Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part VII

[majestic]

11 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

is the puzzle not terrible by owlcat standard or just not terrible

Wrath of the Righteous sets the gold standard for terrible puzzles, even for Owlcat.

[Phomopsis Cane]

55 minutes ago, majestic said:

Wrath of the Righteous sets the gold standard for terrible puzzles, even for Owlcat.

Agreed, though Kingmaker does take some beating in terms of terrible puzzling!

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, majestic said:

Could probably still work if you just stacked all the enchantments bonuses in the world, but not sure.

having done just that, stacking azata attribute and mind effecting boosts as well as all the enchantment/illusion gear in the game w/o resorting to expanded arsenal quirks, am less ambivalent than @majesticabout viability. am assuming azata kineticists remain kinda op. is more than a couple skald/bard builds we used for every hard and unfair boss battle, but regardless, an enchanter/illusionist is more than viable on any difficulty even without the expanded arsenal schtick. aside: is not to0 much undead in the game, but we nevertheless take the undead in addition to the functional requisite fey bloodline. sepentine might make more sense, but undead is typical our choice. (edit: you do not need play as a sorcerer caster to make an op azata enchanter work, but am highly recommending at least one level o' crossblood sorc if you choose to go wizard or whatnot.)

furthermore, am gonna suggest that folks reflexive using unfair as a yardstick for mythic powha is misleading. @majestic is no doubt keen aware that the most difficult unfair content is early game and before you acquire mythic path specific powhaz, particularly ambush encounters pre mythic. insofar as late game, any mythic path has at least a few op builds.  angle and lich (and only merged spell book angel and lich is arguable broken op) is not making the most challenging early content any easier, and by late game the angel and lich relative advantages decrease substantially. late game aeon and demon has a few builds we would place on par with merged spellbook angel or lich.

the main advantage o' lich and angel for unfair runs is they do not require you to follow an uncompromising build path or discover every bit o' build-specific loot needed to achieve requisite ab or dcs. angel and lich has spells and abilities which ignore sr or obviate the chore o' generating improbable dcs. play angel and you don't need to consider adding a court poet companion to buff your caster, or adding the madness domain to sosiel. merged spellbook angel and lich make the game far more simple, and there is a mid portion o' the game where they is undeniably op.  even so, every mythic provides possibility o' op builds capable o' roll-stomping unfair late game, and no mythic makes early game easier. 

as an aside, and for any who hasn't played the game in awhile,  am suspecting a few folks is gonna be surprised by a recentish playful darkness change--like ulbrig, playful darkness is now equipped with a swarmbane clasp.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we did go with a merged spell book angel build for the inevitable excess dlc  but less 'cause it were so powerful (although it certainly was a powerful choice) but 'cause encounters were simplified by having a functional immortal character able to one-button wipe the screen o' opponents w/o any o' the rock-paper-scissor considerations which is ordinary the cornerstone o' overcoming difficult d&d/pathfinder opponents. 

Edited February 1 by Gromnir

[Sven_]

On 2/1/2024 at 12:51 PM, majestic said:

Wrath of the Righteous sets the gold standard for terrible puzzles, even for Owlcat.

Tbh, a lot of their content feels like there's barely any iteration or polish done in general. Stuff that sounds good on paper (rotating the camera in the demon city) seems locked early. Even if all the fed ex /errand job quests there eventually have you traversing that city, witness repeat loading bars and get you to rotating the camera over and over. (That was also the point where I finally called it quits. Bought the game upon release, took THREE timeouts to return to the save and continue. 80+ hours overall. But the grind didn't seem worth it anymore).

It's a "more is more" approach all over the shop. Including the same, same combat, of which there's a ton of it -- I always like to joke that if Owlcat had made Baldur's Gate, the empty wilderness would be no more. Instead, you couldn't walk five feet before walking into a nother copypaste mob to murderhobo. As much as I like the better parts of their (Pathfinder) games: To me they're like the CRPG factory line producers: Churning out huge ass campaigns longer than any Baldur's Gates combined, DLC and Enhanced at an unheard of rate likely for reason. Maybe it's part of their business model though: keep on pumping, or go bust.

