Ukraine Conflict - Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

36 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

well this was my initial point of you putting people into your box of wackos. Also not all people who didn\t want to get wax thought it was some space aliens conspiracy but just didn't want state to order them to get vaxed by untested vaccine. But you already showed into which box you put those people in so I guess my point stands. Don't want to get vaxxed? - flat earther

Every iteration of this thread has been about putting people into boxes, the good box or the russia box. That it took an observation of who was organizing the pro-Russian thing in Austria to set you off on putting people in boxes is pretty damn funny.

[Chilloutman]

7 minutes ago, Space KP, Baby said:

Every iteration of this thread has been about putting people into boxes, the good box or the russia box. That it took an observation of who was organizing the pro-Russian thing in Austria to set you off on putting people in boxes is pretty damn funny.

It irritates me no matter the subject at hand. although I try to not slip into that mindset myself. As for the boxes you mentioned.. dunno if its single subject there really is no need for the box huh?

[Bartimaeus]

42 minutes ago, SChin said:

While I have no thoughts or opinions to voice here on any of the topics mentioned on this page, I will say, I very much enjoy popping in here every few weeks to read the information and opinions posted in this thread.

Thanks everyone  

Even when it's just me being a complete bastard? Hey, thanks!

22 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

It irritates me no matter the subject at hand. although I try to not slip into that mindset myself. As for the boxes you mentioned.. dunno if its single subject there really is no need for the box huh?

Stereotypes...and boxes, and generalizations...are objectively the wrong way to approach people. Every person is an individual informed (or not) by the circumstances of their life. The thing is, for simple conversation, they can be pretty useful for getting an idea across quickly. You know, probably don't use them when you're engaged in a serious discussion (or if you're talking to Gromnir), but for trying to inform some people who likely aren't terribly knowledgeable about a particular subject (such as the current political climate of Austria?) in a fast and easy manner, it makes a lot of sense. Getting mad about somebody quickly noting down an alarming trend of a few particular groups actually being composed of the same people...seems like one of those situations that says a bit about the person getting offended more than anything else.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Zoraptor]

19 minutes ago, Sarex said:

While it will not stop the transmission it will reduce the time window in which it could be transmitted. Either way % there is a lesser probability to transmit if you are vaccinated for a certain time period. I will not go in to how effective the vaccines turned out to be or if any of the decisions made were good, but at the point of mass panic that was happening they needed to take some actions.

It reducing symptoms/ effects is why the infectivity period is shorter (essentially, less severe symptoms --> less time coughing etc and faster recovery). The vaccines don't have much effectiveness at stopping mild infections, but then mild infections are pretty much just the sniffles. They are very effective at stopping death and hospitalisation though which is important for a properly functioning health system and so you don't get the early pandemic scenes per Italy, New York or Britain of oldies being left to die at home because the system simply couldn't cope. That also saves a lot of money, a lot of money.

There is plenty to dislike about the vaccines/ general response to covid, vaccine efficacy isn't one of them though.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

24 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

It irritates me no matter the subject at hand. although I try to not slip into that mindset myself. As for the boxes you mentioned.. dunno if its single subject there really is no need for the box huh?

If that was true then why did it take you a year to go off on it, and to something that was a tangent? I've seen Zor get called a Russian apologist for doing his usual pedantic aktuallllly thing and never seen you speak up about that putting him into a box. Really it sounds like you're more offended by a perceived slight against yourself than you are putting people into boxes.

[Zoraptor]

There is no box that can hold me.

Suggesting to eastern Euros that their views are informed by Russia will always risk a strong emotional response. Far more so than suggesting to me that I'm a Russian shill. 19/20 that would elicit the equivalent of the rolled eyes emoji, just far more verbose on the occasions I don't have my impulse control dialed up. And the 20th time it's the rolled eye emoji with an equally long winded equivalent of "you disingenuous knob" tacked on. I can see chilloutman's point, far too often people's genuine beliefs are dismissed as actually being someone else's- Russian, or Chinese or whatever- because that's way easier and safer for the person making the accusation than trying to address those beliefs. I don't for a second think it was intended that way this time though, it was clearly just shorthand because a more accurate explanation would make a long post even longer.

(Gotta say, pity oby or LoF aren't around still, their opinions would really get some people's knickers knotted. Funnily enough I did defend them against accusations of being Russian shills. Because it was obvious they were just baseline trolling westlings with bad impulse control rather than believing or being paid for what they were saying)

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

Girkin was Oby.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Malcador

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

We are all oby.

[xzar_monty]

This comment is just to wonder if it's nasty to speculate about the possible correlation between @Chilloutman's moniker and the content of what he has recently posted.

[Lexx]

7 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

I never heard anyone who was against covid vaxx who waas stopping anyone else to do so.

Funny, I remember at least one doctor in germany who secretly gave sodium chloride to the people instead of the vaccine, because he didn't want anyone to take it. I'm actually almost sure it was more, including some some drug stores, but I'm too lazy to look up more details about it now.

[Gorth]

I suspect this whole conversation is threatening to become a covid thread...

