Ukraine Conflict

[Mamoulian War]

9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It was suppressed in 1992 by independent Ukraine. The Soviet, of course, recognised Crimea as an ASSR on Feb 12 1991. That's heh, de jure as it gets in the USSR. Ironically, of course, you're happily claiming Arsakh as Azeri in the very same post based on... another soviet decision, and one which didn't have anything democratic about it at all. If one's de jure, both are.

I'll be explicit, I don't care about de jure a whit in that situation because there isn't a scintilla of doubt that the Azeris will ethnically cleanse, or just plain kill, the historical inhabitants of that area if given the chance. Anybody who justifies that under de jure terms, well, doesn't understand how international law works anyway (or, as always, should work). With 'Turkiye'- a country so insecure it had to change its name from that of a bird- cheering them on like it's 1915 all over again. Let's not forget, the official Turkish version is still that the Armenians were all traitors who decided to go for a long walk with no supplies and just gave up and died on the way, no fault to them.

lol. Macron talks a good game, but it's entirely talk* and worth nothing. Who in NATO is actually supplying Armenia, and what? Here's the list of Armenian equipment- please remember to exclude anything loaned for peacekeeping purposes.

Pashinyan is pretty desperate to get aid from anyone and especially to prop himself up politically, and that involves slagging off Russia because that's how he got to power. Hardly a good idea if you want them to be supplying weaponry on credit. Indeed, rather than blame their previous loss on themselves they tried to blame Russia for that as well.

Anyway, let's see what the Azeris have to say on the subject, eh?

"Russian Peacekeepers Supply Weapons to Armenian Separatists in Azerbaijan's Karabakh Region" -- guess someone is lying.

Bit OT for here though, eh?

*except for a dozen MILANs. I'm sure the Azeris are... quaking.

Seriously, the hypocrisy is shooting over the roof in here. So you are just admitted, that you are ignoring international laws, whenever it suits your narrative, because you “feel” that something might theoretically happen. So it is OK for armenian people have Artsakh, because you “feel” that genocide might happen, but it is not OK for albanian people to have Kosovo, despite real genocide happening there  And you are frowning over other people, that they are cheering to the hypocrisy of the West… The pot calling a kettle black…

The dissolution of USSR and creating new republics was same mess as dissolution of African colonies or British Raj. International law is here to uphold the status quo, until the feuding sides find a new solution for their issues, either through courts or diplomacy. Armenia attacked Azerbaijan in 1991, and is still occupying the part of the neighboring country, and until a court or diplomacy says something different, the international law says that Artsakh is part of Azerbaijan, as much as it says that Catalunya is part of Spain or Tigray is part of Ethiopia… We can dispute the ways how all the countries are handling the current situation, but that does not change the basic fact, that there still was no ruling nor outcome of the negotiations, which would alter the current state, and that has to be respected. Ignoring international laws is just bringing more and more wars and killings on the table, no matter who the culprit is… The funny thing in this is, that the prime cause of all this mess is Soviet Union/Russia, which they attacked these countries 100 years ago and assimilated them, and did with them whatever it wanted including deportations and genocide, but you still find a way how to blame the West for it 

Back to referendum in Crimea. You are completely false about what you claim. Crimea never voted in any referendom to leave Ukraine. They voted to become new Autonomous Soviet Socialistic Republic. Which was even  approved by Kyiv, and become Crimean ASSR of Ukrainian SSR . Before the collapse of Soviet Union, there was another referendum in whole Ukraine, to become independent from Soviet Union, and even people of Crimea voted in favour of leaving USSR. So the whole Ukraine SSR, including Crimea left Soviet Union. Ukraine SSR became Republic of Ukraine, and Crimea ASSR, became autonomous Republic of Crimea within Ukraine in 1992. In 1994 there was another referendum in Crimea, and even in this referendum, there was no question about leaving Ukraine. There were questions about deeper autonomy within Republic of Ukraine…

You can try to spin it how much you want, but it does not change the fact, the Crimea never voted for leaving Ukraine, until sham referendum in 2014…

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Malcador]

10 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/17/europe/brittney-griner-russia-prison-colony/index.html

Griner has been sent to a penal colony to  serve her 9 year " sentence " for possession of less than 1 gram of cannabis

And no real real global outrage from BLM movements. But thats to be expected because its not in a  Western country. You can have 500k people die in Ethiopia in a civil war and thats okay but racism on the border of Poland and Hungary will galvanize outrage and protest 

What does BLM have to do with this?

As for Tigray, they must be in good company, not like the Euros gave a **** about those deaths.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

13 minutes ago, Malcador said:

What does BLM have to do with this?

Rent free tenant in people's heads.

[BruceVC]

44 minutes ago, Malcador said:

What does BLM have to do with this?

