The All Things Political Topic - We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office

[Azdeus]

1 hour ago, ComradeYellow said:

https://medium.com/eudaimonia-co/is-europes-trumpian-moment-arriving-eff113f798c8

Parties funded by literal Nazi's gaining traction in Sweden.  But I thought Sweden was this Soc-Dem egalitarian utopia based on principles that are totally not based on white supremacy.

Sure, the author is a bit of a libtard spouting typical cliches of Blue states = good and Red states = bad with little nuance, but i am steadfast of the opinion that Europeans are far more racist than ****ing Americans, economic leftism or rightism completely out of the equation.

Real easy to scare people into voting for you when there's a gang war with shootings going on being pretty consistently reported on by the media. Even though crime generally is down. People are generally ignorant of the fact that our school system is on it's knees because politicians sold out our schools to the private market in the 90's and are now ill prepared to care for youths and give them a sense of hope for the future. The fact that they are orders of magnitude more likely to die from mistreatment at our failing healthcare system wooshes over peoples head all the time. As is the fact that while the left has had many periods they've had power in the Government, the Riksdag has had a right wing majority for the past 20 years.

So when some "ex" neo-nazi politician spouts bull**** promising collective punishment (Deporting criminals and their families), no more immigrants, more police (Achieved through lowering standards, because noone with brains wants to work for that wage), increase prison sentances, lower fuel taxes, remove alot of the green conversion fuel mandates, increase the speed of A-tractors (If you're a Swedish driver, this would probably net you all votes from people living outside the big cities), raise road speeds, increase pensions and more populistic things.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Azdeus

[BruceVC]

28 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

Real easy to scare people into voting for you when there's a gang war with shootings going on being pretty consistently reported on by the media. Even though crime generally is down. People are generally ignorant of the fact that our school system is on it's knees because politicians sold out our schools to the private market in the 90's and are now ill prepared to care for youths and give them a sense of hope for the future. The fact that they are orders of magnitude more likely to die from mistreatment at our failing healthcare system wooshes over peoples head all the time. As is the fact that while the left has had many periods they've had power in the Government, the Riksdag has had a right wing majority for the past 20 years.

So when some "ex" neo-nazi politician spouts bull**** promising collective punishment (Deporting criminals and their families), no more immigrants, more police (Achieved through lowering standards, because noone with brains wants to work for that wage), increase prison sentances, lower fuel taxes, remove alot of the green conversion fuel mandates, increase the speed of A-tractors (If you're a Swedish driver, this would probably net you all votes from people living outside the big cities), raise road speeds, increase pensions and more populistic things.

Comrade is just pushing his usual radical left hyperbole so I wouldnt take him seriously 

But the success of " right wing " parties in Sweden and throughout the EU is something everyone needs to consider and liberal immigration policies are a factor here as many of us have raised

On Al-Jazeera they highlighted how the reason you seeing this success and support in Sweden  for " right wing " parties is for reasons like gang violence and crime which is exacerbated by your liberal immigration policies. On Codex numerous Scandinavian members raised the same thing. And most of these Codex members are not white supremacist, like Rostere who use to a mod on Obsidian.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/12/swedish-opposition-inches-ahead-in-cliffhanger-election

So my question to you and @Pidescois you do accept and recognize how immigration is a huge part of this political change and what do you think should be done about it so it doesnt feed and strengthen the real right wing in the EU?

 

[Pidesco]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Comrade is just pushing his usual radical left hyperbole so I wouldnt take him seriously 

But the success of " right wing " parties in Sweden and throughout the EU is something everyone needs to consider and liberal immigration policies are a factor here as many of us have raised

On Al-Jazeera they highlighted how the reason you seeing this success and support in Sweden  for " right wing " parties is for reasons like gang violence and crime which is exacerbated by your liberal immigration policies. On Codex numerous Scandinavian members raised the same thing. And most of these Codex members are not white supremacist, like Rostere who use to a mod on Obsidian.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/12/swedish-opposition-inches-ahead-in-cliffhanger-election

So my question to you and @Pidescois you do accept and recognize how immigration is a huge part of this political change and what do you think should be done about it so it doesnt feed and strengthen the real right wing in the EU?