Just to not stay on topic, down here it was bad in both Melbourne and Sydney, with groups of people creating picket lines blocking access to vaccination locations and physically attacking people on the street and in public transport, tearing off their face masks because they were the visible symbol of systemic oppression and collectively aiding the Illuminati or whatever. Also, making sure they met up thousands at a time to ensure maximum spread of the virus while violently denying people their right to keep themselves safe from the spread. Sadly way too many of those "anti-vaxxers" survived the epidemic (ironically thanks to everybody else but their own effort) and can now possibly pass on their genes

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I suspect this whole conversation is threatening to become a covid thread...

It's not entirely unrelated, in the sense that at least here in the north of Europe a curious overlap was noticed on the net at the start of the war in Ukraine: suspiciously many antivax posters suddenly turned pro-Putin. This was first noticed by some who followed the antivax rhetoric and then by the posters themselves, after which there was an effort to make it less obvious.

This was a fairly clear indication that at least some antivax rhetoric was fuelled by Russia in the spirit of "Let's disturb 'the West' in any way we possibly can", as per its modus operandi.

[Sarex]

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Suggesting to eastern Euros that their views are informed by Russia will always risk a strong emotional response.

Could not care less. Though we have nothing against Russia. It would be the same thing for the West. We learned long ago that might makes right and that global politics are a hard bitch (Though we tend to remember). We do have a sore spot for the British, but that is more along the line of them acting like a bully but always hiding behind their much bigger friend and it's closer to waiting for someone to bloody their nose and put them in their place.

This is all not counting our local friendly neighbors, that is another story entirely.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Sarex

[BruceVC]

You can absolutely be anti-vax\anti-corona vaccines  and opposed to Russia invasion of Ukraine, the 2 are not mutually exclusive 

I have always supported vaccines but the global pushback to Corona vaccines was based on several things like the right to say no. Im fine with that because 80-90% of people who died in hospitals or had the most severe sickness were the unvaccinated so everyone must accept the consequences of their decisions 

We didnt see major cases of variants escaping the vaccine efficacy so vaccinated  people like me were fine. But end of the day because Corona had a relatively low mortality rate of 5-7%, unlike the black plague or Ebola which is 40-60%, people who were unvaccinated didn't feel threatened or were asymptomatic. Of course the risk is also spending time with the high risk people over 65 and being asymptomatic but again thats a personal choice people made. 

But you cant force people to take vaccines for Corona, as prudent as it is it didnt work, in most countries,  and just encouraged the whole  " globohomo\deep state\big pharma  is trying to control us " conspiracy theorists and that made more people object to it 

I do think vaccines should be mandatory in old age homes for staff 

 

[xzar_monty]

22 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Could not care less. Though we have nothing against Russia. It would be the same thing for the West. We learned long ago that might makes right and that global politics are a hard bitch

It would be interesting to know the extent to which this is generalizable like this, i.e. which percentage of Serbians constitute this "we" that you use. Insofar as the "we" means the nation as a political entity, the use is probably justifiable.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

(Though we tend to remember).

Nah,  dont be so hard on yourself. Serbs never bring up the past 

[Gorth]

6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Nah,  dont be so hard on yourself. Serbs never bring up the past 

Tell that to my Serbian friend in Melbourne at your own peril. I'm 100% she's waiting for Dan Andrews (the PM) to die, so she can dance on his grave and vandalize his tombstone (for ordering lock downs and social distancing, which made her feel like a caged animal). Mind you, she *is* perpetually angry unless you are in her friend circle (which i consider myself lucky enough to be, so I don't need to watch my back)

Edit: I.e. uncompromising and unforgiving towards those who "wrong" her and undying loyalty and commitment to those she consider friends (which are people you can count on a single hand)

[Sarex]

 

53 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

It would be interesting to know the extent to which this is generalizable like this, i.e. which percentage of Serbians constitute this "we" that you use. Insofar as the "we" means the nation as a political entity, the use is probably justifiable.

For Russia probably the majority, ranging from fully supporting Russia to not caring about the conflict. There are of course those who support Ukraine and are against Russia, but I think they are the minority. For the West/US it could be a different ratio.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Sarex

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Tell that to my Serbian friend in Melbourne at your own peril. I'm 100% she's waiting for Dan Andrews (the PM) to die, so she can dance on his grave and vandalize his tombstone (for ordering lock downs and social distancing, which made her feel like a caged animal). Mind you, she *is* perpetually angry unless you are in her friend circle (which i consider myself lucky enough to be, so I don't need to watch my back)

 

She must have been  in a fantastic mood during the Novak banning and deportation 

[Gorth]

Just now, BruceVC said:

 

She must have been  in a fantastic mood during the Novak banning and deportation 

Funny thing is... she was a bit undecided on that one, because she hated Novaks guts (did I mention she's very angry?)

[xzar_monty]

2 minutes ago, Sarex said:

For Russia probably the majority, ranging from fully supporting Russia to not caring about the conflict. There are of course those who support Ukraine and are against Russia, but I think they are the minority. For the West/US it could be different ratio.

