Ukraine Conflict - Alle Dinge unterliegen Interpretation je nachdem, was Interpretation zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt herrscht, ist eine Funktion der Macht und nicht die Wahrheit

[Mamoulian War]

OMFG... Kherson airport for the 17th time...

 

And Ukraine will get finally some aircraft...

And long range Artillery...

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Malcador]

I guess the lesson is to retreat once you're in artillery range.

[xzar_monty]

11 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Saw this myself in wire service reports. Blatant violation of the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of people under your occupation.

In most contexts, the words "blatant violation" would carry weight. But here, no. Russia has no regard for anything it has agreed upon. And yes, that this is so is, shall we say, a disappointment.

[Mamoulian War]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

I guess the lesson is to retreat once you're in artillery range.

Apparently not for Russia

[pmp10]

21 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

And Ukraine will get finally some aircraft...

So, about that.

And here I thought Scholz was being obtuse today. 

[Zoraptor]

I do wonder if the Japanese would have had similar headlines in 1942 as to Kherson had twitter/ youtube existed. Probably yes; we'd have had "Henderson Field on fire again, Guadalcanal to fall imminently, when will those stupid Gaijin learn?" for like 9 months.

7 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Whats really surprised me about the Russian tanks is the seeming ineffectiveness of the explosive reactive armor panels. I honestly thought they would do a better job defeating ATGM's.

They have to be the right type of Explosive Reactive, and they have to be where the atgm hits. As Gorth mentioned NLAWs (and Javelins) do top down attack, and you can't put ER over the whole top (turret) of your tank as you've got hatches etc. T-14 is meant to have that fixed though, as the turret is unmanned. There have been some other ad hoc defences tried, like cages you sometimes see added, but they don't seem to be very effective.

You also need updated ER for modern atgms with tandem warheads. The first warhead on a tandem atgm sets off the ER, then the second works pretty much as if the ER didn't exist. The blocks on the destroyed tank above are kontakt-1, which is old. The Russians have at least three more effective blocks (Kontakt-5, Relikt and Malachit) that can defeat tandem warheads. They look like big slabs rather than small blocks.

There's also no point in stealing ER, it isn't worth anything. Far more likely any tanks missing blocks had them fall off in action or had them cannibalised to replace missing blocks on active tanks.

6 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Also, the lethality of the Turkish drones blows my mind. If ours perform at an equivalent or better level, I could take over the world with a swarm of 5000.  Hell, send 200 against a carrier and punch a bunch of little holes all over it. THOR is going to be a game changer though.

Eh, Bayraktars have done pretty much nothing verifiable in Ukraine.

A lot of stuff is attributed to them by their horde of fanboys, but in pretty much every single case it's turned out to be something else that was actually used.

[rjshae]

Russian Tanks Massing Near Ukraine Sport Mods Against Drones, Javelin Missiles

Quote

...

However, both the Javelin and MAM-L incorporate two-stage tandem warheads designed to defeat spaced and reactive armor; and unlike anti-tank munitions like the ubiquitous RPG-7, their fuses are situated toward the rear rather than the tip of the missile.

 

[213374U]

8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

For the psychologically inclined, this is an excellent study in cognitive dissonance. Also, madness.

Or... it could be you going off a bunch of preconceptions, media takes and non sequiturs.

There's this weird outlook that's getting more and more pervasive that simply because one disagrees with or can't understand someone else's perspective, that perspective must be irrational, insane, illogical, or w/e. It's a convenient way to avoid considering the ramifications of the beliefs held by oneself -- indeed, it bypasses any self-reflection whatsoever. I wonder what the psychologically inclined would say about that, hmm?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

49 minutes ago, 213374U said:

There's this weird outlook that's getting more and more pervasive that simply because one disagrees with or can't understand someone else's perspective, that perspective must be irrational, insane, illogical, or w/e.

That's crazy talk.

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, 213374U said:

There's this weird outlook that's getting more and more pervasive that simply because one disagrees with or can't understand someone else's perspective, that perspective must be irrational, insane, illogical, or w/e.

I gave four examples of how the Russian position is internally inconsistent and illogical in relation to what Russia or its representatives have said themselves.

Additionally, I think it's fairly hard to come up with charitable interpretation of a position which allows and even encourages whosale slaughter of civilians. For me, anyway. That's the bottom line: Russia has attacked a sovereign country and kills civilians night and day. Justifying that perspective, to use your word, is hard, even if Ukraine is, for example, rather a long way away from qualifying into the EU because of its various internal problems.