 

Immigration is inevitable and it will become increasingly more inevitable in the coming decades. Europe will be flooded by refugees whether we like it or not. So you either prepare for the people that are coming accordingly, or pretend "closing" borders and sticking your head in the sand will solve the problem.

[Chilloutman]

3 hours ago, Azdeus said:

Real easy to scare people into voting for you when there's a gang war with shootings going on being pretty consistently reported on by the media. Even though crime generally is down. People are generally ignorant of the fact that our school system is on it's knees because politicians sold out our schools to the private market in the 90's and are now ill prepared to care for youths and give them a sense of hope for the future. The fact that they are orders of magnitude more likely to die from mistreatment at our failing healthcare system wooshes over peoples head all the time. As is the fact that while the left has had many periods they've had power in the Government, the Riksdag has had a right wing majority for the past 20 years.

So when some "ex" neo-nazi politician spouts bull**** promising collective punishment (Deporting criminals and their families), no more immigrants, more police (Achieved through lowering standards, because noone with brains wants to work for that wage), increase prison sentances, lower fuel taxes, remove alot of the green conversion fuel mandates, increase the speed of A-tractors (If you're a Swedish driver, this would probably net you all votes from people living outside the big cities), raise road speeds, increase pensions and more populistic things.

I don't know man, most of those policies you mentioned seems ok with me and I am not nazi. I am not against immigration but those migrating in must meet some standards. You can't move Africa to Europe and expect them becoming Europeans. I was in Solentuna. not a place where you go for jogging at night as a girl

 

this is what I would vote for as well:

 

lower fuel taxes, remove alot of the green conversion fuel mandates, increase the speed of A-tractors (If you're a Swedish driver, this would probably net you all votes from people living outside the big cities), raise road speeds

[Chilloutman]

31 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Immigration is inevitable and it will become increasingly more inevitable in the coming decades. Europe will be flooded by refugees whether we like it or not. So you either prepare for the people that are coming accordingly, or pretend "closing" borders and sticking your head in the sand will solve the problem.

No

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Pidesco said:

Immigration is inevitable and it will become increasingly more inevitable in the coming decades. Europe will be flooded by refugees whether we like it or not. So you either prepare for the people that are coming accordingly, or pretend "closing" borders and sticking your head in the sand will solve the problem.

So if i understand you correctly citizens of Sweden, and other countries, must just  accept the reality of gang violence and increased crime because immigration is inevitable?

And  lets  be honest these problems have definitely increased due to  your liberal immigration policies so we cannot ignore  the connection

You dont  think maybe most  people would prefer a response like " lets immediately review our immigration policies "  because we can understand many people have valid concerns?

[Pidesco]

48 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

So if i understand you correctly citizens of Sweden, and other countries, must just  accept the reality of gang violence and increased crime because immigration is inevitable?

And  lets  be honest these problems have definitely increased due to  your liberal immigration policies so we cannot ignore  the connection

You dont  think maybe most  people would prefer a response like " lets immediately review our immigration policies "  because we can understand many people have valid concerns?

If by "review our immigration policies" you mean let's create systems that help integrate adult migrants into society, that help avoid the creation of immigrant ghettos, and that focus on the effective education of the children of immigrants, sure, I agree with that. If by " review our immigration policies" you mean close the borders, then no, that's plainly stupid.

If there are pressures that create large population movements between countries, be it war, climate, crime, or whatever, people are going to move across borders, whether you want them to or not.

https://comparativemigrationstudies.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40878-020-00213-1

[xzar_monty]

16 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

If by "review our immigration policies" you mean let's create systems that help integrate adult migrants into society

Now, this is a noble aim, and I support it. However, there is a fairly big problem, too, namely the fact that a substantial portion of the immigrants have absolutely no desire or inclination to integrate. This is readily apparent for anyone with eyes to see, or with ears to listen to what the immigrants themselves are saying.