As for Tigray, they must be in good company, not like the Euros gave a **** about those deaths.

Well shes American, black and her life matters?

And the AU could actually care about the killings in Ethiopia. If they can comment on racism on the border of Poland Im sure they can condemn the death and starvation of 500k people in Ethiopia. But the AU statements are that this violence is  "legitimate " 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/01/africa/africa-condemns-racism-ukraine-intl/index.html

https://news.yahoo.com/african-union-says-ethiopia-acted-120429299.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

And Im not sure why you think the EU should care more for conflicts in Africa than the AU?

[Zoraptor]

9 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Seriously, the hypocrisy is shooting over the roof in here. So you are just admitted, that you are ignoring international laws, whenever it suits your narrative, because you “feel” that something might theoretically happen. So it is OK for armenian people have Artsakh, because you “feel” that genocide might happen, but it is not OK for albanian people to have Kosovo, despite real genocide happening there  And you are frowning over other people, that they are cheering to the hypocrisy of the West… The pot calling a kettle black…

Last time I checked I'm not an international organisation that claims to stand for the rules based system, I don't have to care about international law; personally. Indeed, I've spent a lot of time pointing out what an absolute crock of crap it is.

As for theoretically, you might want to read a history book sometime. Keep defending Azerbaijan though, if nothing else your blatant double standard is something funny in a bad situation. And Kosovo- I'm going to go with the old classic in the good for goose, good for gander sense: nice whataboutism bro.

Quote

Back to referendum in Crimea. You are completely false about what you claim. Crimea never voted in any referendom to leave Ukraine. They voted to become new Autonomous Soviet Socialistic Republic. Which was even  approved by Kyiv, and become Crimean ASSR of Ukrainian SSR . Before the collapse of Soviet Union, there was another referendum in whole Ukraine, to become independent from Soviet Union, and even people of Crimea voted in favour of leaving USSR. So the whole Ukraine SSR, including Crimea left Soviet Union. Ukraine SSR became Republic of Ukraine, and Crimea ASSR, became autonomous Republic of Crimea within Ukraine in 1992. In 1994 there was another referendum in Crimea, and even in this referendum, there was no question about leaving Ukraine. There were questions about deeper autonomy within Republic of Ukraine…

Becoming an ASSR was the legal way to leave Ukraine in the USSR- since they could then vote to leave later. Indeed, they were meant to get a vote on staying in Ukraine anyway, if Ukraine seceded*. The Crimean Parliament voted on 5 May 1992 to become independent, to be confirmed by referendum. That second vote was, of course, suppressed by Ukraine so much so that they changed their constitution to make it illegal, despite it being a requirement of them leaving the USSR. Followed, of course, by sending in 70,000 troops in 1995, abolition of most of its actual autonomy and the banning of a bunch of parties- hence the Crimean parliament having super majorities of 'independent' MPs for most of the subsequent elections

*Oh yeah, same goes for Artsakh too, from Azerbaijan, since they were autonomous.

[Malcador]

 

[xzar_monty]

On 11/24/2022 at 9:59 PM, Zoraptor said:

Mmm, I do love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning. I eagerly await all the accusations of whataboutism from the usual suspects who can't cope with the cognitive dissonance.

But why be as deliberately snide as that? If you wish to advertise your intellectual superiority, isn't this a rather shabby place for that? To me, that tone is just juvenile, more than anything.

Nothing wrong with disagreement, and many of the arguments you present are quite cogent, in my view, but why add this layer of self-congratulation on it? It's so unnecessary. The arguments themselves would be interesting, but to respond to them after all that other stuff...? Why?

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Last time I checked I'm not an international organisation that claims to stand for the rules based system, I don't have to care about international law; personally. Indeed, I've spent a lot of time pointing out what an absolute crock of crap it is.

 

Yes we know how you selectively  reject international law, like the sovereignty of countries and Russian war crimes, because it doesnt suit your narrative and ideological bias towards the West

No need to point out what is demonstrably obvious 

Edited November 27, 2022 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

This sort of thing is to be expected, of course, but it does look remarkably cynical anyway: Putin has met with the "mothers of soldiers" (an important term in Russia, as I'm sure everyone here will know), but these mothers were very carefully chosen. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/25/putin-talks-to-mothers-of-soldiers-fighting-in-ukraine-in-staged-meeting

Russia's dealings in Africa also look decidedly shady. Will be interesting to see whether they can recruit soldiers this way: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-pressures-african-students-to-fight-in-ukraine-daily-beast-2022-11?r=US&IR=T

[Lexx]

Those mothers are actors. They were already identified from other putin videos, shortly after this video released. Weird how they thought nobody would recognize them... or they simply don't care?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

I wouldn't call them actors, just mothers whose views are in agreement with Russia's official policy -- and they were picked to be there precisely for that reason.

