The All Things Political Topic - Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you

[Gromnir]

4 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Really expected it.

so instead insightful brevity as 'posed to a wall o' text, your response is to engage in a trite and vacuous post sans any real support for your position save that which amounts to the equivalent o' an eight-year old blowing a raspberry or uttering "nuh-uh." way to show your education and enlightenment, eh?

9 minutes ago, Lexx said:

You think those laws are only temporarily and will be shut down by the courts soon enough, but what happens when the day comes where they aren't?

kinda proving one o' our points with this bit. in the US we got Constitutional limits which is non existent in germany. is euros who depend on the fickle whims o' democracy when it comes to basic freedoms. even so, yeah, am suggesting that once bad laws is passed, as is inevitable in any representative or real democracy, then we need depend on the rule o' law or subsequent votes to fix. would have thought we were explaining basic social contract stuff but maybe the german education system were lacking in this regard?

crazy and bad laws that would never happen in germany? we can talk 'bout german abortion laws if you wish. you find the books in florida schools bizarre but until 2022 german doctors were subject to criminal penalties if they offered patients factual information about abortion.  what? germany sounds a bit like texas in point o' fact. yeah, germany looks to be headed in a positive direction, but tell us what would never happen while ignoring what has been happening for decades is either based on ignorance or the willful obtuse. so, which is it, ignorance or obtuse?

btw, am personal critical o' many aspects o' education in the various United States, which is another point you either missed or is purposeful misreading. the thing is there ain't a single identifiable US school system. ask @Hurlshort if you don't believe us but there is often incredible differences 'tween neighboring school systems w/i individual states much less 'tween and twixt states. is also a whole lotta private education which is often overlooked. even so am agreeing there is problems with US education which is why we suggested you misidentified the dolts. duh. 

is the ordinary and numerous dolts in florida who voted for desantis as 'posed to desantis being the dolt as your previous post suggested. desantis went to both yale for undergrad and harvard law and while is possible to be dim and graduate from those institutions, am thinking few persons with firing neurons would suggest desantis is slow witted or uneducated. sadly, desantis knows exact what he is doing, which makes worse... or maybe not. regardless, preach to the choir: too many school districts in florida and elsewhere do indeed fail at education. the dolts is most often the ordinary americans which is why we identified education as the long-term solution. again, duh... but also opposite o' your initial post.

we will also observe how whatever shortcomings exist in primary and secondary education in the US, presumed european advantages (such as they are) don't translate to the university level the way many expect. when we were undergrad, we had multiple job offers in europe and asia and it weren't as if we were special. graduate better than 3.0 with a stem degree from Cal, stanford or the like and in the late 80s were a license to print money in europe but particular asia. is our understanding not much has changed. is a whole lotta top universities lists out there, and most o' them ain't worth the paper they is written on, but having taught in europe for over a year at the university level, am having a difficult time seeing a marked superiority o' european post secondary students... or faculty.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/universities-producing-the-most-nobel-prize-winners.html

raise your hand if you got a degree from more than one o' those universities?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Sarex]

Seems that the Chinese spy balloon is in fact a weather controlling balloon.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Seems that the Chinese spy balloon is in fact a weather controlling balloon.

...

am thinking that would be bigger news than it being a spy balloon.

aside @Lexx

have mentioned this previous, but bears repeating that in our experience, too many europeans and kanadians, many o' whom has visited the US on holiday (maybe,) has rather specific notions o' americans and american fails. we spent many hours sitting across tables in pubs and classrooms from university students in barcelona, london and elsewhere listening to 'em discuss US politics and lamenting the scourges o' terrible US education and obesity. 

were almost surreal.

fast forward a couple decades and this board produces same conversations. still surreal.

Gromnir excepted 'course, does lexx experience on this board suggest americans in general is poor educated? yes or no?  it is obvious and no surprise there is more people from the US posting here than any other single nationality, but am not seeing some kinda clear educational or insight drop-off whenever a person with US citizenship posts. anybody think that without lexx the educational and intellectual depth o' the obsidian pool would go from 3 meters to 1? is lexx just speaking o' those other americans when he complains o' the US education system?  am knowing you think little o' us personal *snort* but given the numerous US posters hereabouts, does this place fail to match your expectations?  do the US folks hereabouts really seem bass ackwards and uneducated? really? 

this is a game message board o' ordinary people and not some kinda rand or mensa invite-only gathering space. am having a hard time seeing how the europeans or kanadians who frequent this message board could have such a low opinion o' the product o' US education.

HA! Good Fun!

[Elerond]

46 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

 

kinda proving one o' our points with this bit. in the US we got Constitutional limits which is non existent in germany.

