Ukraine Conflict - "Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed"

[Mamoulian War]

@Gorgon The only people dehumanizing Russians in the eyes of general populace, are Russians themselves, with their own actions…

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[xzar_monty]

17 minutes ago, Gorgon said:

This is the process though, it happens in every war. The dehumanization of the enemy and the gradual loss off your own humanity. 

It does, yes.

In a sense, it may even be a requirement, because the guilt of having killed a large number of your peers is unlikely to be pleasant. Which is not to say that there isn't severe guilt no matter what, at least in a large proportion of soldiers. (I can easily remember a local veteran of WW2 who was painstakingly obvious in his inability to regard the people he had almost certainly killed as humans; they were only "the enemy". I thought that was a particularly obvious example of a psychological defense mechanism at work -- and given that he was essentially a kid when he went to war, it's no wonder.)

The communist states, by the way, were particularly brutal and effective in their dehumanization efforts even outside war. For instance, when the communist party set its quotas of people guilty of treason in Ukraine in the late 1930s, it was often the peers, neighbours and even family members whose duty it was to carry out the orders, up to signing the execution warrants. And the process did indeed work like this: the quotas of guilty people were set first (in Poltava, for instance, it was initially set at 5 000, but as the local KGB branch wanted to please the party, it asked for permission to increase the quota, and the permission was granted), and only then was the process started to actually find these guilty ones. The people responsible for finding them were best advised to come up with the requisite number of offenders, or else.

This process of dehumanization and destruction of people by their near and dear was extremely effective and traumatizing, as I suppose anyone can understand. If you want to demobilize your citizens and ensure that they don't rise against you, this is likely to be almost the perfect way. Russia is still carrying on this tradition, although in somewhat different form.

Speaking of traumatizing, btw, I was recently reading a study where it was rather forcefully asserted that being under artillery fire is among the most traumatizing things in war. The logic is as follows: everything that removes your agency and simply makes you a target is traumatizing, and thus -- for example -- mano-a-mano is always less traumatizing than simply being fired at (I suppose anyone can easily figure out why). You can be just a target when you're under artillery fire and when you're being bombed, for example, but there's an important variable here, too: when you're being bombed, you can hear and see the planes in advance and you know that it's coming, so there's less of a surprise factor involved: you can prepare, at least in some way. When you become under artillery fire, you cannot prepare, you cannot see it coming and you have no idea where the next hit is going to strike. This is one of the most traumatizing things in war, and its horror is compounded by the noise: modern warfare has become much more traumatizing than earlier warfare because the human nervous system doesn't really cope all that well with the sheer noise, for example. After WW2, the most traumatized and difficult-to-even-help-much-less-cure patients in psychiatric wards tended to be those who had repeatedly been under artillery fire.

Russia prefers artillery fire, particularly against civilians.

[xzar_monty]

Elsewhere: the Russian Orthodox church and its holy mission.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2022/10/orthodox-church-severomorsk-wanted-collaborate-drinking-wanter-kirkenes

[Hurlshort]

Laat week I was just going over the fact that Russia and Ukraine have the largest Eastern Orthodox populations in the world.

[xzar_monty]

Patriarch Kirill appears to have been a KGB agent. I'm not sure if this has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, but it seems very likely. Corrections welcome, as always.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gorgon said:

This is the process though, it happens in every war. The dehumanization of the enemy and the gradual loss off your own humanity. 

Sounds serious almost like you saying war causes people to do terrible things to achieve victory

Its true, thats what is often necessary in war and often occurs 

 

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Gorgon said:

So this time unintended 3 deaths were acceptable. What's the number for next time I wonder. 

Is interesting to see how things get parsed depending on the side. Read someone that said if they set up a driver to die, that was legitimate somehow. 

[xzar_monty]

28 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Is interesting to see how things get parsed depending on the side. Read someone that said if they set up a driver to die, that was legitimate somehow. 

