About the Final duel and the "Sith Lords"

[Tyrell]

In KOTOR the final duel between Revan and Malak didn't have that great epic feel that it should have. It is the fight between the former Dark Lord and the current Dark Lord. Master vs Apprentice.

 

I know I'm drawing too much from the movies, but take the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel in EP3. It is going to be 12 min long. Longer then any current SW saber fight and it is a really emotional fight.

 

In KOTOR I didn't feel that type of emotion. It was to....cordinated if you ask me. I got hit Malak a few times, he runs and goes to a Jedi body, takes it's energy, comes back and fights some more, I hit him a few more times, and the process repeats itself. That was gay on Malak's part. Speaking of Malak, the Sith Lord(s) in KOTOR 2 should seem really powerful.

 

Malak in KOTOR didn't have that same ru-ra as say....Vader, Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious etc.....those sith's powers came from within themselves whereas Malak's power can from the Star Forge. Again that is shown in the final duel. As soon as he gets weak, he runs like a bitch to go draw power from fallen Jedi. And is that suppose to make Malak seem powerful? Hell NO! That makes him seem weak and to....dependent. Like my brother and I always said....take the Star Forge away and just wander how powerful Malak would be? Something to thing about.

 

So when you create the Sith Lords in KOTOR 2, make them seem powerful and not having to rely on certain things to draw energy from. And with the final Saber duel (There has to be one, it isn't SW without one), make sure it is great and epic in scale. Make it cover many locations like the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs Maul duel and the Luke vs Vader duel in ESB. Don't keep it confined to just one room. Let there be more dialog spoken.

 

And the music....Oh my god the music for the final duel in KOTOR was sorry (In my mind). All it was....was Malak's theme speeded up 2x. Listening to it gives me a headache. Again I'm drawing from aspects of the movie. Look at the music in TPM, the Duel of the Fates. That is today one of the greates pieces that John Williams has ever wrote. It goes great for the duel and it will be re-used in EP3 but it would be a darker version adding in parts of Anakin's Theme as well as the Imperial March. Look at the duel music for the Luke vs Vader duel in ROTJ. Very VERY emotional. It is son vs father. So it is of course going to be pretty emotional and the music fits in quite well.

 

With the final duel music in KOTOR 2, make it something to remeber that goes well with the duel and not just some theme from the game speeded up....thats just lazyness....

[kopolee13]

I agree 100% with everything you just said.

 

Especially, with the music you need to have great music.

[Drakron]

I disagree 100% with everything you said.

 

First you missed the point of Malak character, second this is a game and I f***ING HATE THEY GOD DAMN HAVE TO PULL SOME CRAP TO EXPAND FIGHTS.

 

Having enemies that CHEAT is bad, I dislike Malak fight because he cheats and BioWare decided to mimic movies with a 1 on 1 fight forgeting CRPGs are a TEAM based game.

[guns1inger]

I agree with what you said about making the Lord of the Sith actually worthy of his title UNLIKE Malak, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the final battle to span over different locations. Given the restrictions of the game engine, the best they could do is have the guy you're fighting run away and you have to chase him like Malak did in the Leviathan in KOTOR, and lets face it, chasing him around felt tedious and unecessary.

[Renegade]

In KOTOR the final duel between Revan and Malak didn't have that great epic feel that it should have. It is the fight between the former Dark Lord and the current Dark Lord. Master vs Apprentice.

 

I know I'm drawing too much from the movies, but take the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel in EP3. It is going to be 12 min long. Longer then any current SW saber fight and it is a really emotional fight.

 

In KOTOR I didn't feel that type of emotion. It was to....cordinated if you ask me. I got hit Malak a few times, he runs and goes to a Jedi body, takes it's energy, comes back and fights some more, I hit him a few more times, and the process repeats itself. That was gay on Malak's part. Speaking of Malak, the Sith Lord(s) in KOTOR 2 should seem really powerful.

