choice)

Two separate issues and decisions. No either/or.

[Keyrock]

3 hours ago, kanisatha said:

There is no evidence to support that they chose to not do anything in Hawaii only *because* they chose to help Ukraine, which is what you are claiming and the part that I am disagreeing with. So, two separate, independent, and unconnected policy choices being made by the president:

Fair enough. I'm not privy enough to the inner workings of the annual budget to argue against that. If the administration does have the available funds to help the victims in Lahaina and they choose not to, probably figuring people will forget about it in a few weeks, like they did East Palestine, that paints them in an even worse light.

I'm all for sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine, I'm against sending any more weapons.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Keyrock

[Mamoulian War]

On 9/15/2023 at 1:41 PM, Malcador said:

Apparently they liberated Andriivka and encircled and wiped out a brigade. Well so says the Ukrainian MoD, for what that's worth. Liberation of the village seems to be correct, at least.

 

 

Russians kind of confirmed the reported “anihilation” at Andriivka.

 

[xzar_monty]

I'd never heard of "Zerg rushes" before. Interesting how that kind of terminology spreads. Would chemical weapons sometimes qualify as Horrid Wilting?

[BruceVC]

20 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I'd never heard of "Zerg rushes" before. Interesting how that kind of terminology spreads. Would chemical weapons sometimes qualify as Horrid Wilting?

Monty are you telling a joke? I have never known you to tell a joke. I like it 

[Malcador]

Also, the Waffen SS veteran invited to the House is going to cost the Speaker his job here, idiot couldn't get a staffer to hit Wikipedia.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Malcador

[xzar_monty]

And in other news, the Kadyrov family shines again, as Ramzan's son is filmed beating up a fellow in custody. The Mouth of Putin, i.e. Peskov, has bravely refused to comment on the matter before any questions were even asked.

It's interesting that there has been some vocal outrage among Russians who find it unseemly indeed that the Kadyrov family is allowed to break the law like this, apparently without repercussions. Contrast this with the almost complete lack of Russian outrage over the country's attempt to destroy Ukraine as a nation and Ukrainians as living human beings.

[pmp10]

An interesting look behind the diplomatic scenes:
A list of reforms US expects Ukraine to implement for continued assistance.

If true, it's a pretty predictable list of changes regarding corruption, rule of law and business interests. 
The leak is likely a form of Ukrainian push-back, during the recent US visit Zelensky failed to get the reception or assistance he was hoping for. 

[xzar_monty]

5 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

If true, it's a pretty predictable list of changes regarding corruption, rule of law and business interests.

Indeed, there's plenty of stuff that Ukraine seriously needs to improve upon in order to be regarded as a more, shall we say, westernized country.

Also, once the war is over, there's going to be an awful lot of problems to solve and questions to deal with; Zelenskyi knows this perfectly well and it appears that the work is in progress already. But it's going to be really tough, and it's going to take a long time. (One thing, by the way, that heads may well roll for, is the utterly failed early defense of Mariupol. It had been prepared, but nothing happened in the event, and someone's got to take the blame for that.)

As for Donetsk, Luhansk and (in particular) Crimea, I don't think anyone knows what's going to happen even if the war ends tomorrow.