Your point, as a general point, does have validity and is seen rather a lot in American politics, for example, i.e. in how many Democrats and Republicans perceive and comment upon the view of the opposing party. That's a given. But applying that point to this specific instance does look rather inappropriate. Because, for example, both fearmongering about the threat of NATO and at the same time emptying your western front for NATO to walk in is, indeed, illogical. As is both disdaining the west and sending your children there.

[xzar_monty]

Grim stories abound in Russia.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/putin-ally-pregnant-wife-daughter-found-dead-luxury-home-234722486.html

[Gorth]

In the twenty first century, there is only special military operations...

 

continued from previous thread

 

[Mamoulian War]

16 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I do wonder if the Japanese would have had similar headlines in 1942 as to Kherson had twitter/ youtube existed. Probably yes; we'd have had "Henderson Field on fire again, Guadalcanal to fall imminently, when will those stupid Gaijin learn?" for like 9 months.

 

Eh, Bayraktars have done pretty much nothing verifiable in Ukraine.

A lot of stuff is attributed to them by their horde of fanboys, but in pretty much every single case it's turned out to be something else that was actually used.

Well, take it or not, so far it works. Russian put army supplies and technic there, got killed and destroyed. Ukrainians release new meme, wait for few days, rinse and repeat. They don't need ever try hard to go after them, like the joint operation guys at Donbas, they just wait. Will it have any significant outcome for the outgoing war? Probably not, but anything counts when fighting against overwhelming odds... Especially, when this happens without any casualties on the defenders side...

As for Bayraktars, I've seen some videos of them directly dropping bombs overhead of tanks and MRLS, but from what I understand, it is just an additional perk of the system. The fact is, Russia is unable to detect them most of the time, and then only one Bayraktar helps to eliminate dozens units of vehicles in a single night. Like this one. (pretty long video, but it shows, how Ukraine is utilizing them in the first place - these are pictures from Lelek UAV.) Feel free to skip the first mobile artillery shooting, the reconnaissance and action part starts after that.

 

Also, it looks like that Russia is not paying their contractors, and they start to rebel.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, 213374U said:

Or... it could be you going off a bunch of preconceptions, media takes and non sequiturs.

 

No, its nothing like that. Thanks for the suggestion but Monty is right. Putins war is madness  and the media commentary from Russia is pure propaganda from Putin and it is irrational, inconsistent, illogical, spurious and  hyperbolic and it must be rejected with the contempt it deserves 

[Mamoulian War]

...

 

[213374U]

15 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I gave four examples of how the Russian position is internally inconsistent and illogical in relation to what Russia or its representatives have said themselves.

Not really. You gave four examples of what you think the Russian position is. Or what the media says the Russian position is. Or... what the Soviet Union's position was. Anything that doesn't fit with that is either ignored -a few articles deviating from the mainstream narrative in this thread- or flat out rejected because by definition nothing Russians say is true, while any "report" from a Twitter account with a Ukrainian flag in the handle is worth reposting.

You've made a choice to believe a certain version of facts. That's your prerogative, but painting anyone disagreeing with that version as insane strikes me as... dogmatic, to put it mildly.

I mean, I'm sure y'all are familiar with the old adage, "in war, truth is the first casualty". We shouldn't believe that "OSINT" sources have made that saying obsolete, heh.

Edited April 20, 2022 by 213374U

[Malcador]

Ukraine ready for Mariupol talks 'without conditions' - negotiator

Probably won't go for it.

[Zoraptor]

Probably the best evidence you could get that they're close to imminent defeat in Mariupol.

If they're going to lose imminently anyway holding negotiations even if you actually aren't going to concede anything gives you extra time for free. Also kind of telling that they've gone from an "evacuation via a 3rd party guarantor on the ground" baseline to "talks without conditions" in a day. I guess they have to be able to say that they tried to save them, given the propaganda interviews Russia has been holding with pows where the constant theme was how the government continually promised to help/ rescue them and nothing eventuated.

Realistically they aren't even tying down that many troops any more, since the perimeter has reduced ~80% over the last ~week; and the Russians aren't going to accept anything other than unconditional surrender which could be ordered without any negotiations. Might not be obeyed, but they could order it.

[ShadySands]

20 hours ago, 213374U said:

Or... it could be you going off a bunch of preconceptions, media takes and non sequiturs.

There's this weird outlook that's getting more and more pervasive that simply because one disagrees with or can't understand someone else's perspective, that perspective must be irrational, insane, illogical, or w/e. It's a convenient way to avoid considering the ramifications of the beliefs held by oneself -- indeed, it bypasses any self-reflection whatsoever. I wonder what the psychologically inclined would say about that, hmm?