What to do about this? To me, Sweden appears as a country whose immigration policies have been abused in a really big way, and Sweden still hasn't woken up to it, at least to the extent that it should.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Now, this is a noble aim, and I support it. However, there is a fairly big problem, too, namely the fact that a substantial portion of the immigrants have absolutely no desire or inclination to integrate. This is readily apparent for anyone with eyes to see, or with ears to listen to what the immigrants themselves are saying.

What to do about this? To me, Sweden appears as a country whose immigration policies have been abused in a really big way, and Sweden still hasn't woken up to it, at least to the extent that it should.

Im glad you raising these immigration realities  because when I mention it you  get some members, @majestic, who handwave it because Im a " facist\racist " and there is no immigration problem in the EU

But you right, Sweden faces some real and obvious  immigration challengers and the worse thing about it is if you ignore it  you will see  the rise of right wing political parties who get support from citizens who are not right wing but they not happy with current liberal immigration policies and this directly impacts things like crime 

[Malcador]

When people talk about integration, the fact it's two-way never seems to come up much.  Well that and everything always ends up very anecdotal

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Malcador

[Chilloutman]

25 minutes ago, Malcador said:

When people talk about integration, the fact it's two-way never seems to come up much.  Well that and everything always ends up very anecdotal

 

 

might be, but i have no desire to change my lifestyle to fit someone from other country so its even less appealing in that case

[BruceVC]

39 minutes ago, Malcador said:

When people talk about integration, the fact it's two-way never seems to come up much.  Well that and everything always ends up very anecdotal

 

No its not that, when you immigrate to any  Western country you have to accept the value system of that country but you can still have your own culture and religion, thats why you see so many " little chinas\russia\korea\india\mexico\jamaica " in basically all Western courtiers that are immigration destinations  

[Malcador]

Nope, Armenia post was wrong

Edited September 14, 2022 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

7 hours ago, Pidesco said:

If there are pressures that create large population movements between countries, be it war, climate, crime, or whatever, people are going to move across borders, whether you want them to or not.

It's not even like all the pressures are external. Europe's economic system relies pretty much completely on a constantly expanding population* to service its constantly expanding old age population. Europe also has a lower than replacement birth rate. So you have an increasingly old, ill and non employed population with less taxpayers not just relatively but absolutely to pay for them. You can try and fix that by cutting the benefits to old people (good luck, since they vote unlike the young) or by bringing in more young people to pay taxes, or by increasing tax burden on the remaining taxpayers, or by constantly increasing debt. Practically, and in most places, it's a combination of all those options. If you're bringing people in they're not all going to be doctors and web designers, you need garbage men and sewer cleaners as well.

*only one type of person believes in constant expansion in a finite system: idiots, economists and politicians.

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It's not even like all the pressures are external. Europe's economic system relies pretty much completely on a constantly expanding population* to service its constantly expanding old age population. Europe also has a lower than replacement birth rate. So you have an increasingly old, ill and non employed population with less taxpayers not just relatively but absolutely to pay for them. You can try and fix that by cutting the benefits to old people (good luck, since they vote unlike the young) or by bringing in more young people to pay taxes, or by increasing tax burden on the remaining taxpayers, or by constantly increasing debt. Practically, and in most places, it's a combination of all those options. If you're bringing people in they're not all going to be doctors and web designers, you need garbage men and sewer cleaners as well.

*only one type of person believes in constant expansion in a finite system: idiots, economists and politicians.

Yes its well known and accepted that most countries have a requirement for certain skills and legal immigration addresses that

Thats not the immigration problem that is the problem 

[Chairchucker]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:54 AM, BruceVC said:

Also  you have posted time and time again you think I am a fascist, racist, colonialist  etc.  Irrespective of what I say so why would this matter?