I swear if they ever went with a "less is more approach", they'd be in for a masterpiece. And it makes me squirm that games said to err on the "shorter" side are immediately flagged for "sale candidate" by some, whereas devs going with the bloat approach never get any flak for it.

 

Edited May 5 by Sven_

[InsaneCommander]

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

 

I wonder what iteration of Playful Darkness will show up to **** up the party?

[xzar_monty]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:19 PM, Sven_ said:

It's a "more is more" approach all over the shop. Including the same, same combat, of which there's a ton of it -- I always like to joke that if Owlcat had made Baldur's Gate, the empty wilderness would be no more. Instead, you couldn't walk five feet before walking into a nother copypaste mob to murderhobo.

I've been thinking about this in purely mathematical terms. For instance, if the amount of combat in P:K and WotR was cut by half, I'm certain the game would be twice as good. If the amount of combat was dropped to 25% of what it is now, I think the game might well be four times as good as it is now (assuming they really thought about what to leave in). But if the combat was cut by 90%, I don't think the game would be ten times as good as it is now.

[InsaneCommander]

11 new archetypes.

 

[Sven_]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:29 PM, xzar_monty said:

But if the combat was cut by 90%, I don't think the game would be ten times as good as it is now.

Given that the combat (and toying with builds for that) is like 90% of their games, that'd indeed take things a tad far.  It's never only about the sheer amount of combat though. Occasionally, they can even do decent set pieces -- the defense at Oleg's trading post in Kingmaker always immediately springs to mind. But still they'd rather prefer to **** mobs all over their maps, it seems. That's also much cheaper. Meh. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

11 new archetypes.

 

Razmirin Darkness confirmed.

42 minutes ago, Sven_ said:

Given that the combat (and toying with builds for that) is like 90% of their games, that'd indeed take things a tad far.  It's never only about the sheer amount of combat though. Occasionally, they can even do decent set pieces -- the defense at Oleg's trading post in Kingmaker always immediately springs to mind. But still they'd rather prefer to **** mobs all over their maps, it seems. That's also much cheaper. Meh. 

When I think about the encounters that really stick out for me it's how silly some of the bosses are kitted out and how I defeated them with spreadsheets and cheese rather than tactical challenges. After that it's getting killed by a mob whose archers gun down the back line and make me reload or red, and finally it's the small number of encounters that made me think and play tactically... which seems to go away when the party gets more spreadsheet stuff and cheesey strats.

I think BG3 really knocked WotR on it's ass for me, because the Harpy fight alone is more interesting than the vast majority of non-random fights in WotR and too boot does a substantially better job at non-combat gameplay.

[Sven_]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I think BG3 really knocked WotR on it's ass for me, because the Harpy fight alone is more interesting than the vast majority of non-random fights in WotR and too boot does a substantially better job at non-combat gameplay.

The harpies illustrate the difference between the two of them in another way too:

You encounter them exactly once (I did anyway.) It's wholly optional. Not even encountered somewhere along the main path through the map, but the periphery. Plus, they still recorded even vocals for their "Luring song" ability, seamlessly blending in and out of the soundtrack when it is activated/deactivated. That's another bunch of money spent on stuff some people may never see... Any other project would have guaranteed you'd encounter them. Say, by making them a non-optional gatekeeper kind of boss fight you need to get past to progress.

That said, it's a bit harsh to compare BG3 in that way. There's not a single CRPG developer who has that kinda budget and can blow it like that. However, Owlcat for me still take the cake when it comes to stretching their campaigns a tad far. That you can at least attempt a quality over quantity approach even on a budget was to be seen in Solasta. That's a largely combat focused game -- yet even in some dungeons, there's but a handful of encounters at best. As argued though, I suspect this may actually be Owlcat's business model. There aren't that many companies pumping out releases at that pace, in particular not that big ones (even discounting all the DLC...). They've released 3 big games in the same amount of time that Electronic Arts was pondering what at all to do with their RPG division aka Bioware next.  