One potential difficulty is that those who are against Russia might not want to be so obvious or vocal about it, whereas with the West/US the question is much more neutral and safe. But it wouldn't be a good idea to speculate on this basis, other than saying that this phenomenon probably exists.

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Funny thing is... she was a bit undecided on that one, because she hated Novaks guts (did I mention she's very angry?)

Off topic, but this reminded me of David Foster Wallace's superb essays on tennis and the fact that there's an indelible blemish on them caused by his blatantly obvious personal dislike of Agassi. I can't bring my head around to why he felt something as petty as that was worth writing down. In general, I find it extremely difficult to figure out why people get so worked up about athletes; why on earth would someone bother to hate Novak, or C. Ronaldo or whoever... (I'm writing from the premise that she doesn't know Novak personally, which would be a different thing.)

Edited February 8, 2023 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

One potential difficulty is that those who are against Russia might not want to be so obvious or vocal about it, whereas with the West/US the question is much more neutral and safe. But it wouldn't be a good idea to speculate on this basis, other than saying that this phenomenon probably exists.

Nah, we dont mind speculation on this forum. We do it all the time 

And its definitely true within Russia you cant be honest or vocal around anti-war sentiment. Here is some polling data from Serbia, its reveals most Serbs are supportive of Russia and think Putin is someone to be admired. But I dont know how accurate it is because its a SA website?

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-serbia-is-shifting-closer-to-russia-heres-why-192472

 

[majestic]

9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Suggesting to eastern Euros that their views are informed by Russia will always risk a strong emotional response.

I'm merely quoting your post because it is a good way to start. Since bad faith reading of what I write has become normal recently (even at work, for whatever reason), I feel like I have to state this. O tempora, o mores.

Anyway, to quote Captain Malfoy:

To restate that again, I made a simple observation about Austrian voters of a party whose current party line is basically being anti-vax and Pro-Russian. It was generalized for sure, but it applies to no other group than the people I was talking about. Oh, and by the way, I think Czech consider themselves to be a part of Central Europe. Me, personally? Anything that was on the other side of the iron fence is Eastern Europe.  

Spoiler

There's a joke in the above paragraph, I wonder how many can find it.

A party directly financed by Russian money. They picked up some 15% voters with that program, which is most of our anti-vax population. The others still go to the dedicated anti-vax party or vote for the greens, because they're all organic vegan  lifestyle weirdos whose little Elias, Noah and Leah aren't getting any bad chemicals injected. Funnily enough, the latter group is on average amongst the most educated people in the nation.

These voters were also avid consumers of the German Russia Today branch, who flooded YouTube with videos about the dangers of the COVID-19 vaccines. Their talking points were, by far and large, about how they are untested, could be DNA altering and ineffectual (which, curiously enough, have 'some' overlap with the sentiments stated here on the forum, and can all three be considered factually wrong). On a good day they had a veneer of scientific legitimacy by inviting immunologists like Sucharit Bhakdi - someone who should actually know better. Probably does. I'll be gracious and say that he's not just in it for the fame and money but because of his experiences with the dengue vaccinations, which really had adverse effects down the line wtih infections by strains being much worse for vaccinated people (one of his claims was that the COVID-19 vaccines could cause cytokine storms).

The same TV station implored Russians to get vaccinated. By an untested, DNA altering and ineffectual (sorry, could not resist) vector vaccine.

12 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

There is plenty to dislike about the vaccines/ general response to covid, vaccine efficacy isn't one of them though.

Indeed, we (Yuro-Peons) should be holding van der Leyen and the EU responsible for wasting enormous amounts of taxpayer money on the overpriced Pfizer vaccine, with equally good, if not better, alternatives being around for cheaper, or even at cost. But hey, Biontech is a German company, there was absoultely nothing untoward happening there. Nothing to see here, let's discuss some more about how the largest clinical vaccination trials in history lead to the distribution of 'untested' vaccines.

As always, the real conspiracies are too mundane, and too out in the open. It's not fun when everyone knows about them. Can't be the special snowflake that has everything figured out then.  

Oh, and one last, final jab: I would never equate anti-vaxxers with Flat Urfers. Believing in a Flat Urf is hilarious, and I sometimes watch their videos to amuse myself (there is one of a guy doing 'high IQ research' on a train, stating directly that the Earth has to be stationary because no one can feel the speed at which it moves through space, and the water in this glas there is completely flat, it's just too funny). Sure, they could act as a potential gateway into other conspiracy theories, but they're mostly harmless - they might burn some books or annoy people with their preaching on the street, but that's about it.

People who propagate medical quackery on the other hand are harmless at best ("if it doesn't help, at least it won't hurt to try", right?), and dangerous to deadly at worst.

Oh, final question, if the Earth isn't flat and stationary, why does NASA use a flat and stationary Earth model in almost all of their calculations? Hmm? Can't answer that one, can you? /High IQ research.

Edited February 8, 2023 by majestic

[Gorth]

Look on the bright side. We have an Austrian and a Serb in the same thread and no weapons drawn over whether Franz Ferdinand had it coming. Maybe there is hope for humanity yet (given enough time)?