Little bemused at the 'irrespective of what I say' bit. We don't let self reporting determine whether we consider people racist. Donald Trump called himself the 'least racist person he knows' or something along those lines, but also told a bunch of American women of colour to 'go back to their country'. Michael Richards said 'I'm not even racist, that's the crazy thing' soon after going on a tirade in which he repeatedly used the 'n' word, and said that 50 years ago he would've been able to lynch a black man. Sometimes, we've gotta ignore what people say about themselves, when it doesn't match up with what we can observe about their behaviour.

[BruceVC]

32 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Little bemused at the 'irrespective of what I say' bit. We don't let self reporting determine whether we consider people racist. Donald Trump called himself the 'least racist person he knows' or something along those lines, but also told a bunch of American women of colour to 'go back to their country'. Michael Richards said 'I'm not even racist, that's the crazy thing' soon after going on a tirade in which he repeatedly used the 'n' word, and said that 50 years ago he would've been able to lynch a black man. Sometimes, we've gotta ignore what people say about themselves, when it doesn't match up with what we can observe about their behaviour.

I agree, so tell me what makes me a racist\facist?

[xzar_monty]

17 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

might be, but i have no desire to change my lifestyle to fit someone from other country so its even less appealing in that case

It's interesting that we sometimes see a tyranny of the minority in this area, too.

For instance, many muslim immigrants dislike public indoor swimming pools for reasons of religion and their perceived propriety. That's fine: they don't have to go there.

What is not fine is that the pools are sometimes (like, once a week for a number of hours) closed for everyone else so that muslim immigrants can go. This is labeled as "opening the place for muslim immigrants", but of course that is not true. What is true is that they are "closing the place for everyone else". At other times, the place is open for everyone, including muslim immigrants, it's just that they choose not to go. This tyranny of the minority should not be allowed in places that are specifically intended for everyone in the population.

The mathematician N. N. Taleb has pointed out how in many instances it is the least tolerant member/group that gets to rule everyone else. This is not wise.

The kosher phenomenon in food products is fine because it doesn't bar anyone from anything. Namely, some companies make all food kosher because everyone is ok with kosher but a certain group of people is not ok with non-kosher; thus, it is easier to only make kosher food. Nothing wrong with that: nobody is prevented anything.

Edited September 15, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Chilloutman]

well and then imagine that some people thinks that slaughtering animals kosher style is inhumane and should be banned. real conundrum that one

[xzar_monty]

So, a correction is in order here, given what you just said: the products I referred to are not meat products. That's a different discussion.

[Elerond]

8 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

well and then imagine that some people thinks that slaughtering animals kosher style is inhumane and should be banned. real conundrum that one

When done correctly kosher and halal style slaughtering is as humane as is the industrial slaughtering used in most of the slaughterhouses.

Kosher style got bad reputation in early 2000s when it was discovered that many kosher slaughter houses were cutting costs which lead to needles suffering of animals. Most famous case probably was Agriprocessors, that not only perpetrated animal cruelty (Peta's article containing gory videos), but bribed USDA inspectors, used illegal immigrants as slave workforce, deposited its waste to local river, used its power in Jewish community to remove kosher certification form competing slaughter houses and used mafia style intimidation technics drive competitions out from the business.  

[Chairchucker]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I agree, so tell me what makes me a racist\facist?

I haven't really been following the slapfight you've been having with whomever it was, but I'm going to guess it'll be something like 'consistently supporting those in power/the status quo even when they are oppressive.' I was simply suggesting that what you say about whether you are any of those things is largely irrelevant.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

I haven't really been following the slapfight you've been having with whomever it was, but I'm going to guess it'll be something like 'consistently supporting those in power/the status quo even when they are oppressive.' I was simply suggesting that what you say about whether you are any of those things is largely irrelevant.