Edited May 14 by Sven_

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

6 hours ago, Sven_ said:

The harpies illustrate the difference between the two of them in another way too:

You encounter them exactly once (I did anyway.) It's wholly optional. Not even encountered somewhere along the main path through the map, but the periphery. Plus, they still recorded even vocals for their "Luring song" ability, seamlessly blending in and out of the soundtrack when it is activated/deactivated. That's another bunch of money spent on stuff some people may never see... Any other project would have guaranteed you'd encounter them. Say, by making them a non-optional gatekeeper kind of boss fight you need to get past to progress.

That's all true, but even if Harpies were reused several times I still think that fight would stand out favorably. It provides an alternative (optional) objective of protecting the tiefling kid, makes good use of terrain to show what a danger flying enemies can be, and even provides a powerful use of the Silence spell if you've got it prepped. It's honest to god one of the best low-level encounters I've seen in a RPG.

6 hours ago, Sven_ said:

That said, it's a bit harsh to compare BG3 in that way.

Oh no doubt that any straight comparison of BG3 and WotR is flawed, as it had 50x the budget and 2-3x the development time to bake. But all the same I can't help but think that for a game that is incredibly combat focused as WotR is that it just doesn't do it particularly well, I can't really think of too many battles I found challenging tactically in either Owlfinder so much as I found myself managing a spreadsheet of buffs. I agree with the idea that WotR would be significantly better with cutting down combat by half, but I don't know if Owlcat can really deliver on consistently interesting encounters to even make the remaining half worthwhile.

6 hours ago, Sven_ said:

As argued though, I suspect this may actually be Owlcat's business model. There aren't that many companies pumping out releases at that pace, in particular not that big ones (even discounting all the DLC...). They've released 3 big games in the same amount of time that Electronic Arts was pondering what at all to do with their RPG division aka Bioware next.  

I wouldn't be surprised if it is, as you said there's a sort of stigma to shorter/smaller games and an unearned prestige to larger games. Certainly being able to put out a beeg epic game and then 3 or so pieces of DLC every 2-3 years seems to be going well for Owlcat.

Uhhh, man I spent 5 minutes googling and it's been almost a decade since the last Dragon Age. No idea what the **** is going on over there, but I have very little confidence in it being good.

Edited May 15 by PK htiw klaw eriF

[Sven_]

2 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it is, as you said there's a sort of stigma to shorter/smaller games and an unearned prestige to larger games.

Which is rather unfortunate, as:
 

Quote

Personally, I would like to see us make shorter games (e.g. 30-40 hours instead of 60-80) where we cut the worst of our content and spend time iterating on the best. But there is pressure from the market itself (or at least perceived pressure) to make longer games so as to justify the game's sticker price with its "value" as measured in dollars spent per hour of gameplay. And I'm not sure if people understand that when you're on a budget, there's a zero-sum tradeoff between gameplay length and gameplay polish. 

 

RPG Codex Interview: Eric Fenstermaker on Pillars of Eternity :: rpg codex > doesn't scale to your level


Almost every C/RPG outside of BG3 is on a budget in some way or another. And with RPGs in general, I feel its the worst: Also due to historical reasons, a game said to be on the shorter side risks being flagged as "sales candidate" immediately. A game shorter than ~20 hours is a complete no-go for most, no matter the quality. Whereas supposedly epics are being applauded for offering "value for money". As if being able to spend days of your life on a game was inherently value itself -- even classic 16bit JRPGs were notorious for stretching their playing time with random encounters (right up to the Final Fantasys).