 

 Germany's constitution puts lots of limits for government and making amendments to it needs very unified Germany and it forbids amendments to basics rights, which are defined in eternity clause to make them 'eternal'

German constitutional rights which can't be changed by democratic process

Quote

Article 1
[Human dignity – Human rights – Legally binding force of basic rights]

(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.

(2) The German people therefore acknowledge inviolable and inalienable human rights as the basis of every community, of peace and of justice in the world.

(3) The following basic rights shall bind the legislature, the executive and the judiciary as directly applicable law.

Article 2
[Personal freedoms]

(1) Every person shall have the right to free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral law.

(2) Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity. Freedom of the person shall be inviolable. These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law.

Article 3
[Equality before the law]

(1) All persons shall be equal before the law.

(2) Men and women shall have equal rights. The state shall promote the actual implementation of equal rights for women and men and take steps to eliminate disadvantages that now exist.

(3) No person shall be favoured or disfavoured because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith or religious or political opinions. No person shall be disfavoured because of disability.

Article 4
[Freedom of faith and conscience]

(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience and freedom to profess a religious or philosophical creed shall be inviolable.

(2) The undisturbed practice of religion shall be guaranteed.

(3) No person shall be compelled against his conscience to render military service involving the use of arms. Details shall be regulated by a federal law.

Article 5
[Freedom of expression, arts and sciences]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons and in the right to personal honour.

(3) Arts and sciences, research and teaching shall be free. The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution.

Article 6
[Marriage – Family – Children]

(1) Marriage and the family shall enjoy the special protection of the state.

(2) The care and upbringing of children is the natural right of parents and a duty primarily incumbent upon them. The state shall watch over them in the performance of this duty.

(3) Children may be separated from their families against the will of their parents or guardians only pursuant to a law and only if the parents or guardians fail in their duties or the children are otherwise in danger of serious neglect.

(4) Every mother shall be entitled to the protection and care of the community.

(5) Children born outside of marriage shall be provided by legislation with the same opportunities for physical and mental development and for their position in society as are enjoyed by those born within marriage.

Article 7
[School system]

(1) The entire school system shall be under the supervision of the state.

(2) Parents and guardians shall have the right to decide whether children shall receive religious instruction.

(3) Religious instruction shall form part of the regular curriculum in state schools, with the exception of non-denominational schools. Without prejudice to the state’s right of supervision, religious instruction shall be given in accordance with the tenets of the religious community concerned. Teachers may not be obliged against their will to give religious instruction.

(4) The right to establish private schools shall be guaranteed. Private schools that serve as alternatives to state schools shall require the approval of the state and shall be subject to the laws of the Länder. Such approval shall be given when private schools are not inferior to the state schools in terms of their educational aims, their facilities or the professional training of their teaching staff and when segregation of pupils according to the means of their parents will not be encouraged thereby. Approval shall be withheld if the economic and legal position of the teaching staff is not adequately assured.

(5) A private elementary school shall be approved only if the education authority finds that it serves a special educational interest or if, on the application of parents or guardians, it is to be established as a denominational or interdenominational school or as a school based on a particular philosophy and no state elementary school of that type exists in the municipality.

(6) Preparatory schools shall remain abolished.

Article 8
[Freedom of assembly]

(1) All Germans shall have the right to assemble peacefully and unarmed without prior notification or permission.

(2) In the case of outdoor assemblies, this right may be restricted by or pursuant to a law.

Article 9
[Freedom of association]

(1) All Germans shall have the right to form societies and other associations.

(2) Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding shall be prohibited.

(3) The right to form associations to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions shall be guaranteed to every individual and to every occupation or profession. Agreements that restrict or seek to impair this right shall be null and void; measures directed to this end shall be unlawful. Measures taken pursuant to Article 12a, to paragraphs (2) and (3) of Article 35, to paragraph (4) of Article 87a or to Article 91 may not be directed against industrial disputes engaged in by associations within the meaning of the first sentence of this paragraph in order to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions.

Article 10
[Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications]

(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.

(2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary agencies appointed by the legislature.

Article 11
[Freedom of movement]

(1) All Germans shall have the right to move freely throughout the federal territory.

(2) This right may be restricted only by or pursuant to a law, and only in cases in which the absence of adequate means of support would result in a particular burden for the community, or in which such restriction is necessary to avert an imminent danger to the existence or the free democratic basic order of the Federation or of a Land, to combat the danger of an epidemic, to respond to a grave accident or natural disaster, to protect young persons from serious neglect or to prevent crime.

