The All Things Political Topic - Those who do not move, do not notice their chains

[Gromnir]

10 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Does anyone have any resources about the CRT thing? I've only seen brief snippets about it which have given me the impression that anyone opposed to it is either misinformed, or one of those 'You know who talks about race? RACISTS!' idiots who think that acknowledging the racist history of the USA and the flow on effects this has had is somehow a bad thing.

crt is most assured not being taught in public schools other than universities.

however, we did offer links earlier in the thread.

noted in the syllubus from brown is the following free resource:

https://uniteyouthdublin.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/richard_delgado_jean_stefancic_critical_race_thbookfi-org-1.pdf

worth reading. text o' the entire work, excluding table of contents, glossary and intro fluff is something 'round 120 pages. but again, is most assured not being taught in any public school.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

This is an overreaction but its because of this irrational and real concern with revisionist history and attempts to teach CRT in schools in  some states. And before someone says " but its not being taught in schools, stop fearmongering BruceVC" 

Thats only  because its been blocked and prohibited in several states or it would be taught 

So, you’re saying it’s just like Darwin’s theory of evolution. It was also considered revisionist blasphemy for a long time. Banned, blocked, obstructed until only a few backwards places still argue that it had noting on it

[Chairchucker]

54 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

noted in the syllubus from brown is the following free resource:

https://uniteyouthdublin.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/richard_delgado_jean_stefancic_critical_race_thbookfi-org-1.pdf

worth reading. text o' the entire work, excluding table of contents, glossary and intro fluff is something 'round 120 pages. but again, is most assured not being taught in any public school.

HA! Good Fun!

I've read bits of it but dang it is long. I have noticed that while it may refer to 'Critical Race Theory', it seems to also reference discrimination experienced by women. In any case, what is the specific nature of the objection people have to this being taught?

[Agiel]

Ostensibly they believe it'll help create a climate in which their children will support "Robin Hood schemes to help inner city blacks and Latinos".

Edited January 19, 2022 by Agiel

[Chairchucker]

Ah, so it is bad to teach about systemic inequality because of the measures people might take to address it?

[Malcador]

21 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Ah, so it is bad to teach about systemic inequality because of the measures people might take to address it?

Yes, because it is racist & sexist against white males, apparently.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

37 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

Ah, so it is bad to teach about systemic inequality because of the measures people might take to address it?

Not exactly, the anti-CRT folks are already opposed to the measures people might take to address any inequality. Welfare is Stalinism or something.

The specific CRT panic that emerged in 2021 is a deeper reaction to efforts like the 1619 Project and events like the 2020 protests/uprisings/insurrections. It is beyond the opposition to the teaching of systemic equality and encompasses opposition to teaching that racism happened, interracial couples, and books by authors who aren't white. Basically it's a soft white nationalism with some deniability slapped on top to avoid scrutiny.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

So, you’re saying it’s just like Darwin’s theory of evolution. It was also considered revisionist blasphemy for a long time. Banned, blocked, obstructed until only a few backwards places still argue that it had noting on it

No CRT is not the same thing as evolution, their is real evidence of evolution 

But part of the problem with the discussion around CRT at schools is what @Chairchucker raised, you wont find a curriculum for it because its been banned but it still get raised. Gromnirs link is for a specific university and that is not the same thing  as the school subject

But the school curriculum does and must exist if its banned, so maybe someone can find us that so we have this debate?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/critical-race-theory-is-banned-in-these-states/ar-AAKWl5g

@Chairchucker

You asked what is the issue with CRT? Its about a selective and inaccurate portrayal of history of the US and that revisionist history will replicate around the world to all countries that had colonialism. To quote for the link above 

"the theory that racism is not merely the product of prejudice, but that racism is embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons."

So basically most followers of CRT believe that the US is  a country created by systemic racism and this is still the case. I disagree that is the case for several reasons that include ,

• SA and Apartheid is an example of systemic racism where you had  actual laws in the country that discriminate  directly against black people
• The US is a country of 320 million people and 73 % of those people are white. Yet you had a black president for 2 terms so obviously white people would have had to vote for Obama. A country where systemic racism is real you wouldn't have seen this
• The US has millions of people desperate to immigrate to it and many of them are non-white. If the US was really racist why would so many non-white people want to immigrate their? You dont see the same levels of immigration to Russia or China

Finally racism exists in the US but thats incidents and not systemic. I will always be opposed to sweeping, inaccurate generalizations of history and or current realities in the world  

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Pidesco said:

What in the world are you talking about? 

I have no idea, what are you talking about ?

[Chairchucker]

Ah, I assumed that it would be relatively uncontroversial amongst most people here that the USA was founded in racism and that there is still a great deal of systemic and unconscious racism, (as well as overt and incidental racism) but more fool me I guess, turns out we're not all on the same page.