Gotta love the Codex review of WOTR, btw. The reviewer acknowledges all of that filler. Actually, it argues the game even doubles down on it compared to Kingmaker. But rather than burning the devs at least some for it, the review ends on this note regardless: "Hey, this game has a lot of filler routinely wasting your time. But still, if ya like that kind of thing..."  The original Fallout would have a real hard time were it to release nowadays. For ALL the wrong reasons. 

 

Edited May 15 by Sven_

[Proficiency]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:51 PM, majestic said:

Wrath of the Righteous sets the gold standard for terrible puzzles

Whenever a puzzle comes up I just google it. Like, why do they even bother to put it up. No lore no nothing, it's esoteric. 

[Sarex]

11 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

When I think about the encounters that really stick out for me it's how silly some of the bosses are kitted out and how I defeated them with spreadsheets and cheese rather than tactical challenges. After that it's getting killed by a mob whose archers gun down the back line and make me reload or red, and finally it's the small number of encounters that made me think and play tactically... which seems to go away when the party gets more spreadsheet stuff and cheesey strats.

I think BG3 really knocked WotR on it's ass for me, because the Harpy fight alone is more interesting than the vast majority of non-random fights in WotR and too boot does a substantially better job at non-combat gameplay.

My only fear for BG3, apart from the Larian aroma, is that the spreadsheets look a tad too basic. Tbf I have yet to play the game myself.

For Owlcat games I fully agree they should cut them down by 1/3 and focus on encounters being more engaging. That being said, for such long games, if nothing else you always had the next level to look forward to and to keep you going.

Edited May 15 by Sarex

[Sven_]

3 hours ago, Sarex said:

My only fear for BG3, apart from the Larian aroma, is that the spreadsheets look a tad too basic. 

Well, it's D&D 5e. Tbf, 2e (BG1+2) wasn't particularly complex either. A lot of level ups boiled down to pushing a button, seeing your THAC0 come down and getting more hitpoints. That said, combat itself in BG3 is on the easier side. In parts because Larian have fiddled with D&D action economy. They've also removed the limit how many magic items a character can attune -- and those are plentiful and have The Power™.

Still, in particular early on, combat is oft but one possible way of many. Depending on your character, various hostile NPCs may be neutral just by your pick in character race, etc. And even a low INT barbarian gets the opportunity to just intimidate foes out of engaging in combat every once in a while.

Edited May 15 by Sven_

[Sven_]

This just in: For anybody hoping that Owlcat would slow down and reverse their "quantity over quality" stance -- well, bad luck. Owlcat may have released three epics (plus DLC) within barely half a decade.  Each of those making any BG game look like a dinner snack. But clearly that was not enough. Seems like they aim for the Guinness World records next.  

 

• company comprises about 500 individuals.

• they are currently developing 4 games with 4 separate teams.

• development of two of these games started just recently.

• games are being created using Unity and Unreal Engine.

• company's primary focus lies in creating RPGs with rich narratives and complex mechanics.

• one game being an original IP.

• next games likely will feature full VO and better cutscenes
   

   

Edited May 15 by Sven_

[uuuhhii]

2 hours ago, Sven_ said:

This just in: For anybody hoping that Owlcat would slow down and reverse their "quantity over quality" stance -- well, bad luck. Owlcat may have released three epics (plus DLC) within barely half a decade.  Each of those making any BG game look like a dinner snack. But clearly that was not enough. Seems like they aim for the Guinness World records next.  

 

• company comprises about 500 individuals.

• they are currently developing 4 games with 4 separate teams.

• development of two of these games started just recently.

• games are being created using Unity and Unreal Engine.

• company's primary focus lies in creating RPGs with rich narratives and complex mechanics.

• one game being an original IP.

• next games likely will feature full VO and better cutscenes
   

   

 

hope this means only one of those game would be inflicted with horrible puzzle

but that seem optimistic

[Sven_]

I think that's crazy growth, btw. Even if a good deal of those 500 people are externals.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But Owlcat so far had successful games -- including Rogue Trader more recent. But those are still far from the Original Sin 2 scale. Right? Even the likes of CD Projekt only really exploded some after Witcher 3 (250 people working on that, peak). Owlcat meanwhile seem to go "all-in" before a more natural growth would "allow" them to do so. 