Article 12
[Occupational freedom]

(1) All Germans shall have the right freely to choose their occupation or profession, their place of work and their place of training. The practice of an occupation or profession may be regulated by or pursuant to a law.

(2) No person may be required to perform work of a particular kind except within the framework of a traditional duty of community service that applies generally and equally to all.

(3) Forced labour may be imposed only on persons deprived of their liberty by the judgment of a court.

Article 12a
[Compulsory military and alternative civilian service]

(1) Men who have attained the age of eighteen may be required to serve in the Armed Forces, in the Federal Border Police, or in a civil defence organisation.

(2) Any person who, on grounds of conscience, refuses to render military service involving the use of arms may be required to perform alternative service. The duration of alternative service shall not exceed that of military service. Details shall be regulated by a law, which shall not interfere with the freedom to make a decision in accordance with the dictates of conscience and which shall also provide for the possibility of alternative service not connected with units of the Armed Forces or of the Federal Border Police.

(3) Persons liable to compulsory military service who are not called upon to render service pursuant to paragraph (1) or (2) of this Article may, when a state of defence is in effect, be assigned by or pursuant to a law to employment involving civilian services for defence purposes, including the protection of the civilian population; they may be assigned to public employment only for the purpose of discharging police functions or such other sovereign functions of public administration as can be discharged only by persons employed in the public service. The employment contemplated by the first sentence of this paragraph may include services within the Armed Forces, in the provision of military supplies or with public administrative authorities; assignments to employment connected with supplying and servicing the civilian population shall be permissible only to meet their basic requirements or to guarantee their safety.

(4) If, during a state of defence, the need for civilian services in the civilian health system or in stationary military hospitals cannot be met on a voluntary basis, women between the age of eighteen and fifty-five may be called upon to render such services by or pursuant to a law. Under no circumstances may they be required to render service involving the use of arms.

(5) Prior to the existence of a state of defence, assignments under paragraph (3) of this Article may be made only if the requirements of paragraph (1) of Article 80a are met. In preparation for the provision of services under paragraph (3) of this Article that demand special knowledge or skills, participation in training courses may be required by or pursuant to a law. In this case the first sentence of this paragraph shall not apply.

(6) If, during a state of defence, the need for workers in the areas specified in the second sentence of paragraph (3) of this Article cannot be met on a voluntary basis, the right of German citizens to abandon their occupation or place of employment may be restricted by or pursuant to a law in order to meet this need. Prior to the existence of a state of defence, the first sentence of paragraph (5) of this Article shall apply, mutatis mutandis.

Article 13
[Inviolability of the home]

(1) The home is inviolable.

(2) Searches may be authorised only by a judge or, when time is of the essence, by other authorities designated by the laws and may be carried out only in the manner therein prescribed.

(3) If particular facts justify the suspicion that any person has committed an especially serious crime specifically defined by a law, technical means of acoustical surveillance of any home in which the suspect is supposedly staying may be employed pursuant to judicial order for the purpose of prosecuting the offence, provided that alternative methods of investigating the matter would be disproportionately difficult or unproductive. The authorisation shall be for a limited time. The order shall be issued by a panel composed of three judges. When time is of the essence, it may also be issued by a single judge.

(4) To avert acute dangers to public safety, especially dangers to life or to the public, technical means of surveillance of the home may be employed only pursuant to judicial order. When time is of the essence, such measures may also be ordered by other authorities designated by a law; a judicial decision shall subsequently be obtained without delay.

(5) If technical means are contemplated solely for the protection of persons officially deployed in a home, the measure may be ordered by an authority designated by a law. The information thereby obtained may be otherwise used only for purposes of criminal prosecution or to avert danger and only if the legality of the measure has been previously determined by a judge; when time is of the essence, a judicial decision shall subsequently be obtained without delay.

(6) The Federal Government shall report to the Bundestag annually as to the employment of technical means pursuant to paragraph (3) and, within the jurisdiction of the Federation, pursuant to paragraph (4) and, insofar as judicial approval is required, pursuant to paragraph (5) of this Article. A panel elected by the Bundestag shall exercise parliamentary oversight on the basis of this report. A comparable parliamentary oversight shall be afforded by the Länder.

(7) Interferences and restrictions shall otherwise only be permissible to avert a danger to the public or to the life of an individual or, pursuant to a law, to confront an acute danger to public safety and order, in particular to relieve an accommodation shortage, to combat the danger of an epidemic or to protect young persons at risk.

Article 14
[Property – Inheritance – Expropriation]

(1) Property and the right of inheritance shall be guaranteed. Their content and limits shall be defined by the laws.