Really?So the truth doesnt matter and we judge people on what we perceive  and assume .... I am not convinced, its sounds very SJWish to me 

[Azdeus]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:46 PM, Chilloutman said:

I don't know man, most of those policies you mentioned seems ok with me and I am not nazi. I am not against immigration but those migrating in must meet some standards. You can't move Africa to Europe and expect them becoming Europeans. I was in Solentuna. not a place where you go for jogging at night as a girl

this is what I would vote for as well:

lower fuel taxes, remove alot of the green conversion fuel mandates, increase the speed of A-tractors (If you're a Swedish driver, this would probably net you all votes from people living outside the big cities), raise road speeds

Almost every week there is a Swedish Democrat that spits out something clearly racist; About 30% of their elected politicians have been forced to resign after racist statements or actions (The article is behind a paywall ._. ) vast numbers of their politicians are or have been members of organisations like Nordic Resistance, they want to ban halal and kosher food and the list goes on. Their populist voting points are what allows them to be elected. I have friends that live in some of the areas people describe as "muslim gangster" hotspots and the only person that feels afraid is a nutter that has the only apartment in the neighbourhood with metal bars on his windows, both women and men.

On 9/14/2022 at 2:53 PM, xzar_monty said:

Now, this is a noble aim, and I support it. However, there is a fairly big problem, too, namely the fact that a substantial portion of the immigrants have absolutely no desire or inclination to integrate. This is readily apparent for anyone with eyes to see, or with ears to listen to what the immigrants themselves are saying.

What to do about this? To me, Sweden appears as a country whose immigration policies have been abused in a really big way, and Sweden still hasn't woken up to it, at least to the extent that it should.

I don't know about where you get that from, I work in a workplace where 90-99% of the workforce are immigrants, and all that I have spoken to are doing their best to fit in and want to fit in, they want to get better lives than what they had in their previous countries.

8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

It's interesting that we sometimes see a tyranny of the minority in this area, too.

For instance, many muslim immigrants dislike public indoor swimming pools for reasons of religion and their perceived propriety. That's fine: they don't have to go there.

What is not fine is that the pools are sometimes (like, once a week for a number of hours) closed for everyone else so that muslim immigrants can go. This is labeled as "opening the place for muslim immigrants", but of course that is not true. What is true is that they are "closing the place for everyone else". At other times, the place is open for everyone, including muslim immigrants, it's just that they choose not to go. This tyranny of the minority should not be allowed in places that are specifically intended for everyone in the population.

The mathematician N. N. Taleb has pointed out how in many instances it is the least tolerant member/group that gets to rule everyone else. This is not wise.

The kosher phenomenon in food products is fine because it doesn't bar anyone from anything. Namely, some companies make all food kosher because everyone is ok with kosher but a certain group of people is not ok with non-kosher; thus, it is easier to only make kosher food. Nothing wrong with that: nobody is prevented anything.

Better to let them drown you mean? You do realise that those swimming pools have had those womens only bath days before right? Because there are plenty of women that just dont want to go swimming with men, irregardless of their religion. Some of those bath hours/days were set up by womens rights groups and support groups for abuse victims. The discrimination ombudsman has taken a look at it and judged this to be preferable to women not learning to swim at all, though I do agree that we need to work harder on making sure that muslim women are not being opressed. Funny though that Swedish Democrats have opposed efforts to get more muslim women to join the workforce.

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Really?So the truth doesnt matter and we judge people on what we perceive  and assume .... I am not convinced, its sounds very SJWish to me 

It's the internet, nobody knows the real you. The problem is generally that your stated views and opinions often don't align with what you're actually posting. We're all, probably most of us, or at least some of us, human, and we all have our inconsistencies, it's just that yours appear to be fairly consistent. I'm not trying to attack you and I hope you don't see it that way, I'm just trying to explain why you may be viewed that way.

FWIW, I don't think you're racist but I do think you have a lot of biases that you don't seem aware of