Questions about single class barbarian

[Frak_the_2nd]

It's been a while, but I'm back. I'm gonna beat this game! Restartistis be buggered! Path of the Damned and upscale all the way, every day!

I do have some questions about single class barbarian. I'm a purist, so forget everything about enticing me with multiclassing on my first run.

1) "Threatening Presence"? How does that work with upscaled enemies? Does it compare to the bestiary level or is it useless when you have upscaled enemies in the difficulty setting?

2) Despite the raw damage increasing with power levels, I assume berserker is viable with savage defiance? Or will I be so aggravated by the malus at later levels? Is berserker subclass a trap on POTD?

3) "Blood Storm"? How much does the duration increase pr kill?

4) Is there any way to see the carnage AOE?

Hit me with all your knowledge!

 

Signature: Nerf Troubadour and stuff!

Edited February 22, 2022 by Frak_the_2nd

[crdvis16]

I don't know the answers to 1 and 3.  For 4 I think the answer is no which is unfortunate considering you CAN see the Stag's carnage radius when shapeshifted as a Druid (at least with the BPM version, I assume in the vanilla game as well).

For 2), I've always skipped Savage Defiance when playing a Berserker.  Rage is in short supply and I couldn't justify using it for a buff that I'm mostly already getting from Frenzy.  I don't think Berserkers are a trap subclass.  The maluses can be troublesome and lead to your Berserker dying if you don't baby sit him a little by throwing him some heals on occassion but it's also a powerful subclass with some fun synergies to play with.  There are also some items that can help- voidward reduces raw damage, Modwyr or Devil's armor can remove confused, and Maker's Own Power can auto petrify+heal you when you're low on hp.  You can also keep an eye on your list of buffs for anything that triggers when low on health to know you're in danger.

[Elric Galad]

16 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

It's been a while, but I'm back. I'm gonna beat this game! Restartistis be buggered! Path of the Damned and upscale all the way, every day!

3) "Blood Storm"? How much does the duration increase pr kill?

+3s, it is meh

16 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

4) Is there any way to see the carnage AOE?

Hit me with all your knowledge!

Carnage Indicator mod by Noqn.

16 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

Signature: Nerf Troubadour and stuff!

Balance Polishing Mod nerf package does nerf Troubadour  

Don't hesitate to suggest some other nerfs.

3 hours ago, crdvis16 said:

For 4 I think the answer is no which is unfortunate considering you CAN see the Stag's carnage radius when shapeshifted as a Druid (at least with the BPM version, I assume in the vanilla game as well).

Vanilla Game stag carnage is an activable ability. Community Patch made it an actual carnage.

[Boeroer]

@Noqnmod that does show some AoE indicators is great.

When you have a good and reactive healer in the group then you probably don't need Stalwart Defiance. But note that Berserker Frenzy's self damage scales much stronger than normal damage does. It's not too bad in the early levels, it will not kill you when you are at full health, but at higher levels it will def. kill you even if not one enemy touches you. Maybe with maxed CON, an amulet of Greater Health, regeneration gear and Tough (passive ability) you could still prevent that - but having either a healer and/or Stalwart Defiance is less of a hassle. 

When talking about the best single class Barb subclass it's always Furyshaper for me. The Blood Ward is so good for a party because unlike stuff like Old Siec (Chanter phrase) it drains health from all sources of damage, including DoTs (see Blood Storm, Bleeding Cuts, Panther's Leap) for the party (if they stand in the AoE of the ward). The only things that don't work with the Blood Ward are traps, wall spells and Priest seals (which very few people use anyway).

It is very potent even for the Barb alone because in combination with Leaping in and using Heart of Fury and Barbaric Retaliation you will dish out a lot of damage, even a lot of DoT if you use stuff like Battle Axe + modal and Blood Storm, so that you will have a constant stream of healing for you. This takes a lot of stress from any healer because who's doing damage also gets healed. It stacks with Old Siec by the way (which his a lot weaker).

If you use Dazing Shout or Driving Roar (I would since those two are the best active abilities a Barb can have imo) you can heal up quickly while doing dmg/CC that nothing's a real threat - as long as you can keep casting. If you want to use Barbaric Retaliation (it's great) I would def. use Dazing Shout. It drastically improves your sturdyness and has a huge damaging AoE around you. It only costs 1 Rage which can often be retrieved when having Blood Surge.