But whatever happens in the war (or in any other thing, for that matter), you're going to find someone who thinks it's legitimate. So I'm not sure if that's much of an argument.

[Malcador]

14 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

But whatever happens in the war (or in any other thing, for that matter), you're going to find someone who thinks it's legitimate. So I'm not sure if that's much of an argument.

Flip the sides and those people will overflow with righteousness. I disagree that if someone dehumanizes or generalizes Russians that its the fault of the RuAF or whatever, you are in charge of yourself.

[xzar_monty]

Oh, of course. But has anyone suggested anything else?

EDIT: Apparently, yes, right at the top of this page. I suppose this is what you were referring to.

Edited October 9, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Mamoulian War]

You both are forgetting one crucial thing. Most Russians, which did not run away from the country yet, are supporting the acts of RuAF in Ukraine. You should not be surprised, that because of this, most of the people are judging all of them, based on these gruesome actions.

[Valsuelm]

9 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

@Gorgon The only people dehumanizing Russians in the eyes of general populace, are Russians themselves, with their own actions…

Incorrect.

Those working hard to dehumanize Russians, are the same people who dehumanized Iraqis, said there were 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, who tell you that Ukraine is winning a war they already effectively lost, and have told you innumerable other lies over the decades.

These folks seek to dehumanize a large group of people in order to promote greater war.' These people are evil.

A truth about the vast majority of people the world over: Most people (whether they're Russian, Ukrainian, Iraqi, American, Libyan, Iranian, German, or whatever)  just want to live their lives. They don't want war, they don't advocate for war, they don't support atrocity X in war. And when war happens, they generally do not cheer at the deaths of others, and certainly don't advocate or see such things as rape, purposeful killing of civilians, or targeting children in any way as tolerable or ok. Most people would like to see peace come sooner than later. The exceptions are generally either the pure evil folks who own/control the media or the gullible people who fall for the lies of the media.

If you've allowed the media to dehumanize any peoples on the planet in your eyes, especially such a large number as the ~150 million Russians in the world, and especially any culture which has deep roots in Christianity (which generally holds a higher value on human life than most (but not all) other cultures on the planet) you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed, and yourself to lose some of your humanity in the process. Please endeavor to not do that.

[Mamoulian War]

I didn’t knew Russians dehumanized Iraqis as well… I know, that this might be useless… you probably wave it away, as any other of their atrocities, but this is one small example among thousands, why people are calling Russians orcs, and are cheering every time a HIMARS is launched

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Elerond]

Countries have very hard time to fight offensive wars without support from majority of their population.

[Valsuelm]

21 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

I didn’t knew Russians dehumanized Iraqis as well… I know, that this might be useless… you probably wave it away, as any other of their atrocities, but this is one small example among thousands, why people are calling Russians orcs, and are cheering every time a HIMARS is launched

You''re offering nothing objective here.
It's a picture of a destroyed building, with zero context. There's no proof of what this building is, no proof of who destroyed it, not even any proof this building is in the vicinity of Ukraine.

[Valsuelm]

49 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Countries have very hard time to fight offensive wars without support from majority of their population.

Untrue.

Nations with large militaries are very capable of waging offensive military actions of a relatively small size without the support (or even knowledge of) most of the populace. The US and UK especially have done this innumerable times over the last ~120 and ~300 years respectively.

Moreover, those who control the levers of power on/in a nation can even wage large offensive wars in that nation's name without the legitimate support of a majority of it's populace. A good case in point is the US and World War 1 (If a nation has the legitimate support of a majority of it's populace for war, conscription is not needed).

In the case of Russia v. Ukraine, it's fairly safe to say that most Russians who support the war do not look at it as a war of aggression, but a war of liberation. This aspect being largely ignored and obfuscated in most of the dishonest western media outlets. The more astute realize this war is much larger than Russia v Ukraine, and has been going on for much longer than since February 2022.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Valsuelm

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Valsuelm said:

You''re offering nothing objective here.
It's a picture of a destroyed building, with zero context. There's no proof of what this building is, no proof of who destroyed it, not even any proof this building is in the vicinity of Ukraine.