(2) Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good.

(3) Expropriation shall only be permissible for the public good. It may only be ordered by or pursuant to a law that determines the nature and extent of compensation. Such compensation shall be determined by establishing an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected. In case of dispute concerning the amount of compensation, recourse may be had to the ordinary courts.

Article 15
[Nationalisation]

Land, natural resources and means of production may, for the purpose of nationalisation, be transferred to public ownership or other forms of public enterprise by a law that determines the nature and extent of compensation. With respect to such compensation the third and fourth sentences of paragraph (3) of Article 14 shall apply, mutatis mutandis.

Article 16
[Citizenship – Extradition]

(1) No German may be deprived of his citizenship. Loss of citizenship may occur only pursuant to a law and, if it occurs against the will of the person affected, only if he does not become stateless as a result.

(2) No German may be extradited to a foreign country. The law may provide otherwise for extraditions to a member state of the European Union or to an international court, provided that the rule of law is observed.

Article 16a
[Right of asylum]

(1) Persons persecuted on political grounds shall have the right of asylum.

(2) Paragraph (1) of this Article may not be invoked by a person who enters the federal territory from a member state of the European Communities or from another third state in which application of the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms is assured. The states outside the European Communities to which the conditions referred to in the first sentence of this paragraph apply shall be specified by a law requiring the consent of the Bundesrat. In the cases specified in the first sentence of this paragraph, measures to terminate an applicant’s stay may be implemented without regard to any legal challenge that may have been instituted against them.

(3) By a law requiring the consent of the Bundesrat, states may be specified in which, on the basis of their laws, enforcement practices and general political conditions, it can be safely concluded that neither political persecution nor inhuman or degrading punishment or treatment exists. It shall be presumed that a foreigner from such a state is not persecuted, unless he presents evidence justifying the conclusion that, contrary to this presumption, he is persecuted on political grounds.

(4) In the cases specified by paragraph (3) of this Article and in other cases that are plainly unfounded or considered to be plainly unfounded, the implementation of measures to terminate an applicant’s stay may be suspended by a court only if serious doubts exist as to their legality; the scope of review may be limited, and tardy objections may be disregarded. Details shall be determined by a law.

(5) Paragraphs (1) to (4) of this Article shall not preclude the conclusion of international agreements of member states of the European Communities with each other or with those third states which, with due regard for the obligations arising from the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, whose enforcement must be assured in the contracting states, adopt rules conferring jurisdiction to decide on applications for asylum, including the reciprocal recognition of asylum decisions.

Article 17
[Right of petition]

Every person shall have the right individually or jointly with others to address written requests or complaints to competent authorities and to the legislature.

Article 17a
[Restriction of basic rights in specific instances]

(1) Laws regarding military and alternative service may provide that the basic right of members of the Armed Forces and of alternative service freely to express and disseminate their opinions in speech, writing and pictures (first clause of the first sentence of paragraph (1) of Article 5), the basic right of assembly (Article and the right of petition (Article 17), insofar as it permits the submission of requests or complaints jointly with others, be restricted during their period of military or alternative service.

(2) Laws regarding defence, including protection of the civilian population, may provide for restriction of the basic rights of freedom of movement (Article 11) and inviolability of the home (Article 13).

Article 18
[Forfeiture of basic rights]

Whoever abuses the freedom of expression, in particular the freedom of the press (paragraph (1) of Article 5), the freedom of teaching (paragraph (3) of Article 5), the freedom of assembly (Article 8), the freedom of association (Article 9), the privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications (Article 10), the rights of property (Article 14) or the right of asylum (Article 16a) in order to combat the free democratic basic order shall forfeit these basic rights. This forfeiture and its extent shall be declared by the Federal Constitutional Court.

Article 19
[Restriction of basic rights – Legal remedies]

(1) Insofar as, under this Basic Law, a basic right may be restricted by or pursuant to a law, such law must apply generally and not merely to a single case. In addition, the law must specify the basic right affected and the Article in which it appears.

(2) In no case may the essence of a basic right be affected.

(3) The basic rights shall also apply to domestic legal persons to the extent that the nature of such rights permits.

(4) Should any person’s rights be violated by public authority, he may have recourse to the courts. If no other jurisdiction has been established, recourse shall be to the ordinary courts. The second sentence of paragraph (2) of Article 10 shall not be affected by this paragraph.

II. The Federation and the Länder

Article 20
[Constitutional principles – Right of resistance]

(1) The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state.

(2) All state authority is derived from the people. It shall be exercised by the people through elections and other votes and through specific legislative, executive and judicial bodies.