And before getting to the Blood Ward you'll have the Frenzy Ward (stacks with every other speed buff) and the Fear Ward for your party which is also super useful. Just placing it among your backline will screw up rushers and leapers that want to come for your casters/archers etc.

Getting one's wards destroyed is not s problem if you have a Priest: just withdraw the ward. It becomes untouchable but will still work just fine. 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Boeroer

[Constentin Lévine]

57 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

If you use Dazing Shout or Driving Roar (I would since those two are the best active abilities a Barb can have imo)

In comparison, Maoris All Blacks' Haka is a PL1 ability.

[Frak_the_2nd]

Thanks for all the answers. Now I have another question.

 

Being peckish at the moment, I'm thinking of trying corpse-eater subclass. Mainly because the fun thing with having extra PL due to Forbidden Pie and Corpse Loaf.

1) Forbidden Pie comes with a malus to diplomacy skill. If my base value is 0, can my diplomacy be a negative number after having eaten Forbidden Pie?

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

1) Forbidden Pie comes with a malus to diplomacy skill. If my base value is 0, can my diplomacy be a negative number after having eaten Forbidden Pie?

lol, probably, but i think in practice the only time that might matter is for that club in FS that scale with diplomacy. that would be where you could test it. but nothing else i believe calculates based on diplomacy skill specifically (using thresholds instead) so a negative value wouldn't be any different from a prolonged 0.

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

Thanks for all the answers. Now I have another question.

 

Being peckish at the moment, I'm thinking of trying corpse-eater subclass. Mainly because the fun thing with having extra PL due to Forbidden Pie and Corpse Loaf.

1) Forbidden Pie comes with a malus to diplomacy skill. If my base value is 0, can my diplomacy be a negative number after having eaten Forbidden Pie?

I won't go Corpse Eater.

+1 rage is an extremely bad malus when your very best abilities cost 1 rage.

+2PL from food is barely cute when you can get the same from potion of ascension (which does not stack unless abusing the save/load bug that allows food to stack with everything). And it is not even the best food bonus anyway.

Consume Corpse isn't reliable cause it doesn't work on half of foes.

[thelee]

21 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Consume Corpse isn't reliable cause it doesn't work on half of foes.

oh yeah, if one does want to go corpse-eater, make sure to 'disable gibs' in game settings, or you'll have even fewer bodies to devour.

+1 rage is a pretty severe malus, and you have to be in a party and build that doesn't mind the barb leaving the front lines to chow down on something. it can be fun for the flavor though (edit: no pun intended).

Edited February 25, 2022 by thelee

[Kaylon]

7 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

Mainly because the fun thing with having extra PL due to Forbidden Pie and Corpse Loaf.

Just +1PL (over Hot Razors Skewers/Shark Soup) isn't a big deal and you lose much more.

[thelee]

might be worth pointing out that @Elric Galad's balance polishing mod significantly boosts corpse eater.

i played a corpse-eater a while back, that was in a suboptimal MC, with gibs enabled (didn't know about the interaction at the time) and it certainly felt not-great even considering the further harming factors, though it had moments where it felt pretty good (and it's certainly still viable). another way to mitigate the downside is to use expensive abilities, but yeah it doesn't change the fact that the malus (more expensive abilities) is active 100% of the time and the main bonus (eating bodies) is active much, much, much less of the time, and near-0% in boss fights, and the first body you eat mostly just helps to counteract the malus, instead of being a true bonus. at least with the BPM IIRC you get much higher PL bonuses as a more pronounced and steadier bonus counteracting the malus.

[Frak_the_2nd]

The defense have spoken and I have listened.

I get that both corpse-eater and mage slayer is "mechanically challenged" and considered underdog-classes.

Also, I don't think I can RP a corpse-eater well enough. with lacking diplomacy due to bad breath from rotten flesh pies.

 

Hmm, that leaves

- Vanilla barb. Probably MOR-okay though the "No Subclass" notification chafes me. It's like an insult on my screen. To my face!

- Berserker. High risk, high reward. Did some math. Frenzy should be quite manageable with Stalwart Defense.