 

Hey here's some real statistic evidence of systemic racism https://www.thinkstatistically.com/post/is-there-evidence-of-systemic-racism-in-the-u-s

 

Not sure if you genuinely think any of your counterpoints have any value? They really don't. Seriously, one of your examples of evidence that the USA can't possibly have systemic racism, is that people are fleeing to the USA as opposed to freaking CHINA? While we're at it, why not ask why they don't migrate to North Korea?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Chairchucker

[ShadySands]

You can't find it in schools because we banned it because it was in schools. Am I getting that right, Bruce?

[BruceVC]

53 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

You can't find it in schools because we banned it because it was in schools. Am I getting that right, Bruce?

No thats not what I am saying, it has never been implemented in schools because it was banned before it was implemented. Thats my understanding. If it has been implemented then I cant find the curriculum at any school 

If you can find an example of what the curriculum is at US schools that would be  great 

 

 

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Ah, I assumed that it would be relatively uncontroversial amongst most people here that the USA was founded in racism and that there is still a great deal of systemic and unconscious racism, (as well as overt and incidental racism) but more fool me I guess, turns out we're not all on the same page.

 

Hey here's some real statistic evidence of systemic racism https://www.thinkstatistically.com/post/is-there-evidence-of-systemic-racism-in-the-u-s

 

Not sure if you genuinely think any of your counterpoints have any value? They really don't. Seriously, one of your examples of evidence that the USA can't possibly have systemic racism, is that people are fleeing to the USA as opposed to freaking CHINA? While we're at it, why not ask why they don't migrate to North Korea?

Yes you right, we not on the same page. Thats okay, we can agree to disagree and debate other topics 

[Gromnir]

crt is 'bout grievance. is not complicated. crt is not being taught in public schools. is university (typical Graduate level) course work. whenever evidence is shown o' it being taught in schools, what is actual revealed is educators discussing ways to make classrooms more inclusive-- is teachers and superintendents self-educating or engaging in continuing education. 

we got a generation o' white americans who has suffered economic hardships for the past couple decades. is not that white american hardships is worse than minority hardships, but if you is working two jobs (both o' which is just shy o' technical full-time so your employer need not provide benefits) and you nevertheless can't pay rent and utilities and health insurance, somebody must be to blame. so, far-right radio and other media sources, taking cues from rush limbaugh, realized that there were a very large % o' the population which were angry and those people could be politicized and even radicalized. that angry and white portion o' the population were not happy to hear that in spite o' the fact they were working twelve to fifteen hour days, they were nevertheless gonna lose their family farm or that the factory job they had earned were disappeared to mexico or asia or 'cause o' robots. simultaneous, rush and others were blaming migrants for taking domestic jobs, and all those uneducated white americans were being told that while they suffered, junkie street people were getting free money handouts they were just gonna blow on more drugs. and how long is good americans needing to sit in silence as minorities have more kids so they can get bigger free checks from the government? where is the sympathy and handouts for the white working class, the people who deserve help? well, rush and bannon and finally trump tells 'em that is all 'bout the libs trying to screw real americans.  the somebody screwing real americans is the libs and the reason for the greatest ream job in american history is 'cause o' some misplaced notion that white americans is the cause o' every problem minorities suffer today.

for chrissakes, the civil war ended slavery. you people got brown v. board of education and equality. you even got affirmative action which took jobs away from more qualified whites. are you grateful? no. every time some cop does his job, before you know what the real story is, you people are there in the night burning businesses and stealing tires and hair extensions, just like you always do. 

sounds racist? sounds ridiculous?

crt is not being taught in public schools, but it is a theory which educators has debated and even embraced in part or whole. white americans don't know what crt is, but they do understand it is related to education and they is certain, in spite o' their admitted ignorance as to what exact is crt, that it is yet another example o' the libs blaming white americans for every misfortune which has ever befallen a minority, and the base is way past being tired o' being unjust blamed. real americans is angry and they finally got a President and a party who speaks to them, speaks for them.

illegal aliens. welfare leeching junkies. fat cats sending their work to asia or central america. college educated libs. the new gop is finally speaking out against these evils.