(3) The legislature shall be bound by the constitutional order, the executive and the judiciary by law and justice.

(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.

Article 20a
[Protection of the natural foundations of life and animals]

Mindful also of its responsibility towards future generations, the state shall protect the natural foundations of life and animals by legislation and, in accordance with law and justice, by executive and judicial action, all within the framework of the constitutional order.

 

[Gromnir]

33 minutes ago, Elerond said:

 Germany's constitution puts lots of limits for government and making amendments to it needs very unified Germany and it forbids amendments to basics rights, which are defined in eternity clause to make them 'eternal'

German constitutional rights which can't be changed by democratic process

 

we need do this again, eh? didn't we discuss this a few years ago?

example: we specific brought up speech, and speech is protected in the German Constitution (Article 5) but not the way an American would recognize such protections... 'cause land of the free and all that.  we just offered an example how german doctors were criminalized if they offered abortion advice previous to 2022, yes?

keep in mind that on paper both the russian and chinesse have constitutions protecting far more freedoms than does the US Constitution.

Article 35 Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 31. Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to gather peacefully, without weapons, and to hold meetings, rallies, demonstrations, marches and pickets.

the difference is the US Constitution does in fact protect offensive speech, hate speech, nazi marches and cartoons o' mohmmad. even if is incidental regulation, we got a strict scrutiny standard which does not exist in germany much less in russia or china.

in the US, the government (fed/state/local) may only limit speech if it has a compelling state interest and the means o' enforcement must needs be the least restrictive possible.

we can go through examples and case law (again) but this should all be well trod. US standard for Constitutional protections creates a greater limit on government action than exists for speech, free exercise o' religion and a host o' other liberties.

copy and paste the words is not meaningful in and of itself.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gromnir

[Lexx]

And yet here we are, with teachers in Florida cleaning the bookshelves, just in case so they don't lose their job or go to jail. Can this be reverted? Yeah, probably, but for now the damage is done. In multiple ways - it's additional work to (temporarily) get rid of all the books, who is paying for that, who is doing the work? Who is going to vet the books later, how long will this take, etc. etc. Then the psychological damage, additional stress for the teachers for no reason other than spite(??) or to own the libs or whatever bs. It's a big waste of time for everyone involved, and certainly not a good look.

On the other hand, america is very big, so people affected could just go to a different place, I guess. That comes with a whole bunch of other problems, though.

/Edit:

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

does lexx experience on this board suggest americans in general is poor educated? yes or no? ..... anybody think that without lexx the educational and intellectual depth o' the obsidian pool would go from 3 meters to 1? is lexx just speaking o' those other americans when he complains o' the US education system?  am knowing you think little o' us personal *snort* but given the numerous US posters hereabouts, does this place fail to match your expectations?  do the US folks hereabouts really seem bass ackwards and uneducated? really? 

No, and I never said that. Also funny that you are now insulting me. Way to make stuff up, too. I don't have anything against americans at all, I'm merely baffled by the funny laws you guys like so much, the way the rich can fleece the poor, and the way you defend those fascists. Good job anyways, here have a bee.

/Edit2: What you don't seem to grasp is the importance of america in the world. Things that affect you has a ripple effect and will affect us as well. If things go terribly wrong in america, it's just a matter of time till it arrives on our shores as well, since we are very much globalized now. If that weren't the case, I probably wouldn't care at all, just like I don't care about places like Saudi Arabia (with the exceptions of the terrible human rights issues and so on of course). Personally I see germany as something like the little brother of america for like 30+ years now. We're always a few steps behind. This is good in some areas, and bad in others. Yadda yadda, I'm not in the mood to post a wall of text, I'm probably too uneducated for that anyways.

PS: Just to clarify, I do not have any feelings good or bad about you personally at all.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

lord only knows what lexx has a right to feel insulted 'bout. 'cause we asked him to identify the posters who confirm his belief that the US education system is utter garbage? 