If I am correct, then the question of people recognizing them is irrelevant. The important thing is to create a spectacle that gives the impression of there being proper discussion about this difficult and painful subject. Whether anyone believes it or not doesn't mean a thing. The regime really is as cynical as this. Another case in point would be the "votes" carried in the areas that Russia recently claimed as their own. Of course they knew that everybody knew that it was a hoax from start to finish. But that didn't matter one bit. The important thing was to create a spectacle and have some pieces of paper that indicate that such-and-such voting took place and the results were such-and-such. This is really next-level cynicism.

Btw, it was the same almost a hundred years ago. One interesting thing you can see in the conviction documents concerning "enemies of the state" is that the charges changed according to how Stalin's policy changed. Reality was malleable. And the documents weren't even forged that carefully; you can easily see the earlier charges made against these people, sometimes they're simply crossed out and then new ones are written. It's astonishing: the important thing was to have a piece of paper that contained the right kind of accusation against these people (so that the killing seemed justified) but it didn't matter one bit if anyone could see that the paper was fake.

I wonder if someone fluent in Russian can comment on the fact that Russian has two different words for truth, pravda and istina. I don't speak the language so I don't dare comment on this question, but I have heard talk about how pravda is a human-made and changeable truth whereas istina is the real, non-negotiable, objective truth.

Edited November 27, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

This sort of thing is to be expected, of course, but it does look remarkably cynical anyway: Putin has met with the "mothers of soldiers" (an important term in Russia, as I'm sure everyone here will know), but these mothers were very carefully chosen. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/25/putin-talks-to-mothers-of-soldiers-fighting-in-ukraine-in-staged-meeting

Russia's dealings in Africa also look decidedly shady. Will be interesting to see whether they can recruit soldiers this way: https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-pressures-african-students-to-fight-in-ukraine-daily-beast-2022-11?r=US&IR=T

Another series of new lows for Putin, using staged grieving mothers and trying to convince  black students to fight in his calamitous war

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

But why be as deliberately snide as that? If you wish to advertise your intellectual superiority, isn't this a rather shabby place for that? To me, that tone is just juvenile, more than anything.

Nothing wrong with disagreement, and many of the arguments you present are quite cogent, in my view, but why add this layer of self-congratulation on it? It's so unnecessary. The arguments themselves would be interesting, but to respond to them after all that other stuff...? Why?

Surprisingly when you throw stones at people you get stones back. Also, are you new here? This forum generally is just intellectual flexing more than anything else.

[pmp10]

US allows Chevron to resume oil extraction in Venezuela.
A more practical squeeze on Russia than oil price cap.

Not a big deal in the near-term, but if successful this can start making a difference a year from now. 

[BruceVC]

51 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

US allows Chevron to resume oil extraction in Venezuela.
A more practical squeeze on Russia than oil price cap.

Not a big deal in the near-term, but if successful this can start making a difference a year from now. 

This is good news for the economically broken country, I cant think  of a better example of how socialist ineptitude and corruption  and nationalization can quickly destroy a prosperous country. I also like this part "Additionally, any profits earned will go to repaying debt to Chevron and not to the Maduro regime "

Thats necessary because of the 2007 egregious theft of foreign oil  company assets by Chavez, its interesting how forced nationalization always comes back to haunt the governments that do it  

Edited November 27, 2022 by BruceVC

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Surprisingly when you throw stones at people you get stones back. Also, are you new here? This forum generally is just intellectual flexing more than anything else.

I post here because I need to fill the void inside myself with reactions from people who I do not know, and for the greater part neither respect nor care about. It is not adequate to imbue my meaningless, hollow existence with purpose, but it does so better than most other pursuits.

[Malcador]

8 minutes ago, majestic said:

I post here because I need to fill the void inside myself with reactions from people who I do not know, and for the greater part neither respect nor care about. It is not adequate to imbue my meaningless, hollow existence with purpose, but it does so better than most other pursuits.

I post here because I'm a hollow shell of a soul fueled only by hate.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I post here because it's cheaper form of flagellation than paying a dominatrix to beat me.

[Lexx]

I post here because I'm bored.

[Zoraptor]

9 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

But why be as deliberately snide as that? If you wish to advertise your intellectual superiority, isn't this a rather shabby place for that? To me, that tone is just juvenile, more than anything.

Nothing wrong with disagreement, and many of the arguments you present are quite cogent, in my view, but why add this layer of self-congratulation on it? It's so unnecessary. The arguments themselves would be interesting, but to respond to them after all that other stuff...? Why?

You're at risk of taking things rather too seriously, I fear. This is not, after all, the Oxford Union*. Also, yes, one or two stones might be being returned to owners of glass houses.

