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The All Things Political Topic - Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.


Gfted1

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Political debate (edit: or whatever ūüėČ) continued from here...

 

‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein
 

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3 hours ago, Amentep said:

 

two quick points.

first, our problem with the J. alito opinion is the history & tradition approach taken. a genuine textualist approach considers history but only in the context o' revealing the plain meaning o' the words o' legislation or laws as written at the time they were authored. a history and tradition analysis to legitimize conservative favoured substantive due process claims is therefore suspect from a textualist pov. which history means more anyways? previous to roe, there were indeed considerable history which would show a tendency to criminalize abortion. however, the s'posed justification for roe itself were the changing values o' american society as a whole which had shifted in favour o' a recognition o' a woman's right to self determination in matters o' medical treatments. since roe, the weight o' traditions has clear shifted even further such that today most polls show support o' some kinda abortion protection anywhere between seventy and eighty percent in favour o' maintaining roe. we now got fifty years o' tradition and history which appear to show a trend towards support o' a right to abortion.

J. Gorsuch authored the recent obergefell v. hodges case... which we criticized. J. Gorsuch in obergefell observed the shift in societal values and opinions regarding same-sex marriage as validation for the granting o' a fundamental right to same-sex marriage. we observed how such an analysis were far too touchy-feely for The Court and that such an analysis were in fact the kinda policy choice Congress were meant to indulge. furthermore, support for same-sex marriage, even post obergefell,¬†is 'ccording to most polls less pronounced than is the support for a pregnant woman seeking an abortion. regardless, the so-not-a-textualist-approach taken by J. Gorsuch in obergefell were criticized by J. alito as a violation o' textualist principles. says alito, ‚ÄúThe Court‚Äôs opinion is like a pirate ship. it sails under a textualist flag, but what it actually represents is a theory of statutory interpretation that Justice Scalia excoriated‚ÄĒthe theory that courts should ‚Äėupdate‚Äô old statutes so that they better reflect the current value of society.‚ÄĚ 'course the alito draft opinion similar undermines a textualist approach but instead replaces modern societal values with history and tradition as the guide. as such alito's criticism o' obergefell,¬†while valid, is more than a little hypocritical.¬†

whatever. obergefell and the alito draft opinion, along with the first amendment cross case we mentioned earlier, reveal a new trend in the Court away from textualism as J. Scalia woulda' described in favour o' a highly subjective interpretations o' law. the so-called conservatives o' The Court has since the death o' J. Scalia become reactionary activists, a most disturbing trend as judicial restraint were previous considered the purview o' the conservatives. even if you didn't like conservative values, a so-called conservative Justice were less dangerous 'cause he/she would be less likely to make law as 'posed to limiting their efforts to interpretation o' law. unfortunate, if the alito draft opinion stands as has been leaked, then it might be time to give textualism a viking funeral. 

second, individuals receiving Presidential nomination to SCOTUS observing roe is settled law is meaningless. plessy v. ferguson were indeed settled law... up until brown v. board of education. is many examples o' The Court overturning precedent and in each case the Justices is rejecting established jurisprudence in favour o' a new rule o' law. am having no idea what were stated by SCOTUS nominees in private meetings with Congressmen, but am unable to recall any hearings in which Gorsuch, Kavanaugh or ACB  stated unequivocal that they saw roe precedent as inviolable. 

and speaking o' precedent, am gonna observe how one year removed from the leak o' the alito draft, we observed how justice thomas were telegraphing his willingness to overturn roe, and alito had done similar laying o' groundwork if a bit less overt. 

...

well, not so quick points after all, but what were you expecting from a Gromnir response, eh?

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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7 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

They were simply the friendlies civilians that I ever encountered overseas. Most US ports of call are set up specifically for pleasure and separating us from the almighty Dollar (seriously, the exchange rate at that time was ludicrously in our favor.) Chile was different in that a US naval vessel hadnt been there in YEARS so the locals were excited to see us. They were lining the docks and cheering for every liberty boat that pulled up, when they noticed us struggling with Spanish they would go out of their way to translate for us, the women couldnt wait to approach us at the clubs. Its the one and only country that I took a tour while I was there. We hiked up some mountain (Andes?) and then white water rafted down. Good times. :yes:

@Amentep Do you have the crying meme from BIS?

Those were definitely the good old days when locals came out happily to greet the US Navy ....another thing liberals and the left has destroyed :p

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Those were definitely the good old days when locals came out happily to greet the US Navy ....another thing liberals and the left has destroyed :p

How did they do that?

 

‚ÄúHe who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.‚ÄĚ - Albert Einstein
 

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6 hours ago, Gorth said:

How did they do that?

 

Its a joke Gorthfuscious, remember when  we use to laugh sometimes :p

The reason that doesnt happen anymore has got nothing to do with liberals or the left ( this is not one  of those valid things we can blame them for like violent protests being allowed  ) Its mainly because the global security situation has changed and I doubt US NAVY would feel safe with dozens of people waiting to high-five  them at the docks when they disembark 

Also geopolitical conflicts like  the War on Terror are  a serious thing and the arrival of a US Navy ship wont necessarily create happiness and may even make people feel anxious 

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

It really was a different world just 30 years ago.