...

well, maybe you don't feel comfortable naming names. fair enough. offer us a percentage or a fraction and then compare to european posters. what percentage o' US posters hereabouts exemplify the utter garbage educational system @Hurlshotis doling out daily? 90% less or more? how much less or more?

if the percentage or fraction o' doltish (again, your word) US posters frequenting these boards is smallish, then don't you recognize a disconnect with you utter garbage observation?  is not as if this board is invite-only mensa or rand. is fans o' a crpg developer, so am thinking we hardly represent some kinda intellectual elite. 

can't answer the question? why? if few US posters here is doltish, then shouldn't that cause a reevaluation o' your utter garbage observation? if not, then why not?  is something special about obsidan which insulates against endemic american doltishness? if the observed doltishness for US folks is similar to that o' euro, asian, south american and australian posters, why wouldn't such make lexx at least question the utter garbage schtick?

lord knows it can't be the improbably funny or bad laws passed by the democratic majority o' florida which makes you conclude the US education system is utter garbage, 'cause we already pointed out the German abortion laws which would make even a texan shudder and is not difficult to identify other equal misguided laws. how many decades elapsed 'fore germany final got around to ending the criminalization o' doctors giving patients factual accurate abortion info? germans would "never" do such myopic, stoopid and unjust? again, you brought up the german comparison.

and even if you three wise monkey your way outta considering bad german laws, such still don't explain the oasis which is the obsidian boards, eh? if the US education system is such utter garbage, then where is the anticipated higher % o' utter garbage educated US posters? 

as for the psychological damage and emotional stress...

*eye-roll*

the florida law is a stoopid and is gonna fail for any number o' reasons but in part 'cause o' what we see with the empty shelves--nobody knows exact what books is resulting in criminal liability. even so, the law were passed legit by the state legislature so is gonna need go through the Courts to be struck down as unconstitutional. is highly improbable anybody loses liberty (ie. receives jail or prison time) as a result o' this law, but rule o' law has us going through the stoopid and tedious process.

'course by the time the woke book law is killed, desantis will have moved on to something just as vile, 'cause fearmongering is almost the entirety o' the current gop playbook. meaningful change is gonna require education but more immediate the economic well-being o' the mullet heads and gator humpers down in florida, texas and all too much o' the south and midwest needs to improve. like or not, those folks in florida vote and for the past couple decades they has become increasing afraid 'bout their economic future. that legitimate economic fears o' the lower and lower middle-class translates into susceptibility to the stoopid being peddled by the current gop.  somebody who has a good job and has enough money to pay a mortgage and send their kids to college is more or less likely to buy into nonsense 'bout how immigrants is the root o' all evils? 

btw, crt, if it were being taught, would help folks understand that systemic racism is only changing when economic realities change. 'ccording to crt, racism is not a white or black or red flaw but is a natural if despicable societal certainty. particular when the dominant cultural and economic group is afraid o' losing its grip on power, racist animus tends to increase and such inequalities is not fixed with grandiose speeches so much as changing economic realities. we do wish crt were being taught everywhere as the gop fears.

 
HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gromnir

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, Sarex said:

Seems that the Chinese spy balloon is in fact a weather controlling balloon.

Maybe China was spying on the weather?

[Gfted1]

3 hours ago, Sarex said:

Seems that the Chinese spy balloon is in fact a weather controlling balloon.

Pfft, weaksauce. Weve been controlling the weather since aught '93 with HAARP: High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program - Wikipedia 

[Malcador]

15 hours ago, Lexx said:

America, land of the free. Funny how people still vote for those dolts.

Have the freedom to be stupid, I guess.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Pfft, weaksauce. Weve been controlling the weather since aught '93 with HAARP: High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program - Wikipedia 

is doubtful anybody would watch the whole episode, so ff to 38:39. a young scottish physicist/chemist builds a cloud chamber after working as an unpaid observer at the ben nevis meteorological observatory, which lead to...

if you watch to the conclusion, and you don't already know too much 'bout charles wilson, the end result o' the cloud chamber is surprising.

wilson eventual won the nobel prize for physics most for his cloud chamber experiments though the bulk o' his scholarly work work meteorological focused.  

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/chinese-balloon-cause-civilian-injuries-deaths-rcna69052

There is a clear balloon gap here.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/chinese-balloon-cause-civilian-injuries-deaths-rcna69052

There is a clear balloon gap here.

A second ballon has hit the Pacific? Clearly China is planning to create a hurricane.

[Hurlshort]

Florida gonna Florida. 

*this post is brought to you by the American Education System*

[Malcador]

Ceterum censeo Floridam esse delendam

[HoonDing]

Weather balloons kill.

[Malcador]

Balloon shot down, Freedom is safe once again.

[Sarex]

In record time too.

[Gromnir]

we would have thought the chinese coulda' conjured up a storm or even a few clouds with their weather controlling balloon to protect it from destruction. 

one positive from all this is that donald trump jr. finally stopped spelling as "baloon," though am not sure if he and mtg understand why 60,000' up is gonna be outta range o' the ordinary second amendment honk to say nothing o' the obvious secondary problems created by uncounted hillbillies and rednecks failing to heed tyrone davis wisdom.

 

perhaps there is enough time before the next balloon to explain the physics to trump and mtg?

