The All Things Political Topic - We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office

[Gfted1]

3 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

Netx will they cry about how the banks will lose out on the massive interest profits?

Hmm, the interest rates for student loans are very low. Or do you feel the banks shouldnt make anything on loans?

[Hurlshort]

8 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Hmm, the interest rates for student loans are very low. Or do you feel the banks shouldnt make anything on loans?

The internet tells me they ramge from 4.99-7.54 federally, and 1.29-12.99 privately. That doesn't seem too low. I'd say it should be minimal. 1-2%, enough to cover costs. 90% of the loans are federal, so should the government really profit on young people getting an education?

[xzar_monty]

4 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

The internet tells me they ramge from 4.99-7.54 federally, and 1.29-12.99 privately. That doesn't seem too low. I'd say it should be minimal. 1-2%, enough to cover costs. 90% of the loans are federal, so should the government really profit on young people getting an education?

Probably not a helpful comment, but from a European perspective the whole issue is indicative of a system so effed up it's not even true. And certainly not funny.

To think of the human resources wasted in a system like this is, shall we say, sobering. (The same goes for the lack of universal health care, but there the waste concerns both human resources and anything connected with health, of course.)

[Hurlshort]

Wait until you see our for profit prison system. 

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Hurlshort said:

Wait until you see our for profit prison system. 

Something worth watching, this, seriously, if only for the joke at the end.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Hurlshort said:

I've seen a bunch of people complaining online about the student debt forgiveness. The central theme seems to be concerns that taxpayers are footing the bill.

It sounds like a drop in the bucket to me. Netx will they cry about how the banks will lose out on the massive interest profits? 

 (Some of) The same people complaining got substantially more of their PPP loans forgiven. I guess some bucket drops are different than others.

Now what broke my brain is seeing someone who thinks bachelor degree salaries start at $125k. Man, a **** ton of jobs require a bachelor's just to get in the door and they pay less than half of that. I wish I lived in the fantasy world these clowns imagine.

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, Hurlshort said:

The internet tells me they ramge from 4.99-7.54 federally, and 1.29-12.99 privately. That doesn't seem too low. I'd say it should be minimal. 1-2%, enough to cover costs. 90% of the loans are federal, so should the government really profit on young people getting an education?

Ah, youre quoting the worst case variable, not fixed rates.

Best Student Loans of 2022 | ConsumersAdvocate.org

[Gfted1]

57 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Probably not a helpful comment, but from a European perspective the whole issue is indicative of a system so effed up it's not even true. And certainly not funny.

To think of the human resources wasted in a system like this is, shall we say, sobering. (The same goes for the lack of universal health care, but there the waste concerns both human resources and anything connected with health, of course.)

Youre preaching to the choir here. We need UBI, UHC, UFE and UFH like yesterday!

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, Gfted1 said:

Youre preaching to the choir here.

Fair enough. I just wasn't aware of that.

Edited August 25, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Hurlshort said:

I've seen a bunch of people complaining online about the student debt forgiveness. The central theme seems to be concerns that taxpayers are footing the bill.

It sounds like a drop in the bucket to me. Netx will they cry about how the banks will lose out on the massive interest profits? 

Most of it I see is people who paid off their loans griping at it. For some reason.  Surprised to not see more fear mongering about the Commies though

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

7 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Most of it I see is people who paid off their loans griping at it. For some reason.  Surprised to not see more fear mongering about the Commies though

[alanschu]

2 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

I've seen a bunch of people complaining online about the student debt forgiveness. The central theme seems to be concerns that taxpayers are footing the bill.

It sounds like a drop in the bucket to me. Netx will they cry about how the banks will lose out on the massive interest profits? 

I've become increasingly wary of explicit narratives regarding "taxpayer" since I feel that it's deliberately done in such a way to specifically suggest that you have less say on what happens if we believe you are not a "taxpayer." (i.e. often used to make the case about how dare some "freeloader" benefit completely at expense to you) Which is why the term will be particularly emphasized for something like this.

The interesting thing I learned about your private loan system (Canada got rid of ours, all Student Loans are done with an arrangement between Provincial and Federal governments now) is that interest can start accumulating from day one, while you're still in school. Our system (and I believe your federal subsidized loan system) free interest payments until you are out of school. Ours also has payment/interest suspension if you don't make enough money, though that has its means tested imprecision.

So after 4 years of $10,000 at a 10% interest rate, your balancing owing once you're out of school is about $52,000. You can definitely see how someone that then does 2/4 years of grad school suddenly find themselves in a lot of debt (about $85k/$130k respectively assuming $10k financing holds).