 

Malak in KOTOR didn't have that same ru-ra as say....Vader, Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious etc.....those sith's powers came from within themselves whereas Malak's power can from the Star Forge. Again that is shown in the final duel. As soon as he gets weak, he runs like a bitch to go draw power from fallen Jedi. And is that suppose to make Malak seem powerful? Hell NO! That makes him seem weak and to....dependent. Like my brother and I always said....take the Star Forge away and just wander how powerful Malak would be? Something to thing about.

 

So when you create the Sith Lords in KOTOR 2, make them seem powerful and not having to rely on certain things to draw energy from. And with the final Saber duel (There has to be one, it isn't SW without one), make sure it is great and epic in scale. Make it cover many locations like the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs Maul duel and the Luke vs Vader duel in ESB. Don't keep it confined to just one room. Let there be more dialog spoken.

 

And the music....Oh my god the music for the final duel in KOTOR was sorry (In my mind). All it was....was Malak's theme speeded up 2x. Listening to it gives me a headache. Again I'm drawing from aspects of the movie. Look at the music in TPM, the Duel of the Fates. That is today one of the greates pieces that John Williams has ever wrote. It goes great for the duel and it will be re-used in EP3 but it would be a darker version adding in parts of Anakin's Theme as well as the Imperial March. Look at the duel music for the Luke vs Vader duel in ROTJ. Very VERY emotional. It is son vs father. So it is of course going to be pretty emotional and the music fits in quite well.

 

With the final duel music in KOTOR 2, make it something to remeber that goes well with the duel and not just some theme from the game speeded up....thats just lazyness....

I'm not sure how much I can agree with you. Number one I think the developers purposely made Malak weak and dependent upon the Star Forge. It's a shift in position. At first you're the weak Jedi and he's supposed to be the Sith Lord commanding his great ship to blow up planets from afar. And then you're the truly great master of the force and he is reduced to a soul sucking wimp. I think it builds up to you claiming your place as leader of the Jedi's. The music however could've been better I agree. As far as spanning several places I'm not so sure about that. Not just because of the engine but hell because of the load times as well. Just make him really powerful and make the ending good so that I can truly feel like I've accomplished something.

 

-Samori

[Tyrell]

For once some people actually agree with me on an issue.

 

Darth Malak just didn't seem.....opposing. He just seemed like some normal Jedi who found some great power and is using it to his advantage. That doesn't make him powerful, if anything it is the Rakata that is the powerful ones, not Malak.

 

When I defeated Malak, I didn't get that feeling of....completeness. Like the feeling I got when I defeated Desarn in Jedi Outcast. He just felt like another normal Sith Apprentice or Dark Jedi, except that it was a longer fight. I really liked the setting though, really liked that.

 

I got more completeness when I defeated Bastila just prior to fighting Malak.

 

The whole time Malak is always running from you. On the Leviathon he is running from you. On the Star Forge he is constantly running from you and relying on the Star Forge.

 

You don't see Vader doing this. You never read in the books/comics of Exar Kun doing this. If anything....it should be the OTHER way around.

 

Well, I'm about to go running now. See you all when I get back.

 

Also those 2 interviews I promised about KOTOR 2, they will be up and going this Friday just to let you know. In one interview there is ABUNDANT of new info leashed out about KOTOR 2. And I'm not just saying this cause it is my interview, but seriously, you guys is going to love these....

 

I must say these are the best interviews about KOTOR 2 so far....

[Ivan the Terrible]

Like my brother and I always said....take the Star Forge away and just wander how powerful Malak would be? Something to think about.

Why think about it? It's determined on the Leviathan; Malak couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

[Jhusges]

BioWare decided to mimic movies with a 1 on 1 fight forgeting CRPGs are a TEAM based game.

 

Sometimes the team thing didn't come off as quite appropriate to the situation. There's the Dark Jedi Master on the Unknown World, having trained extra hard just in case he got the chance to face me in combat, and before I can say something to my companions like "Leave this one to me", the poor guy gets thrown back by Jolee's Force Wave and ends up getting mauled by a dual-wielding Juhani.