AP FACT CHECK: Trump seeds race animus with COVID falsehood

crt grievance isn't real. the base is even more lazy than chairchucker and is less likely to know what crt is. is no way in hell the base knows if crt is being taught in public schools to middle and high school kids. however, the anger is real. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

crt is 'bout grievance. is not complicated. crt is not being taught in public schools. is university (typical Graduate level) course work. whenever evidence is shown o' it being taught in schools, what is actual revealed is educators discussing ways to make classrooms more inclusive-- is teachers and superintendents self-educating or engaging in continuing education. 

we got a generation o' white americans who has suffered economic hardships for the past couple decades. is not that white american hardships is worse than minority hardships, but if you is working two jobs (both o' which is just shy o' technical full-time so your employer need not provide benefits) and you nevertheless can't pay rent and utilities and health insurance, somebody must be to blame. so, far-right radio and other media sources, taking cues from rush limbaugh, realized that there were a very large % o' the population which were angry and those people could be politicized and even radicalized. that angry and white portion o' the population were not happy to hear that in spite o' the fact they were working twelve to fifteen hour days, they were nevertheless gonna lose their family farm or that the factory job they had earned were disappeared to mexico or asia or 'cause o' robots. simultaneous, rush and others were blaming migrants for taking domestic jobs, and all those uneducated white americans were being told that while they suffered, junkie street people were getting free money handouts they were just gonna blow on more drugs. and how long is good americans needing to sit in silence as minorities have more kids so they can get bigger free checks from the government? where is the sympathy and handouts for the white working class, the people who deserve help? well, rush and bannon and finally trump tells 'em that is all 'bout the libs trying to screw real americans.  the somebody screwing real americans is the libs and the reason for the greatest ream job in american history is 'cause o' some misplaced notion that white americans is the cause o' every problem minorities suffer today.

for chrissakes, the civil war ended slavery. you people got brown v. board of education and equality. you even got affirmative action which took jobs away from more qualified whites. are you grateful? no. every time some cop does his job, before you know what the real story is, you people are there in the night burning businesses and stealing tires and hair extensions, just like you always do. 

sounds racist? sounds ridiculous?

crt is not being taught in public schools, but it is a theory which educators has debated and even embraced in part or whole. white americans don't know what crt is, but they do understand it is related to education and they is certain, in spite o' their admitted ignorance as to what exact is crt, that it is yet another example o' the libs blaming white americans for every misfortune which has ever befallen a minority, and the base is way past being tired o' being unjust blamed. real americans is angry and they finally got a President and a party who speaks to them, speaks for them.

illegal aliens. welfare leeching junkies. fat cats sending their work to asia or central america. college educated libs. the new gop is finally speaking out against these evils.

AP FACT CHECK: Trump seeds race animus with COVID falsehood

crt grievance isn't real. the base is even more lazy than chairchucker and is less likely to know what crt is. is no way in hell the base knows if crt is being taught in public schools to middle and high school kids. however, the anger is real. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You make some good points, I do agree with some of them

But if its ridiculous that many  people are objecting to something  before they  know what the curriculum is isnt it equally ridiculous that people are defending it without also knowing what the curriculum is ?

Its seems both arguments are equally flawed ?

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

• The US has millions of people desperate to immigrate to it and many of them are non-white. If the US was really racist why would so many non-white people want to immigrate their? You dont see the same levels of immigration to Russia or China

It's THERE dammit...

If you ask the Chinese, they will tell you they have millions of immigrants, ethnic Tibetans, Uighurs etc. who have all been welcomed into the Chinese motherland. Russia has also welcomed a hundreds of thousands of immigrants, many of them even bringing their own land in Donbas and Crimea when they moved to Russia!

Ok, that wasn't meant seriously. I do think (seriously), that while the US is barely out of legal racism (people of colour are now allowed to marry white people legally in the South, can even use the same public transport). It's still a brand new thing though, in a historical context. The racism is still embedded very deeply on a societal and cultural level, even if not on a legislative level anymore.

[Chairchucker]

49 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

crt grievance isn't real. the base is even more lazy than chairchucker and is less likely to know what crt is. is no way in hell the base knows if crt is being taught in public schools to middle and high school kids. however, the anger is real. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

We can't all be the ones who read 120 pages of something from a different country for fun

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

It's THERE dammit...

If you ask the Chinese, they will tell you they have millions of immigrants, ethnic Tibetans, Uighurs etc. who have all been welcomed into the Chinese motherland. Russia has also welcomed a hundreds of thousands of immigrants, many of them even bringing their own land in Donbas and Crimea when they moved to Russia!

Ok, that wasn't meant seriously. I do think (seriously), that while the US is barely out of legal racism (people of colour are now allowed to marry white people legally in the South, can even use the same public transport). It's still a brand new thing though, in a historical context. The racism is still embedded very deeply on a societal and cultural level, even if not on a legislative level anymore.