(eg I don't actually think that bringing up Kosovo with respect to Artsakh is whataboutism, actually thinking that would certainly be hypocritical of me. No, it's fine as a comparison. That just illustrates how 'whatabourism' has become a tool to shut down anything people don't want to talk about; though I mostly don't want to talk about Kosovo because it's been done to death and is of tangential relevance. But, bring up Kosovo in a different context, and it certainly ain't me saying it's whataboutism, eh?)

*the Oxford Union debates I've actually seen have had rather a lot of snark and snide in them, but let's pretend otherwise for these purposes.

[xzar_monty]

@Zoraptor: Whataboutism had nothing to do with what I was saying. I don't think I've even mentioned the term on these forums (to check, I did a search and came up with nothing, but I wouldn't rely on myself on technical matters), and I certainly don't think you've been whatabouting.

Edited November 27, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Zoraptor]

Yeah; that's nothing to do with you it's just used as an illustration, ie:

Bring up  Kosovo as an example of carving bits off a country/ NATO bombing civilian infrastructure/ no UN mandate as relevant to the context of Ukraine -->--> that's whataboutism from... let's say pro NATO types, though that's obviously a simplification. Of course, IMO that's just an attempt to shut down a argument that they can't think of a way to  counter effectively by shouting an irrelevant buzz phrase instead (but then I would think that, wouldn't I?)

However, when MW brings it up as a potential inconsistency in my thinking- and I'd stress, it's absolutely fair of him to do so, as it is a potential inconsistency, just one I can't really be bothered explaining as it's not really relevant- you don't get the pro NATO types calling that whataboutism. Which they really ought to, since if Kosovo is irrelevant in the top cases it's even more irrelevant in that case.

Hence lobbing that particular 'stone' back over the fence by calling MW bringing it up whataboutism.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/oil-prices-fall-2-25-as-chinese-demand-worries-linger/ar-AA14yQ2V

 

Oil price is down nicely  to $82 and its primarily because of less demand from the likes of China and there ridiculous and draconian attempts to control the virus. OPEC + understandably  cut oil production from the 1 November because they predicted that there will be less demand but this hasnt created the panic buying and oil price to rise

Vatniks cheered this thinking that this was about support for Putin's War but end of the day Russia's attempt to blackmail the world and the  West with energy, both gas and oil, has failed and will continue to fail because Russia energy contribution  is not as important as Vatniks believe

Russia's  ability to influence energy prices will become more and more  irrelevant as the world adjusts and finds  different markets, it will always matter because it is an oil producer but the main reason for energy price fluctuation is global supply and demand. Its not about  Putin sabotaging pipes or their own type  of " Western sanctions " on oil supply 

Chinas appetite for oil is much more relevant to the overall oil price than what Putin's hopes  he can control 

Its a pity @Darkpriestisnt active at the moment. I would love to hear his ZH predictions now. He has constantly told us that in the third or fourth quarter  ( we now at the near the end of the fourth quarter)we going to see price of oil and gas skyrocket  and how this would " crash" Western economies and this is all because of Western sanctions on Russia 

Thats been proven to be clearly untrue but thats the risk with economic predictions that are based on ideological views and not data

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yeah; that's nothing to do with you it's just used as an illustration, ie:

Bring up  Kosovo as an example of carving bits off a country/ NATO bombing civilian infrastructure/ no UN mandate as relevant to the context of Ukraine -->--> that's whataboutism from... let's say pro NATO types, though that's obviously a simplification. Of course, IMO that's just an attempt to shut down a argument that they can't think of a way to  counter effectively by shouting an irrelevant buzz phrase instead (but then I would think that, wouldn't I?)

However, when MW brings it up as a potential inconsistency in my thinking- and I'd stress, it's absolutely fair of him to do so, as it is a potential inconsistency, just one I can't really be bothered explaining as it's not really relevant- you don't get the pro NATO types calling that whataboutism. Which they really ought to, since if Kosovo is irrelevant in the top cases it's even more irrelevant in that case.

Hence lobbing that particular 'stone' back over the fence by calling MW bringing it up whataboutism.

But why dont you create your  own thread on Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, Libya and the Palestinian vs Israeli conflict? There is no reason you cant. Then you guys can lament and rage on the hypocrisy of the West in a dedicated thread?

Im sure it will be well supported?

 

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yeah; that's nothing to do with you it's just used as an illustration, ie:

Ok, fair enough. My stance is pretty much along the lines of don't stoop low even if someone else does, which, to me, seems particularly appropriate when discussing a war. And in that particular comment the extraneous stuff weakened the otherwise strong argument by really quite a lot. If you think that's taking things too seriously then ok, but I disagree.