[Darth Jebus]

Like my brother and I always said....take the Star Forge away and just wander how powerful Malak would be? Something to think about.

Why think about it? It's determined on the Leviathan; Malak couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

I have to admit, as much as I love KOTOR, after the Leviathan, all I really cared about was Bastila. Malak received such a whippin' from my character that I didn't even care about him anymore. Which, btw, I know that the code for Malak was prolly different than his code on the Star Forge, making him a bit easier on the Leviathan. I don't know. But then he runs from you on the Star Forge, too. Repeatedly. lol.

 

But as far as making the final duel more epic... i dunno. I'm all for making the end boss more challenging, but at the same time there's two things you have to consider:

 

1. This is not a movie.

 

2. One of the devs posting a response in one of the other threads (I think it was Frank?) brought up a good point. He said that all good games have their peaks and valleys. There are times when your character is kind of weak and your opponents are powerful. And then there are other times when your character is powerful and your enemies are struggling to keep up with you. By the time you reach the end of any game, the PC should be pretty darn strong, having survived countless obstacles and challenges. In this way, he or she should be a match for the end boss. And in the case of Malak, it made sense for him to fear you because he knew who you really were. This was done by design as evidenced by his lines.

 

"You are stronger than I first thought. Stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord. I didn't think that was possible."

 

"Part of me always regretted betraying you from afar. I knew that there would be those that would think I was to afraid to confront you face to face."

 

So despite all his faults, the folks over at BioWare did a good job with this character. They did, after all, justify his actions. And besides, ALL Sith are afraid.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

The whole time Malak is always running from you. On the Leviathon he is running from you. On the Star Forge he is constantly running from you and relying on the Star Forge.

 

You don't see Vader doing this.

That's because he was Malak was always lacking, in power and in skill. But I do understand the point you are trying to get across, and I agree...

[Drakron]

Well many people had to use "cheese" tactics against Malak becuase in some ways Malak is powerful enough to destroy characters that lack some force powers.

 

That is why "team" is important, problem is doing a effective support character and end up having to have a fight with a enemy and we have nothing that can hit him ...

[EnderAndrew]

I walked through Malak like he was nothing. I didn't use cheese tactics, or any Force Powers other than heal.

 

I had a powerful character, and good equipment. I double-wielded two powerful sabers, and wore powerful armor. With the right equipment, my strength was ungodly and I just smacked Malak around.

 

The FF series (while apples and oranges to CRPGs) often featured lengthy-difficult battles for the end boss. I rarely see this in CRPGs.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I walked through Malak like he was nothing. I didn't use cheese tactics, or any Force Powers other than heal.

 

I had a powerful character, and good equipment. I double-wielded two powerful sabers, and wore powerful armor. With the right equipment, my strength was ungodly and I just smacked Malak around.

 

The FF series (while apples and oranges to CRPGs) often featured lengthy-difficult battles for the end boss. I rarely see this in CRPGs.

For the record, he's much more difficult as a Scoundrel/Consular. You have to do a lot of running around to pick him off.

[EnderAndrew]

I don't doubt it. As I played through the game with a Soldier/Guardian with a heavy emphasis on combat feats, I never found any challenge in combat.

 

My girlfriend played as a Scoundrel/Consular and found a lot of challenge.

[Tyrell]

Like I said in my last reply, I just didn't have that urge to kill Malak. Yes, if I win I would be saving the galaxy or taking it over myself, but wasn't thinking about that. I was just thinking about defeating him so I can see what the ending would be like....

 

Like in Jedi Outcast when you are Kyle Katarn and you face Desarn(sp?) at the end. That is what I'm talking about. The music was top notch, even though it is the same music played in ROTJ when Luke faces Vader. And when fighting Desarn, I had that urge to completly destroy him. He was a great villian. He didn't rely on some other power source, he wasn't always on the run, to tell you the truth, it was him who the aggressor and me being the defender always in the run.