I was able to benefit from Canada's interest rate/payment freeze while I was a contract worker at BioWare (making a whole $12/hr... woo) which I was lucky enough to flip into a permanent position getting paid $55k after a year. If I had had that $52k of debt and had another year of interest, it'd be about $57k. Luckily I only had $30k in debt and the interest was frozen in that time. I paid it off in about 10 years (very nice having that extra payment per month!).

Fortunately, though, I'm now at a point where I'll pay well over $57k a year in taxes. In general I suspect I'll be a net "giver" for some time (ideally I'm always a net giver, personally. I prefer to avoid social assistance as much as I can as it means others will be able to benefit from it. We'll see if I get up into my 80s or 90s though. The reality of living longer and the costs of health care is a big reason why I still advocated for a well funded public health care system even when I was still very conservative since it's tricky to know. But hopefully I'll have enough saved up to be comfortable! (Weird to think I'm half way there now!)

[alanschu]

1 hour ago, KP From Another World said:

(Some of) The same people complaining got substantially more of their PPP loans forgiven. I guess some bucket drops are different than others.

I've seen people straight up excuse it because at least those were for "creating jobs" or some such. I'm a bit dubious, but it's also why I advocated for any supports to be delivered to individuals moreso than businesses. More guarantee that supports would go to people (including business owners) to help during a particularly unusual circumstance of time.

1 hour ago, KP From Another World said:

Now what broke my brain is seeing someone who thinks bachelor degree salaries start at $125k. Man, a **** ton of jobs require a bachelor's just to get in the door and they pay less than half of that. I wish I lived in the fantasy world these clowns imagine

Part of me thinks that this is a symptom of people that still think that tuition is what it was in the past as well. And also coming to terms with the reality that adjusting for inflation, $50k in 1990 would be $115k today. Median incomes from 1990 ($54k) have not matched that at all ($69k in 2019 pre-Covid). Incomes really took a hit following 2008, but were growing steadily at least since 2015... but still well behind inflation. I'm curious the degree of income inequality, but I remember having my mind blown that if you define "middle" class as the second, middle, and forth quintile of incomes, in Alberta that would mean a household (typically two incomes) income for $330k (!!!!) would still qualify as "middle class." Even though the median household income was about $90k.

I think it's why it led to some comedy such as Wall Street journal breaking down Obama's tax policy with this definitely-representative-of-the-people infographic:

 

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Ah, youre quoting the worst case variable, not fixed rates.

The link I had showed his numbers to be the fixed rates (usually worst case fixed rates are typically higher than worst case variable rates as well, short of interest rates just ballooning while the loan is active). https://www.nerdwallet.com/best/loans/student-loans/private-student-loans

This states that the median fixed interest rate is 7.81% https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/thinking-about-taking-out-a-private-student-loan-these-are-the-latest-rates-01661270551

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Most of it I see is people who paid off their loans griping at it. For some reason.

I see a lot of people stating it'd be unfair. I'm curious how the actual breakdown is, as there is a lot of people (including me) pushing back on the sentiment. I think it's a convenient angle to utilize if you want to advocate against it, but hard to tell what is truth and embellishment on the Internet.

Edited August 25, 2022 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

The internet tells me they ramge from 4.99-7.54 federally, and 1.29-12.99 privately. That doesn't seem too low. I'd say it should be minimal. 1-2%, enough to cover costs. 90% of the loans are federal, so should the government really profit on young people getting an education?

Education loans should only be structured with low interest rates if students pass first time or pass at all

If the US education loan system is anything like SA its a disaster, we have some students at university for 4-6 years failing constantly and refusing to leave taking full advantage of the student loan system and preventing deserving students ,who will study,  from participating 

 

[Chairchucker]

Education should be free.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Education should be free.

University education? It shouldnt be free if students abuse it and arent committed to complete there degree  because most countries will have limited spaces at universities and you dont want someone wasting state  resources if they lack the real interest and discipline 

[Amentep]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Education loans should only be structured with low interest rates if students pass first time or pass at all

If the US education loan system is anything like SA its a disaster, we have some students at university for 4-6 years failing constantly and refusing to leave taking full advantage of the student loan system and preventing deserving students ,who will study,  from participating 

With a lot of schools in the US (if not most or all) won't allow you to get financial assistance if you're not meeting progression goals of some kind.  Most loan offerers here aren't going to continue loaning money to someone who with each failed class is less likely to graduate, thus less likely to get a job that would allow them to pay the loan back.