@BruceVC Youre in your 30's?

No, Im 47 

 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

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3 minutes ago, KP wants Blue Velvet said:

Hey, it's not like women and children vote. They are safe targets.

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Gov. Greg Abbott said Wednesday that Texas would consider challenging a 1982 U.S. Supreme Court decision requiring states to offer free public education to all children, including those of undocumented immigrants.

Well, guess that's clear what their aim is. 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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10 minutes ago, Malcador said:

 

 

Well, guess that's clear what their aim is. 

Its to stop and deter illegal immigration, we passing similar new laws in SA about renewal of visas and taking other actions like deporting illegal foreigners (thats what they known as in SA ) but its a little too late in SA 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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if folks is seeing a new trend, they ain't been paying attention to our shadow docket posts.

is also multiple affirmative action and admission policy cases related to public education which if you do searches you will realize has already been decided or is current up for review. bakke, gratz v. bollinger, and grutter v. bollinger would appear to be the next education precedents on this Courts' chopping bloc. 

keep in mind, bakke were a decision which rejected racial quotas specific, but it upheld affirmative action policies in general. were a plurality much like roe which makes it ripe for overturn. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps is a short-term memory loss thing happening as well regarding The Court. please recall the two nightmares mentioned most frequent during the ACB hearings were the prospect o' roe being overturned but also (and more significant) the ACA being declared unconstitutional. is possible the ACA might be killed in the future, but the fear were an immediate disillusion ACA as the result o' a case which were projected to soon be before SCOTUS.

and for those who so quick forgot...

The Health 202: ACB helped save the ACA after all

these issues is often not as portrayed.

but regardless, is worth doing a search o' shadow docket shenanigans by this Court via your favorite search engine. the so-called conservatives has been kneecapping fundamental rights cases for a while now and such efforts has been garnering shocking little press 'cause few in the media understand the significance o' the shadow docket. 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, Hurlsnot said:

Hey, it's not like women and children vote. They are safe targets.

I guess this is one way of handling the teacher shortage. By now it shouldn't be a surprise that the Texas government would do so in the stupidest way possible, but here I am shocked.

56 minutes ago, Malcador said:

 

 

Well, guess that's clear what their aim is. 

There's been a weird right-wing push for private schools and home schooling, I'd say this is pushing for that under the guise of brown people bad....but the same folks who brown people bad appeals to are mostly already in the anti-public school crowd.

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

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I had to share their these two funny and true stories 

A man in SA has been sent to jail for 8 years for having sex with a dog, its classified as bestiality and animal abuse. Someone phones in on a talk show and honestly asks " but how do we know it wasnt consensual "   

My SA family is starting to travel internationally again, I cant wait to go to London again. None of us have travelled internationally for over  2 years because of the lockdowns. My stepmom was at the airport last night and she said all the Chinese people flying back to China are wearing full Hazmat suits :grin: Can you imagine having to walk around and fly on a plane in a full Hazmat suit. Only the CCP would demand that kind of virus  protection 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss‚ÄĚ

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The Politics of Overturning Roe Are Bad for Republicans

"On Tuesday, at a Republican press conference, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell was asked three times about the big story of the week: A draft Supreme Court opinion, leaked to Politico, that exposed the Court’s intention to overturn Roe v. Wade. McConnell was furious about the leak. But each time reporters asked him to talk about abortion, he refused to engage.

"Morally, this reticence seems bizarre. For half a century, Republicans have campaigned on promises to expunge Roe. They said millions of unborn lives were at stake. Now victory is at hand, but McConnell won’t talk about it. Why not?

"The answer is simple: He knows this issue is bad for his party. Roe infuriated pro-life Americans and made pro-choice Americans complacent. Republican candidates could use the issue to rile up their base without risking an electoral backlash. But if Roe goes down, Americans who want to keep abortion legal will have to vote that way. And those Americans are a political majority."

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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23 minutes ago, KP wants Blue Velvet said:

There's been a weird right-wing push for private schools and home schooling, I'd say this is pushing for that under the guise of brown people bad....but the same folks who brown people bad appeals to are mostly already in the anti-public school crowd.

There's been, for years, a libertarian part of the Republican party that seem to want to demonize any federal or state government agency (Post office, schools), presumably in the hope that they can completely privatize these functions so that they are done by magical loving corporations who will lovingly provide loving services to all people regardless of financial bottom lines and costs out of the kindness of their heart and everything will be flowers and love.

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I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man

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6 minutes ago, Amentep said:

There's been, for years, a libertarian part of the Republican party that seem to want to demonize any federal or state government agency (Post office, schools), presumably in the hope that they can completely privatize these functions so that they are done by magical loving corporations who will lovingly provide loving services to all people regardless of financial bottom lines and costs out of the kindness of their heart and everything will be flowers and love.

I'm aware of that, there was even a town here in Texas that tried it and imploded. Funny how the biggest stans of the free market seem to be the ones who understand it the least. I don't think they're the only ones behind defending the (public) schools, and that the weirdo (and almost entirely white) christians are the bigger players within the Republicans on this particular issue. They've not only got more sway presently, but have a history of opposition to public schools ranging from nominally secular requirements to opposing integration.