 

He didn't do the same s*** over again like Malak does (Flurry, Critical Hit, Force lightning and it repeats itself). It got boring fighting him.

[Dr. Lobotomy]

The fight with Malak wasn't epic for one reason: He doesn't fall down a totally unexplained bottomless shaft/Pit. Star War Bad guys have to end that way. Palpatine, Darth Maul, Boba Fett.

 

Oh and he talks too damn long for a guy who's just been on the recieving end of a series of flurries/critical strikes/Lightning Storms or whatever else you used to beat the snot out of him. Qui Gonn takes one measly stab to the torso and he's barely blurting out coherant whispers...

[EnderAndrew]

Good guys have an inherent special ability to live long enough to say a dramatic goodbye despite mortal wounds.

[GhostofAnakin]

To be honest, I thought Malak was plenty tough, in relation to the rest of the enemies you faced. Maybe compared to some other games, he wasn't tough at all, but in comparison to the other enemies you had to face in the game, he gave me the most challenge, mainly because he had (against me, anyways) the best ability to be immune from Force attacks.

 

I agree about the music thing. I think that's what the problem was. Too many cutscenes to interupt the flow of the final battle, and the music didn't "pump the adrenaline" like it did in the movies during duels. I think that with improved music and improved cutscene dialogue/action, the actual difficulty of combat could be overlooked.

 

What would have been cool is instead of Malak "running" from you and absorbing the energy from the dead Jedi, while you just stood there and basically watched him, the cutscene should have shown you and Malak dueling while he's talking, him backtracking slightly, but still parrying your thrusts, and then we see him push you back with a Force wave which buys him time to absorb the energy from the fallen Jedi.

 

I think the cutscenes hurt the final battle because it seemed like you'd be in real time combat, then a cutscene hits and both of you stop fighting, then you are back in combat, then another cutscene and you both stop fighting. It would have been a lot more visually appealing if the two flowed into one another, where as I stated above, when it goes to cutscene, it actually shows a lightsaber duel continuing, rather than him speaking and apparently you decide to listen to him instead of cut him down.

[EnderAndrew]

As bad as Episode 1 was, Duel of the Fates was the ultimate duel music.

 

John Williams will have to dig deep to top that for the Episode 3 duel. I wonder if he'll revisit the music and change it up a bit or do something completely different.

[Raven]

As bad as Episode 1 was, Duel of the Fates was the ultimate duel music.

 

John Williams will have to dig deep to top that for the Episode 3 duel. I wonder if he'll revisit the music and change it up a bit or do something completely different.

the only good things about episode 1 was the music and the ps1 games for it.

 

 

anyway, about the whole duel thing, why does it have to be a 1v1? the final fight should be a big battle i guess...

[NInjaPirate]

The dumbest thing about the final battle with Malak is the first time he used the dead Jedi. You are fighting and the all of a sudden you two are standing face to face talking like old friends, if it was real life you would just have put your saber throught him while he was talking to you.

[EnderAndrew]

I sat down and had some tea before killing him.

[Darth Jebus]

I sat down and had some tea before killing him.

LOL! :D

[sniggy]

For the record, he's much more difficult as a Scoundrel/Consular. You have to do a lot of running around to pick him off.

for the record: he's much easier with a "consular"

 

if you have force breach, you can just disable all trapped jedi. that way, you only have to fight malak once.

 

as to the rest of you:

 

yeah, malak was too easy.

yeah, tis a game, not the movies- malak the coward had tactics and lines that suited him

yeah, he seemed to much like an off-the-shelf bad guy.

 

my 2 pence

[EnderAndrew]

I want a villian that is so tough, I had to reload and fight him several times to beat him. I want strategy to be necessary.

 

I want strategy to be more important that stats.

 

I want the Boston Red Sox to win the World Series.