13 hours ago, alanschu said:

I see a lot of people stating it'd be unfair. I'm curious how the actual breakdown is, as there is a lot of people (including me) pushing back on the sentiment. I think it's a convenient angle to utilize if you want to advocate against it, but hard to tell what is truth and embellishment on the Internet.

Pretty much any assistance that doesn't go to everyone could be deemed by someone to be unfair.  Its a specious argument.

[BruceVC]

11 minutes ago, Amentep said:

With a lot of schools in the US (if not most or all) won't allow you to get financial assistance if you're not meeting progression goals of some kind.  Most loan offerers here aren't going to continue loaning money to someone who with each failed class is less likely to graduate, thus less likely to get a job that would allow them to pay the loan back.

 

They need to do the same thing in SA, its the only way to ensure the system isnt abused 

So in the US I assume the loans would be provided for year 1 and if a student is failing they have to  leave at the end of year 1? If so do they need to pay pack the year 1 loan?

[Elerond]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

University education? It shouldnt be free if students abuse it and arent committed to complete there degree  because most countries will have limited spaces at universities and you dont want someone wasting state  resources if they lack the real interest and discipline 

University education should be free, because students learn best when they focus solely in studying instead trying to joggle work and studying. Living for students is already expensive even without needing to pay for education. Educated people are benefit for whole nation.

Universities should pick their students by their academic merit and nothing else. People who have been good students in elementary and high school, have ability complete university. If students don't have real interest and discipline they don't really spend any resources as they don't participate in the education. Universities should follow progress of their students and have counselors to help students to over come their difficulties.  

To be fair: I personally benefited of Finland's free education from preschool to university education and study grant from government for living expense. as I come from working class family with 4 kids where only one of the parents had job, so we didn't have much money to spent, but me and all my siblings were still able to get university education and high paying white collar job.

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Elerond said:

University education should be free, because students learn best when they focus solely in studying instead trying to joggle work and studying. Living for students is already expensive even without needing to pay for education. Educated people are benefit for whole nation.

Universities should pick their students by their academic merit and nothing else. People who have been good students in elementary and high school, have ability complete university. If students don't have real interest and discipline they don't really spend any resources as they don't participate in the education. Universities should follow progress of their students and have counselors to help students to over come their difficulties.  

To be fair: I personally benefited of Finland's free education from preschool to university education and study grant from government for living expense. as I come from working class family with 4 kids where only one of the parents had job, so we didn't have much money to spent, but me and all my siblings were still able to get university education and high paying white collar job.

So what happens in Finland if university students are failing a particular course in year 1? Dont you have students who fail and dropout and then what happens to the education loan from the state, is that written off?

[Elerond]

15 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

So what happens in Finland if university students are failing a particular course in year 1? Dont you have students who fail and dropout and then what happens to the education loan from the state, is that written off?

They will do it again either same year or next depending of if course is organized multiple times in year or only once. 

It is grant not loan (268.23€ per month plus 80% of their rent, although there is cap that depends on city where you live). Additionally government gives guarantee for low interest loan (interest rate is 0-1% depending on bank, max amount is 18000€ in five years). Half of loan is written off if student graduates in time. So if student takes loan and does not graduate they will pay that loan back in 10-15 years depending of their plan with their bank. 

Government grant is for five years (in master programs)  and universities kick students out after 10 years if they don't show progress in their studies. Student needs to pay back their grant money if they don't get enough study credits (30 credit points, so about 800 hours worth of credits) during a year.

[Chairchucker]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

University education? It shouldnt be free if students abuse it and arent committed to complete there degree  because most countries will have limited spaces at universities and you dont want someone wasting state  resources if they lack the real interest and discipline 

I couldn't care less if it's being abused. I doubt it's any significant amount, the majority would probs prefer not to waste their time on a degree they don't want. The whole country is improved if its population is educated. More qualified people, more doctors, etc.

[Chilloutman]

are you kidding? there is now whole swat of people with useless education because they just wanted easy degree to look more smart or get better job position

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

University education? It shouldnt be free if students abuse it and arent committed to complete there degree  because most countries will have limited spaces at universities and you dont want someone wasting state  resources if they lack the real interest and discipline 

Ok, so then make it free but have a minimum requirement for it to be so.  

[Chairchucker]

8 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

are you kidding? there is now whole swat of people with useless education because they just wanted easy degree to look more smart or get better job position

Education isn't useless. I want more educated people in my country, not fewer.