It's the theatre in Mariupol which was used as a bomb shelter.

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

Countries have very hard time to fight offensive wars without support from majority of their population.

Which is, of course, why every offensive war is justified domestically by claiming it's actually a defensive war intended to protect the homeland or whatever.

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Valsuelm said:

A truth about the vast majority of people the world over: Most people (whether they're Russian, Ukrainian, Iraqi, American, Libyan, Iranian, German, or whatever)  just want to live their lives. They don't want war, they don't advocate for war, 

Vals you should tell Putin that, he invaded Ukraine and started this carnage and war

And he is a liar, you cant trust him as far as you can throw him. Remember when he said " we aren't going to invade Ukraine, our troops are just doing a training exercise on the border of Ukraine" 

Also if you dont trust any of the current media  houses where do you get your information from, who can we trust if embedded journalists in Ukraine from numerous places report on the same stories?

Edited October 10, 2022 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

Staggering numbers: over 1300 Russian tanks now documented captured or destroyed in Ukraine. Since these are only the documented numbers, with proper evidence, the real number essentially must be greater, but by how much I don't want to speculate.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

[Mamoulian War]

8 hours ago, Valsuelm said:

You''re offering nothing objective here.
It's a picture of a destroyed building, with zero context. There's no proof of what this building is, no proof of who destroyed it, not even any proof this building is in the vicinity of Ukraine.

LOL… now I have seen everything… and you actually proved my point, why are people dehumanizing supporters of Russian Army…

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[bugarup]

Aaaaand russia retaliates - to the surprise of absolutely no one - by bombing civilians. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by bugarup

[Mamoulian War]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Vals you should tell Putin that, he invaded Ukraine and started this carnage and war

And he is a liar, you cant trust him as far as you can throw him. Remember when he said " we aren't going to invade Ukraine, our troops are just doing a training exercise on the border of Ukraine" 

Also if you dont trust any of the current media  houses where do you get your information from, who can we trust if embedded journalists in Ukraine from numerous places report on the same stories?

Probably from Russia Today or RIA Novosti

[Mamoulian War]

Just now, bugarup said:

Aaaaand russia retaliates - to the surprise of absolutely no one - by bombing civilians. 

And this is why they will lose in the end. By wasting valuable war resources, which they cannot replenish under sanctions, on non-military targets

[xzar_monty]

8 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Aaaaand russia retaliates - to the surprise of absolutely no one - by bombing civilians. 

This was to be expected, yes. I remember watching a discussion between two Nordic politicians in early March. One of them pointed out that if the war doesn't go according to Russia's plans, Russia will resort to what it always resorts to: wholesale shelling of civilian targets with absolutely no regard for anything. I must admit Russia is good at this.

I am currently reading Ian Kershaw's To Hell and Back, which deals with Europe during 1914-1949. His verdict on Russia at the start of this period is sobering: "Violence, brutality and scant regard for human life had been deeply embedded in this society." It has not changed much -- and although human life got scant regard in most places before 1900, things have changed an awful lot in many places.

[Mamoulian War]

31 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

This was to be expected, yes. I remember watching a discussion between two Nordic politicians in early March. One of them pointed out that if the war doesn't go according to Russia's plans, Russia will resort to what it always resorts to: wholesale shelling of civilian targets with absolutely no regard for anything. I must admit Russia is good at this.

I am currently reading Ian Kershaw's To Hell and Back, which deals with Europe during 1914-1949. His verdict on Russia at the start of this period is sobering: "Violence, brutality and scant regard for human life had been deeply embedded in this society." It has not changed much -- and although human life got scant regard in most places before 1900, things have changed an awful lot in many places.

It is unimaginable for most of the civilized people. But Ukrainians stopped being afraid long time ago. And this how they see it after this morning. For them, these attacks are just an evidence, that they are winning.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mamoulian War