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

we need do this again, eh? didn't we discuss this a few years ago?

example: we specific brought up speech, and speech is protected in the German Constitution (Article 5) but not the way an American would recognize such protections... 'cause land of the free and all that.  we just offered an example how german doctors were criminalized if they offered abortion advice previous to 2022, yes?

keep in mind that on paper both the russian and chinesse have constitutions protecting far more freedoms than does the US Constitution.

Article 35 Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 31. Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to gather peacefully, without weapons, and to hold meetings, rallies, demonstrations, marches and pickets.

the difference is the US Constitution does in fact protect offensive speech, hate speech, nazi marches and cartoons o' mohmmad. even if is incidental regulation, we got a strict scrutiny standard which does not exist in germany much less in russia or china.

in the US, the government (fed/state/local) may only limit speech if it has a compelling state interest and the means o' enforcement must needs be the least restrictive possible.

we can go through examples and case law (again) but this should all be well trod. US standard for Constitutional protections creates a greater limit on government action than exists for speech, free exercise o' religion and a host o' other liberties.

copy and paste the words is not meaningful in and of itself.

HA! Good Fun!

 

US constitution protects those rights as well as Russian's constitutions. as long as people in power are willing to abide their laws.

There seem to appear more and more censorship laws all around US these days. And they don't target offensive speech or hate speech but educational speech. So US constitution seems to become more and more a paper that just promises rights and protections but is overruled by state governments left and right. And people's respect towards US supreme court also seems to be in heavy decline which does not bode well for constitutional protections.

Legally Germany has constitution that offers some of best protections for people's rights as it forbids changing those rights, but does not prevent courts interpreting those rights as limited.

But for example Germany is far ahead US when it comes to freedom of press, so there seems to be somethings that Germany's constitution (or culture) has succeed to protect better than US constitution.  

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

There seem to appear more and more censorship laws all around US these days. And they don't target offensive speech or hate speech but educational speech.

this is a misinterpretation. there is no such thing as educational speech in the US. the fact that the gop is targeting teachers and education don't result a new category o' speech. state and local school districts has always been able to choose how they tailor curriculum and which books they is gonna buy for libraries and use in lesson plans. laws which says idaho ain't gonna teach crt is not prohibitions on speech per se, so please don't get confused. choose not to teach farwell to manzanar or a swiftly tilting planet is also not censorship. if a teacher in idaho  talks 'bout crt in class they cannot be criminalized even if crt is not part o' the curriculum.

the only categories o' speech which don't get US protection is fighting words (which ain't likely what you think it means and is a non factor 'cause no SCOTUS case has been upheld on the basis o' fighting words since the category were recognized,) obscenity (which is extreme difficult to identify and is little case law supporting,) and child pr0n... and child pr0n is banned not 'cause it is revolting or offensive but 'cause o' the inherent threat to underaged participants in crafting the media... which shocks people when they realize animated pr0n or cg which involves technical adult actors to appear younger don't trigger child pr0n prohibitions. (edit: to clarify, when am mentioning categories unprotected speech in the US am referencing those limited categories where the government don't need meet any standard to prohibit. child pr0n is verboten. period.)

however, if you are genuine interested, am suggesting reading tinker v. des moines, fcc v. pacifica and the infamous bong hits for jesus case. much like child pr0n, the perceived potential victimization o' kids results in admitted fuzzy exceptions to ordinary free speech protections and those exceptions is akin to lightning strikes 'cause is no way to predict when the Court will decide young bairns need special protection. however, keep in mind that something like crt and alternative lifestyle choices is gonna skew far more readily with tinker than bethel v. fraser. is not educational speech, but there is an admitted grey area when kids is imagined to be potential victims o' harmful or disruptive utterances while involved in school activities.

and you didn't read the link 'bout german limits o' press we included in the previous post, eh?

Germany has some of the world’s toughest laws on defamation, incitement to commit crimes and threats of violence, with prison sentences for Holocaust denial or inciting hatred against minorities.