It's fair to assume that one or two of those games aim to be more on the BG3 scale, also in terms of production values. There may be a more action-based game in there as well (similar to inXile with Clockwork Revolution or Obsidian with Avowed). E.g. the days of developing mostly isometric Infinity Engine-likes may be over.

Owlcat so far are a good example of picking popular IPs that hadn't been much catered to yet. Proving just as well that it's never a "type of game" or specific set of features making or breaking a game, in particular considering the complexity of their games. But the overall experience pitched. On a grander scale, Larian had done the same with BG3 before. They deliberately didn't sell this as a CRPG. But a (D&D) experience where nothing would be off-limits and anything possible (including having sex with a bear). Owlcat meanwhile are selling the only available bigger Pathfinder Games™ around, and more recent the only beefy Rogue Trader Game™ as well. The flipside of that is having never developed an IP of their own (which they aim to). Who knows, maybe they're in for LOTR next and explode the same way as Larian.  

Edited May 16 by Sven_

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, Sven_ said:

This just in: For anybody hoping that Owlcat would slow down and reverse their "quantity over quality" stance -- well, bad luck. Owlcat may have released three epics (plus DLC) within barely half a decade.  Each of those making any BG game look like a dinner snack. But clearly that was not enough. Seems like they aim for the Guinness World records next.  

 

• company comprises about 500 individuals.

• they are currently developing 4 games with 4 separate teams.

• development of two of these games started just recently.

• games are being created using Unity and Unreal Engine.

• company's primary focus lies in creating RPGs with rich narratives and complex mechanics.

• one game being an original IP.

• next games likely will feature full VO and better cutscenes
   

Having started out with fewer than 20 people, growth to 500 is crazy. And my guess is that most of those people are contractors and/or low quality people.

Given how shoddily they have treated the backers of WotR who paid for physical items in the KS campaign, I am now rather disillusioned with Owlcat. It's why I have removed Rogue Trader from my Steam wishlist, effectively boycotting that game. They will need to win me back for the future.

[xzar_monty]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:01 PM, Sven_ said:

Occasionally, they can even do decent set pieces -- the defense at Oleg's trading post in Kingmaker always immediately springs to mind.

I agree it was good.

What annoys me the most is how blatantly they sometimes cheat, with monsters teleporting in mid combat and all that. There's no way you can prepare for that kind of stuff, and there's also practically no way the game mechanics would allow that.

However, I did indeed enjoy both games, despite all their many flaws.

@kanisatha, what's that shoddiness you mentioned?

Edited May 16 by xzar_monty

[kanisatha]

People who paid for physical items during the KS campaign are still waiting for their orders to be fulfilled. For months and months Owlcat kept issuing monthly promises that the items are "on the way" and that their "small size" was a big part of why they were having trouble getting those shipments done. Then, the monthly promises became perfunctory, literally the same message cut and pasted into a new monthly announcement. And now they have just simply stopped sending out messages altogether after many backers, including some superbackers, called them out and harshly criticized them.

Instead of working on four new games, which itself is silly for a mid-level studio, they should drop one of those projects so they can provide basic, decent customer support for their KS backers.

[xzar_monty]

Oh dear. That is very bad indeed.

I haven't been able to see myself purchasing another Owlcat game after WotR, and it's even harder to see myself doing that now.