Yes I agree, in most countries bigotry is not  legislated but still exists in different ways in a societal and cultural level. I dont think the US is different to any  other country I have worked or travelled to in this regard. But yes my point is around the legislative level because that is what " systemic " primarily means. And I can make direct comparisons based on my lived experience during Apartheid  where their were laws that were definitely racist 

Also I dont know how many Americans you personally know and out of those Americans how many of them were  racist in your opinion? I have met and interacted with hundreds of Americans personally and maybe 10-15% were racist IMO as most bigots are not open about it but you can make a fairly well informed guess without people explicitly stating " Im a bigot " by what they say or dont say. (And no this doesn't apply to me as I am not a racist\fascist despite what some people may think  )

And the main reason I am sensitive to generalizations like " systemic racism is what country xx is about " is because a few people say the same thing about SA on talk shows and in some of our debates. Thats despite the fact we have a black government, white people are only 6 % of the total population and we have NO  laws that discriminate against non-white people in anyway 

But the same criticism gets raised as "systemic " or something similar 

 

 

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Chairchucker said:

We can't all be the ones who read 120 pages of something from a different country for fun

you wanted to know what it is. 120 pages isn't a particular deep read or huge time investment, but if you genuine want to know more than the fox news or msnbc explanations, you are gonna need do a bit more.

the thing is, what is crt is a red herring, 'cause again, it is not being taught in public schools to middle or high school kids. doesn't actual matter what it is if the concern is kids being perverted by the indoctrination o' libs if is not actual part o' curriculum. 

nevertheless, you ain't gonna know what is crt w/o a little education, which should not be a surprise, eh?

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

We can't all be the ones who read 120 pages of something from a different country for fun

I agree, but its 191 pages not 120. Dont you know that everyone on this forum has read that link which is why we all experts on CRT.  Please dont be lazy, go through it tonight and summarize the points you want to discuss tomorrow 

But also I see it was printed in 2001 so even Gromnir has posted an old and outdated opinion of CRT

But in his defense he is the only person I have ever met who when I asked the question " can someone find the curriculum " has found something relevant or something curriculum based 

 

[Raithe]

 

[Guard Dog]

CRT has become one of those things that seems to mean different things to different people. I mean it is a thing and it does have an objective definition. But like most bogeymen it takes on different meanings to different folks. I tend to think of the way it addresses historical inequality as well meaning but also self defeating. Just my $.02

Personally I'm far more put off by the way they are teaching math these days. They are taking very simple operations like  multiplication and division and making them complex by using numberline construction rather than just simple memorization. It's convoluted and IMO will make more advanced concepts in algebra harder to do. 

But, that is just my opinion. I don't have kids. Never going to. And I already know how to do advanced math so I don't really care. Plus it could just me viewing it through the vanity of my own knowledge. After all if I know how to do it then the way I learned to do must be the only way right?  

Edited January 19, 2022 by Guard Dog

[BruceVC]

18 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

CRT has become one of those things that seems to mean different things to different people. I mean it is a thing and it does have an objective definition. But like most bogeymen it takes on different meanings to different folks. I tend to think of the way it addresses historical inequality as well meaning but also self defeating. Just my $.02

Personally I'm far more put off by the way they are teaching math these days. They are taking very simple operations like  multiplication and division and making them complex by using numberline construction rather than just simple memorization. It's convoluted and IMO will make more advanced concepts in algebra harder to do. 

But, that is just my opinion. I don't have kids. Never going to. And I already know how to do advanced math so I don't really care. Plus it could just me viewing it through the vanity of my own knowledge. After all if I know how to do it then the way I learned to do must be the only way right?  

It would be great to hear your opinion GD,  would be your definition for CRT? How would you describe it  as it intersects with historical inequality ?

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Personally I'm far more put off by the way they are teaching math these days. They are taking very simple operations like  multiplication and division and making them complex by using numberline construction rather than just simple memorization. It's convoluted and IMO will make more advanced concepts in algebra harder to do. 

More book recommendations

[Guard Dog]

37 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

It would be great to hear your opinion GD,  would be your definition for CRT? How would you describe it  as it intersects with historical inequality ?

I don't know, or care, enough about it to formulate an informed opinion of CRT as a teaching program. If I had kids in school I guess I would care. Or if I actually gave a damn about the future of this society after I've shuffled off this mortal coil. 

I do absolutely think the inequalities and terrible treatment of our fellow humans both by individuals and systems of governance should be taught in full and brutal detail with no sensibilities spared. The whole "Lost Cause" alternative history of the Civil War is rooted in sparing the feelings of people alive to today by finding virtue someplace there was little to be had. People who believe it are basically good and grab onto it because they do not want to believe their ancestors were not. 

But at the same time I do not think that history should be over dramatized and I definitely do NOT think anyone alive today owes anyone else an apology for deeds done by people long dead. Nor do I think it's healthy to tell people they are victims and it's all stacked against them. All of these criticisms have been made of CRT.