I generally agree with this but that totally represents my in-laws in Russia... though if it must be said, I cannot say whether those same sentiments are as widely held by the majority of Russians. 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, 213374U said:

Not really. You gave four examples of what you think the Russian position is. Or what the media says the Russian position is. Or... what the Soviet Union's position was. Anything that doesn't fit with that is either ignored -a few articles deviating from the mainstream narrative in this thread- or flat out rejected because by definition nothing Russians say is true, while any "report" from a Twitter account with a Ukrainian flag in the handle is worth reposting.

You've made a choice to believe a certain version of facts. That's your prerogative, but painting anyone disagreeing with that version as insane strikes me as... dogmatic, to put it mildly.

I mean, I'm sure y'all are familiar with the old adage, "in war, truth is the first casualty". We shouldn't believe that "OSINT" sources have made that saying obsolete, heh.

It really sounds like you defending the Russian media updates as  possibly  credible and or truthful?

And it sounds like you suggesting their is a Russian perspective where Putin didnt lie to the world and didnt invade Ukraine? What exact " version of facts " should we be believing?

I realize you never respond to my posts but this week after ignoring me for at least 18-24 months you responded to a post I made to tell me I was wrong about something so I hope you can muster that same herculean effort to answer the question " what truth should we be reading and believing " ?

Edited April 21, 2022 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

9 hours ago, 213374U said:

Not really. You gave four examples of what you think the Russian position is. Or what the media says the Russian position is. Or... what the Soviet Union's position was. Anything that doesn't fit with that is either ignored -a few articles deviating from the mainstream narrative in this thread- or flat out rejected because by definition nothing Russians say is true, while any "report" from a Twitter account with a Ukrainian flag in the handle is worth reposting.

You've made a choice to believe a certain version of facts. That's your prerogative, but painting anyone disagreeing with that version as insane strikes me as... dogmatic, to put it mildly.

I mean, I'm sure y'all are familiar with the old adage, "in war, truth is the first casualty". We shouldn't believe that "OSINT" sources have made that saying obsolete, heh.

I have not ignored anything, nor have I flat out rejected anything. I have also made it very clear that much of what I have posted cannot be regarded as confirmed -- just go back and check. At this point, I question your ability to read.

I can't see any point in responding to you any further, as your tone continues to be both surprisingly hostile and very inappropriate. If this was a real-life situation (i.e. you being in an administrative position in a shop or something, like you are a moderator here), I'd have a chat with your boss. Here, there is no such option.

Edited April 21, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Probably the best evidence you could get that they're close to imminent defeat in Mariupol.

At this point, the talk of "imminent defeat" appears both very grim and somewhat humorous, as we've had it going on for a while already. However, this time you're quite probably right. (I am fairly ignorant of military strategy, and you at least appear to know a heck of a lot more about it than I do.)

Edited April 21, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

28 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

At this point, the talk of "imminent defeat" appears both very grim and somewhat humorous, as we've had it going on for a while already. However, this time you're quite probably right. (I am fairly ignorant of military strategy, and you at least appear to know a heck of a lot more about than I do.)

Yes the defeat of the valiant defenders in Mariupol is definitely imminent. The city has been basically bombed to the ground and supplies are limited

Many of the Ukrainian military in Mariupol are prepared to fight to the end and make a last stand. Its brave and tragic but I think they not surrendering  because its a form symbolism and being opposed to Putins War

History will remember people like the defenders of Mariupol and when Putins War is over I guarantee you a  statue will be erected to honor them. And a movie\movies should be made ..........in  fact several movies about Putins War will be made 

 

 

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Many of the Ukrainian military in Mariupol are prepared to fight to the end and make a last stand. Its brave and tragic but I think they not surrendering  because its a form symbolism and being opposed to Putins War

Also, given how Putin's army has behaved in the war so far, it is probably better to die in battle than be taken prisoner. In the first instance, death is more likely to be quick and perhaps even completely painless, whereas the latter may be extremely painful and humiliating and take a lot of time, after which you also die.

Russia has ratified the Geneva Conventions but does not care for them. This is just one example of the international treaties it has broken in this war, which is, yet again, more proof of its lack of truthfulness. A country very much not to be trusted.

By the way, parts of Russia's behaviour are simply astonishing. The country is behaving like a spoiled child, or something. To give a very recent example: Russia has pointed out that if Finland and Sweden join NATO, there will be consequences and they most definitely should not do it. Now, at this point, a reasonable outside observer might say: Finland and Sweden are sovereign countries, from which it logically follows that whatever Finland and Sweden do (that is in accordance with international law) is absolutely frigging none of Russia's business, so shut up. It appears impossible for Russia to understand or accept this.

[Lexx]

I'm actually surprised that the remnants in the steel factory still have (or had) food and water left after so much time. The way I understood it, there must be at least ~1k people. Try getting rations for so many people if you are surrounded.