[InsaneCommander]

New Archetypes in A Dance of Masks DLC: Part 1

Monk — Drunken Master

Spoiler

The first and most widely anticipated archetype on our list is, of course, the drunk monk, aka the magnificent Drunken Master.
In our RPG, monks are often used as “tanks” due to their powerful abilities at low levels. The Drunken Master archetype allows ki point abilities to be used more frequently, and also provides specific bonuses based on the monk’s level of intoxication. Incredibly, this monk regenerates ki points by drinking alcoholic beverages, and the higher the monk’s level, the more ki points they can accumulate. At higher levels, the Drunken Master gains the ability to produce alcohol, further enhancing the monk’s combat abilities.
We think that the Commander who chooses this archetype will be Seelah’s best friend and the life of the party! Have fun, but remember — drinking is bad for your wealth!

Slayer — Bloodseeker

Spoiler

The Bloodseeker archetype was invented and developed by our lead game designer, Andrey Sverkunov. He noticed that the slayer archetypes in the game were all very similar, and wanted to design something different. This gave him the idea for an archetype inspired by the anime series Vampire Hunter D.
Although the Bloodseeker is not a true vampire, the cursed bloodline they have inherited endows them with near-vampiric powers. The Bloodseeker does not possess slayer talents. Instead, they gain access to a wide range of new abilities that can be expended using blood points. These points are accumulated by performing critical bite attacks, or by sucking the blood from nearby enemies while in raven form.
Create panic among the enemy ranks by changing shape and attacking from the air! Feast on your foes, and let their blood flow like a river for the glory of the Commander!

Bard — Chelaxian Diva

Spoiler

This archetype offers new performance abilities which allow bards to take on a more aggressive role. The masterful voice of the Chelaxian Diva strengthens allies and bursts enemy eardrums — sometimes simultaneously! At the height of their career, this archetype can learn to replicate the famous banshee scream, turning the bodies of their enemies into withered husks of their former selves.
Amaze your allies and terrify your enemies with your incredible singing skills!

Skald — Inciter

Spoiler

This skald archetype uses insults and taunts to provoke the enemy into abandoning their defenses and attacking recklessly... then finishes them off with a dagger from behind. The Inciter gains access to a sneak attack, which can be enhanced through a rogue’s advanced abilities. At higher levels, this archetype can also learn to channel these abilities using inspired rage!
Now you can be sure that the Commander and their companions will always have the last laugh!

Fighter — Titan Fighter

Spoiler

The Titan Fighter can wield a two-handed weapon in one hand — need we say more? This archetype has no difficulty using two huge weapons at once to deliver powerful blows and pulverize foes.
Crush your enemies on your way to glory!

Inquisitor — Living Grimoire

Spoiler

The Living Grimoire is a new interpretation of Paizo’s original archetype. The Inquisitor has always been something between a fighter and a spellcaster, and we wanted to incentivize players to focus on both of these aspects. This Inquisitor archetype possesses a unique weapon — a large sacred tome which can be used to instruct demons on the path to truth. The Living Grimoire can enchant this holy book like a battle priest, and can amplify the strength of their abilities by using both magical and non-magical attacks in battle. This archetype’s final ability is so powerful, it can kill almost any opponent instantly. In the right hands, this sacred tome can be a formidable weapon — so only give it to those you trust!

 

Edited May 17 by InsaneCommander

[Hawke64]

The last update on the physical goods was on 21 March 2024.

Quote

We continue our updates regarding Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Collector's Editions. Last time, we shared photos of the packages waiting to be shipped, and also covered the preparation of the paperwork.

At the moment, we are still preparing the documents to make sure that the physical rewards will reach all our backers without any problems. Since the parcels will be shipped to a wide variety of countries, the preparation and delivery process may take longer. We also continue to prepare customs documents, which is a lengthy and labor-intensive process. It is as such because of the varying legislative requirements for delivery in different countries.

Despite all the logistical issues we ran into, we stay committed to getting your rewards to you, and we'll continue to share any news about our progress.

We'll be sure to be back with more news next month. Thank you for your support and trust — we continue to improve for the sake of our players.

I suppose, it is understandable that physical items are more challenging to deliver, but it has been two years.

Still, I probably will get the Masks DLC and Owlcat's next game few months post-release (unless backing them).