Here is an old article that goes over who I'm talking about: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/

As an aside, I think the libertarian wing of the Republican party has been wholly subsumed, often willingly, and is marginal at best to Republican policy.

  • Like 1

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

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I'm not sure that they're gone entirely - Trump's Post Master General certainly seemed to be operating under orders to (once again) attempt to destroy the Post Office.  And the whole Charter School movement has seemed to be an attempt to meld companies and education in a different way than private schools.

But you are right, a lot of the religious right hate public schools because they're not teaching about God to the kids, so they must be teaching Satanism or, worse, Atheism.

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I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man

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47 minutes ago, Amentep said:

I'm not sure that they're gone entirely - Trump's Post Master General certainly seemed to be operating under orders to (once again) attempt to destroy the Post Office.  And the whole Charter School movement has seemed to be an attempt to meld companies and education in a different way than private schools.

But you are right, a lot of the religious right hate public schools because they're not teaching about God to the kids, so they must be teaching Satanism or, worse, Atheism.

It depends on what you mean by gone. I think a lot of them are still around, but I also think they have changed (some of) their positions out of opportunism. For example, a lot of the free market or bust folks did a heel turn and started wanting social media to get regulated or even put under state control because someone got banned, we even saw that here on this tiny corner of the internet. So now I find myself, someone who is decidedly not fond the lazy fairy mindset regarding businesses, in the strange position of defending billion dollar corporations from being regulated from guys who were approvingly quoting Hayek less than a decade ago. Truly wild ****.

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"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

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is some curious conflating o' the religious right and libertarians going on here which is odd. regardless, none o' these groups is monolithic or homogenized, although evangelicals is arguable one o' the more polarized/radicalized voting groups, which is precise why the gop caters to their demands. is perhaps unfair to him, but guard dog is a useful example o' the libertarian who embraces alt-right radio talking points and conspiracies, but am doubting many is gonna suggest his opinions is motivated by a fear o' brown people. am also doubtful gd sees himself as a poster child for the religious right values. the libertarian ideology is most often linked to a distrust o' government, which is a quality shared by the minorities some is suggesting is the real target o' libertarian angst.

the above linked politico piece which seeks to describe the origins o' the religious right does indeed mention those catholics who were opposed to roe, but curious dismisses their significance, as if those folks disappeared. catholics voted democrat overwhelming until roe and even post roe it took a few years to see serious changes in voting patterns in part 'cause it were only catholic women who appeared invested in the abortion issue. took a while for catholic men to take their wives, sisters and daughters serious? please note, as o' 2014, same year as the politico article linked, catholic represented 20.8% o' the US population, and evangelical christians accounted for 25.4%. the thing is ~50% o' catholics were able to look past abortion and vote for biden instead o' trump. better than 75% o' evangelicals voted for trump in 2020... though that were actual down from better than 80% in 2016. 

we also posted a link to a rolling stone article in this thread, a few times, which sought to explain evangelical support o' trump. is ez to forget how evangelicals were part o' the dissatisfied working class americans who helped get obama elected 'cause while they likely were harboring the kinda mundane bigotry so prevalent 'mongst americans, those folks were even more angry with those they perceived as traditional politicians. the thing which kinda shocked us 'bout the rolling stone piece were that the evangelicals mighta' been in denial regarding their racial biases, but they were quite vocal and forceful 'bout the affront they took at the rainbow flag and what it stood for.  obama were acceptable until he started defending lgbt... well that and 'cause like minorities, working class americans were facing the pain o' protracted income disparity issues which had been growing unchecked through multiple Presidential administrations (republican and democrat) since the clinton years. 

is too ez to look at a group as monolithic. is a mistake. 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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1 hour ago, Amentep said:

There's been, for years, a libertarian part of the Republican party that seem to want to demonize any federal or state government agency (Post office, schools), presumably in the hope that they can completely privatize these functions so that they are done by magical loving corporations who will lovingly provide loving services to all people regardless of financial bottom lines and costs out of the kindness of their heart and everything will be flowers and love.

I think there's a practical assessment as well in terms of having more direct say in how/where their money is used and to specifically make sure their kiddos get the maximum benefit. But yeah, there's a hefty belief in the idea that private must mean more efficient/effective (anyone that remembers me from years past on this forum knows it was a position a lean in support of as well, though no realize isn't the always true axiom I once thought it was).

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For the amusement value in the cheap seats, I did see this:

 

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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I'm enjoying all of the "This doesn't make abortion illegal. It just means it's up to the states as it should be. This doesn't change anything."

Just this idea of "I'm so committed to the overturn of this ruling, so that ultimately nothing will change" is so laughably disingenuous hahaha.

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21 hours ago, Amentep said:

@majesticI think your post was where I got mine from, but I couldn't remember what was in the zip file any more.

I was thinking 1 was missing but I don't remember what one (and my memory may be lying).

There was an image of an old man wearing a gray hat captioned "WUT?" that got used often, but I'm not sure if that ever was an actual BISIMG or just something else that came up.

No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering.

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