- Furyshaper. Interesting concept. The acc buff against spirits is nice and the will-hit can probably be mitigated with drugs, "Bull's Will" and stuff. But I'm not too fond of pet/summon-classes.

 

I'm gonna roll the dice I think.

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

 Berserker. High risk, high reward. Did some math. Frenzy should be quite manageable with Stalwart Defense.

Are you aware that Frenzy's self damage does scale with Power Level in a different way than other abilities? Every PL adds 3 base dmg which then gets boosted by (>10) Might, Blooded etc. Not even Robust from Stalwart Defiance will be enough to completely even that out at some point. Of course it helps a lot and you can use Second Wind, too. What also helps is a pet with healing on kill and a weapon which heals (e.g. Twin Eels, Sanguine Great Sword or Engoliero do Espirs or so). And of course a party member who can heal. 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Boeroer

[crdvis16]

Furyshaper really is fantastic- his totems are really really strong.  I think Furyshaper is probably better than Berserker overall.  The only thing I didn't like as much with Furyshaper is that I felt like I was spending too much time casting at the beginning of the fight and not enough time being a Barb smashing things.  The "feel" of playing a Barb has to go to Berserker- recklessly charging in, smashing things, and dying relatively frequently.  

[thelee]

I am also a big Furyshaper fan. Not enough can be said about how great even the first totem is: as a stacking 10% action speed area bonus it has immense party utility from beginning to end. That’s before you even get to the up to two other useful totems you can get (though only one at any given time).

 

edit: while they mechanically function like summons, they are probably better thought of us something like consecrated ground, a fixed aoe. The fact that they can be attacked can be used as a further advantage (absorbing some hits and sparing party members, or attaching beetle shell or withdraw to them)

Edited February 26, 2022 by thelee

[Frak_the_2nd]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Are you aware that Frenzy's self damage does scale with Power Level in a different way than other abilities? Every PL adds 3 base dmg which then gets boosted by (>10) Might, Blooded etc. Not even Robust from Stalwart Defiance will be enough to completely even that out at some point. Of course it helps a lot and you can use Second Wind, too. What also helps is a pet with healing on kill and a weapon which heals (e.g. Twin Eels, Sanguine Great Sword or Engoliero do Espirs or so). And of course a party member who can heal. 

 

 

Napkin-math time.

Yep. Think it's 2 extra pr powerlevel, excluding multipliers.

At PL9, the damage will be base (18 multiplied with damage bonuses and the 45% PL Increase)*Duration/3sec.

I (think) defiance will mitigate (10 multiplied by same bonuses)*SameDuration/3sec.

Net result is a loss of (8 with damage bonuses and the 45% PL Increase)*Duration/3sec.

That should be manageable.

 

As Berk is crit-machine with frenzy, one should build towards crits and items that help with this.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Frak_the_2nd

[Frak_the_2nd]

7 hours ago, crdvis16 said:

Furyshaper really is fantastic- his totems are really really strong.  I think Furyshaper is probably better than Berserker overall.  The only thing I didn't like as much with Furyshaper is that I felt like I was spending too much time casting at the beginning of the fight and not enough time being a Barb smashing things.  The "feel" of playing a Barb has to go to Berserker- recklessly charging in, smashing things, and dying relatively frequently.  

You might be right on the dying. When I think conceptually, it fits the subclass to not survive every encounter due to recklessness. Also they added that passive ability "Vengeful Defeat".

Furryshape feels more shamanistic. A bit against the grain.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Frak_the_2nd

[Frak_the_2nd]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

edit: while they mechanically function like summons, they are probably better thought of us something like consecrated ground, a fixed aoe. The fact that they can be attacked can be used as a further advantage (absorbing some hits and sparing party members, or attaching beetle shell or withdraw to them)

That is a good take. The barb puts up a totem, and does a "last stand in this sacred area" kinda fight.

Hmm, maybe furyshaper id the way to go first time.

[Constentin Lévine]

6 minutes ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

That should be manageable.

It is, but because concealed health, it is not easy all the time.

11 hours ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

mage slayer is "mechanically challenged" and considered underdog-classes.

Mage Slayer is really particulary subclass : the ability Spell Disruption is my favorite melee effect (it is more an effect than an ability), 25% chance to fail with spell (stack 4 times), not only hostiles ones, is very big deal. But the subclass malus is too strong to consider as the same weight on the balance VS Berserker or Furyshaper I think.