Maas said social networks needed to stick to the law like everyone else, adding: “Those who care about protecting freedom of opinion can’t just look on as criminal incitement and threats inhibit the open exchange of views.”

don't just read the euro press 'bout their fantabulous free press.

recently the US freedom o' press has been rated by reporters without borders and amnesty international as less protective in part 'cause o' trump (and obama) making threats to jail reporters who leaked info... or trumps general toxic language regarding enemy o' the state. as it so happens, obama jailed more journalists than any US President since lincoln. jail, btw, is not prison. virtual all those journalists won their cases on first amendment grounds which is understandably overlooked. being jailed for reporting truth is bad even if you win freedom. 'course the main reason US ranks lower than germany and sweden and so many others is NOT 'cause o' legal protections 'gainst censorship but rather 'cause o' the very real threat o' violence american journalists face from ordinary citizens. trump speaks o' the press as a whole being an "enemy o' the people" and we even have posters on this board expressing indifference at the murder o' reporters. there is a real and embarrassing toxic anti-journalist culture here in the US and is fair to mention such insofar as penumbral freedom o' press, but such is not specific relevant to legal and Constitutional protections o' reporters and press.

however, the only legal relevant aspect where the US suffers on those curious lists from reporters without borders and the like is the assange and handler issues dealing with national security. as we noted, obama and eric holder lost near all the cases involving journalists-- by definition their actions were illegal. have mentioned previous how is pretty much no legal Constitutional scholar who supports the way the 1917 espionage act has been used to attack reporters, but from a practical pov you are talking extreme rare instances. again, assange and handler is the folks who got all the attention. am knowing you still ain't getting what am talking 'bout with the strict scrutiny standard used in the US v. germany, sweden or elsewhere and so you focus instead on lists or rando examples or the text o' the constitutions. "Legally Germany has constitution that offers some of best protections for people's rights as it forbids changing those rights, but does not prevent courts interpreting those rights as limited." limiting those rights is exact why offensive and hateful speech by citizens and reporters in germany may be censored while such is not possible in the US. 

that said, am gonna admit strict scrutiny, while a far more restrictive bar on US government limits o' speech than near any euro equivalent has a flaw which refuses to die. world war 1 era case law remains which tells us the the ambiguous and vague national security interests related to potential espionage qualifies as a compelling government interest we mentioned is a foundational strict scrutiny query.  sure, ordinary german censorship o' hate and offensive speech is gonna impact far more reporters than does national security cases just as would be true in the US. how many reporters in the US need be concerned with the espionage act? serious.

even so, the espionage act stuff is gross and repugnant and not all is rearview mirror fodder akin to eugene debs.

(edit: am not sure why we insist on spelling "debbs" wrong.) or schenck.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

I think both the radical left and far right hijack events like Florida  to peddle their own fear mongering and hyperbole 

But the banning of woke material in Florida  seems more about CRT and other similar types or revisionist education, here is link that discusses this and to quote 

 

'The law restricts lessons and training on race and diversity in schools and in the workplace, particularly anything that discusses privilege or oppression based on race, or whether someone “bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress” due to U.S. racial history.

"No one should be instructed to feel as if they are not equal or shamed because of their race," DeSantis said in a statement on the signing of the bill. "In Florida, we will not let the far-left woke agenda take over our schools and workplaces. There is no place for indoctrination or discrimination in Florida."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/desantis-asks-state-colleges-data-critical-race-theory/story?id=96189743

I think its  perfectly reasonable to not teach kids they are responsible for something, that in some cases, occurred hundreds of years ago  or they are assumed to have a indirect responsibility for because of their race. 

In other words  just because you white that doesnt mean your ancestors had anything to do with the terrible practice of slavery. Everyone should recognize historical injustice but that doesnt mean you responsible or should feel guilty 

 

[Lexx]

49 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

the radical left

I always lol about this. As if america has a radical left. Red scare is so omnipresent that people forgot what actually left is.

49 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I think its  perfectly reasonable to not teach kids they are responsible for something, that in some cases, occurred hundreds of years ago

They shouldn't tell them they are responsible (don't know if they do, didn't look into it), but they should explain why and how such events occured. Rightwingers don't want to talk about it at all, since they like having their skeletons remain buried.

[BruceVC]

37 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I always lol about this. As if america has a radical left. Red scare is so omnipresent that people forgot what actually left is.

They shouldn't tell them they are responsible (don't know if they do, didn't look into it), but they should explain why and how such events occured. Rightwingers don't want to talk about it at all, since they like having their skeletons remain buried.

Sure but then we must very honest about things like the Atlantic slave trade and who was historically  responsible for what . For many people they haven't studied the history so they think its all about white people\Europeans who were the only people involved in the African slave trade. Thats not historically accurate. There were black tribes who enslaved other black tribes and sold them to European slave traders and the Arabs were always prolific slave traders in Africa

I watched an excellent true story  mini-series about this, its called the Book of Negroes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Negroes_(miniseries)

But the point Im making is I support historical education for kids but it must be accurate and not biased towards one race as if only " white people enslaved people from Africa" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gorth]

10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Sure but then we must very honest about things like the Atlantic slave trade and who was historically  responsible for what

England