[Frak_the_2nd]

33 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

It is, but because concealed health, it is not easy all the time.

Mage Slayer is really particulary subclass : the ability Spell Disruption is my favorite melee effect (it is more an effect than an ability), 25% chance to fail with spell (stack 4 times), not only hostiles ones, is very big deal. But the subclass malus is too strong to consider as the same weight on the balance VS Berserker or Furyshaper I think.

1) I like to AI-script too, so healing can be managed that way. But otherwise you have "blooded" as an indicator when at half health. Or only use frenzy when at high health. And use frenzy AND stally defense at the same time. Stally defense will heal ca half the damage.

2) I find mage-slayer intriguing. But I'm unsure how to reliably heal him. There is Second Wind. Gauns Pledge too, I think. A 75% chance on ally heal. And (unknown for me) itemization based on heal on kill. HOT via drugs.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Frak_the_2nd

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

 

Napkin-math time.

Yep. Think it's 2 extra pr powerlevel, excluding multipliers.

At PL10, the damage will be base (18 multiplied with damage bonuses and the 45% PL Increase)*Duration/3sec.

I (think) defiance will mitigate (10 multiplied by same bonuses)*SameDuration/3sec.

Net result is a loss of (8 with damage bonuses and the 45% PL Increase)*Duration/3sec.

That should be manageable.

 

As Berk is crit-machine with frenzy, one should build towards crits and items that help with this.

Eh yes, 2 (not 3 - sorry, must have been a typo without me noticing, edited that in my post above).
It's only that 2/level+starting value. No added PL scaling on top (no additional 5%).
More about that self dmg here:

Stalwart Defiance starts rather late when it comes to PL so the scaling of it can't keep up with the Frenzy's self damage. High MIG also does apply to SD's healing, but it also does to self dmg which has a higher base - so raising MIG is actually counterproductive. But you will do so with Frenzy itself (+5 MIG). Also Blooded will boost self dmg further while it won't help with healing. 

It is manageable and I like Berserker (playing a Berserker/Priest of Wael atm) - but you have to keep in mind that Stalwart Defiance alone will not save you from unintended suicide - especially if you use Blood Storm.
However, with a heal-on-kill pet and Second Wind things look way better, especially if you also have a Chanter in the party who happens to run Many Lives Pass By as a phrase. Because "accidentially" killing those with a friendly-fire AoE such as Driving Roar or so will also trigger Blood Thirst and the healing from kill (see pet) which helps you to survive, levels up your dps bc. 0 recovery - killing more primary targets in the process which leads to more heal-kills and so on. So... confusion, when used in a smart way, can also be a boon.

And then what you said: healing on crit will help, too. But in some tough fights (especially against overleveled enemies) there won't be a lot of crits. That's better against numerous (weakish) enemies.

Stacking up on regeneration gear also helps.

1 hour ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

You might be right on the dying. When I think conceptually, it fits the subclass to not survive every encounter due to recklessness. Also they added that passive ability "Vengeful Defeat".

Right. You can even stack with with weapons such as Effort (Full Attack on knockout) or stuff like Effigy's Husk (raw dmg ret. on knockout).
If you export a char from another safegame who has the Ring of Reset you can have two of them and use one of them for 3 revived without injury in every fight. If you stack them in the stash after the fight they will "recharge" to 3 uses again. It's a bit cheesy but imo it's a lot of fun to play around Vengeful Defeat a bit. And since you could use up to 3 revives in a battle anyway and just rest after such fights it's not too cheesy imo. More like convience cheese. If you need an uncheated lvl-1 char with Ring of Reset I can upload one here. It will be rel. expensive to hire him just for the ring (and then let him go) - but imo it's worth the money.
 

 

1 hour ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Mage Slayer is really particulary subclass : the ability Spell Disruption is my favorite melee effect (it is more an effect than an ability), 25% chance to fail with spell (stack 4 times), not only hostiles ones, is very big deal.

 I just thought if one can combine Hemorrhaging from Effort with Mage Slayer's spell disruption? It only works on melee hits - and I know Hemorrhage only counts as weapon hit but not melee weapon hit... but IF it worked it would turn Mage Slayer Driving Roar etc. into a great Single Class imo. Besides other stuff like Mage Slayer/Troubadour or so who would just shut down spellcasting passively... jeez...

57 minutes ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

1) I like to AI-script too, so healing can be managed that way. But otherwise you have "blooded" as an indicator when at half health. Or only use frenzy when at high health. And use frenzy AND stally defense at the same time. Stally defense will heal ca half the damage.

2) I find mage-slayer intriguing. But I'm unsure how to reliably heal him. There is Second Wind. Gauns Pledge too, I think. A 25% chance on ally heal. And (unknown for me) itemization based on heal on kill. HOT via drugs.

1) You can also use items as indicators (High Harbinger's Robes, Càsita Samelia's Legacy with Ardent, Desgraza Breastplate, Recklessd Brigandine, Effort etc.) - or use a Death Godlike (since Pallid Fate triggers on Near Death). I like Effort on a Berserker.  As I already wrote above Hemorrhaging might have interesting synergy with an SC Barb. If you combine Spirit Frenzy or Blood Frenzy + Hemorrhaging then all your attack rolls will have three potential effects: damage, sicken or hobble and stagger or raw dmg. If the sicken or hobble from Hemorrhaging crits it will trigger weapon-on-crit effects such as healing on weapon crit (from other items or so).
   
2) Stalwart Defiance will work fine. Also Regeneration gear of course. Pet-heal, too. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Boeroer

[Constentin Lévine]

57 minutes ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

But otherwise you have "blooded" as an indicator when at half health

Yes you are right, and there are some weapons and items (and Death Godlike) that proc an effect when near death, as an indicator. 

For Mage Slayer, healing is a minor problem for me : pet, items, weapons... but buffing him with another character is hazardous, so at less multiclassing him with a self-buff (not AoE) mastering class, after some fights where buff missed, an amer taste can stay on his side when you plan another combat.

I dont know if he can use drugs (White Leaf).

2 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I just thought if one can combine Hemorrhaging from Effort with Mage Slayer's spell disruption?

Absolutely, with a pulsing spell or multi-hit spell, it is fabulous!

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Frak_the_2nd said:

 

2) I find mage-slayer intriguing. But I'm unsure how to reliably heal him. There is Second Wind. Gauns Pledge too, I think. A 75% chance on ally heal. And (unknown for me) itemization based on heal on kill. HOT via drugs.

Lay on Hand isn't a spell.

[Boeroer]

29 minutes ago, Constentin Lévine said:

Absolutely, with a pulsing spell or multi-hit spell, it is fabulous!

I just tried it: it works! Just used Driving Roar with Effort and a Mage Slayer to absoutely lock down enemy casters in an old savegame I had from Forgotten Sanctum. It even works with chants and all other hit rolls. You "only" need to crit with your hit roll (of any source) to trigger Hemorrhaging - and then and the Disrupion gets applied via the sicken or hobble effect (which don't have to crit). If you are wearing stuff like Hylea's Talons and Ring of Clenched Muscle you will even pply it multiple times with one crit roll. 

Add a scroll of Avenging Storm and you'll apply 100% spell disruption to a huge area with Dazing Shout for example. Well... you can't use scrolls as Mage Slayer so maybe use tHeaven's Cacophony now that I think of it.  

Seriously people, this is the renaissance of the Mage Slayer (Utimate run?  )!  

Edited February 26, 2022 by Boeroer

[Frak_the_2nd]

Yowsa, so many answers.

So, I have almost decided and the RP flavour will be the ultimate deciding factor for me. Second Wind is a given in all barb builds for me. I

It will either be a Mage Slayer or Furyshaper. Berserker is nice and all, but I love the concept of reliable Carnage and hate the dependency of specific items to counter that. Also the -5 int hurts the AOE. OFC I could always RP him as a svef-eating berserker-druggie.

Constentin point out that healing is a minor issue for Mage Slayer. I get the impression Mage Slayer needs to be a more mobile barb than the other subclasses. Get in to kill mages. Get out when you're being swarmed and low on health with no reliable healing ready. And as Elric points out, paladin'y things aren't spells, so I might bring Pallegina or those items.

 

Hmm, Mage Slayer is looking more viable. And goddamm I hate those enemy spellcasters.

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Frak_the_2nd
Misspelled name. I hate that.