Gorth Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Just when you thought Djokovic was the most hated man in Australia.... https://doublebaytoday.com/latest-polling-shows-more-australians-want-scott-morrison-deported-than-novak-djokovic/ Polling company Newspoll interviewed a random sample of 5,600 Australian voters, asking who they’d like to deport more. “It was a tight contest, but 52% of respondents chose Scott Morrison,” says Newspoll’s Lyle Sims. “That’s 4 percentage points more than Novak Djokovic.” The result will come as a major wake up call for the coalition, just months out from the federal election. I stand corrected, Scott Morrison might be the most hated man in Australia. The upcoming election is going to be interesting. One can always hope he's gone for good and the Australian Liberal Party gets relegated to the history books. Stories to scare kids with in the future. 1 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairchucker Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Hating our politicians is what we do best. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, rjshae said: Statistics can be manipulated. Do you have a source for this? https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/ It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k. They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Elerond said: https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/ It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k. They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones Please tell me we not suggesting Venezuela is your example of a well run Socialist country? Dont citizens have to want to live in country, the economy can't collapse and their shouldn't be tens of thousands of people immigrating before we sing the praises of any government ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 52 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Please tell me we not suggesting Venezuela is your example of a well run Socialist country? Dont citizens have to want to live in country, the economy can't collapse and their shouldn't be tens of thousands of people immigrating before we sing the praises of any government ? No, Venezuela is not a good example. Nor is Cuba, although you could argue 50 years of near total blockade has done more to hurt Cubans than the actual politics. From worldpopulationreview.com.com Failed Socialist Countries The largest of the failed socialist countries is the Soviet Union, which fell in 1991. Following World War II, the United States helped rebuild Western European countries, all of whom were free marketing economies that rebuilt rapidly by establishing the European Union and trading with one another. On the other hand, the Soviet Union seized government control of Eastern European nations, all of which became socialist states. These included: Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, and Ukraine. While East Germany reunified with West Germany and joined the thriving EU economy, the rest of the Eastern European countries faced economic hardship after the Soviet Union fell. Many of these countries remain the poorest European countries today. Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela are currently socialist states facing their own economic crises deemed a result of socialism. Successful Socialist Countries Some argue that there has been no completely socialist country that has been successful, only countries that have seen success in adopting socialist policies. Bolivia is an example of a prosperous socialist country. Bolivia has drastically cut extreme poverty and has the highest GDP growth rate in South America. Other countries that have adopted and enacted socialist ideas and policies to various degrees, and have seen success in improving their societies by doing so, are Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand. 2 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 35 minutes ago, Gorth said: No, Venezuela is not a good example. Nor is Cuba, although you could argue 50 years of near total blockade has done more to hurt Cubans than the actual politics. From worldpopulationreview.com.com Failed Socialist Countries The largest of the failed socialist countries is the Soviet Union, which fell in 1991. Following World War II, the United States helped rebuild Western European countries, all of whom were free marketing economies that rebuilt rapidly by establishing the European Union and trading with one another. On the other hand, the Soviet Union seized government control of Eastern European nations, all of which became socialist states. These included: Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, and Ukraine. While East Germany reunified with West Germany and joined the thriving EU economy, the rest of the Eastern European countries faced economic hardship after the Soviet Union fell. Many of these countries remain the poorest European countries today. Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela are currently socialist states facing their own economic crises deemed a result of socialism. Successful Socialist Countries Some argue that there has been no completely socialist country that has been successful, only countries that have seen success in adopting socialist policies. Bolivia is an example of a prosperous socialist country. Bolivia has drastically cut extreme poverty and has the highest GDP growth rate in South America. Other countries that have adopted and enacted socialist ideas and policies to various degrees, and have seen success in improving their societies by doing so, are Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand. Yes I agree with this and I also agree that hybrid socialist models like some of the examples you mention absolutely work. We have discussed at length the success of the Nordic countries which are Socialist\Capitalist hybrids IMO meaning they have adopted socialist ideas but these countries dont go around nationalizing or stealing the assets of foreign investors like we have seen in Cuba and Venezuela Because what is the definition of socialism? If you think that socialism is defined as the state having control over everything then it will fail as we have seen throughout history with China being the exception but who wants to live in China? So if you mean socialism like in the Nordic countries then yes it can succeed and be beneficial but these models are not like the socialist failures of Venezuela where the state not only ignored the rule of law and order but also decided that nationalization was fine. Citizens and investors have to buy into these systems and not be forced to comply by the state and security forces "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Gorth said: Just when you thought Djokovic was the most hated man in Australia.... https://doublebaytoday.com/latest-polling-shows-more-australians-want-scott-morrison-deported-than-novak-djokovic/ Polling company Newspoll interviewed a random sample of 5,600 Australian voters, asking who they’d like to deport more. “It was a tight contest, but 52% of respondents chose Scott Morrison,” says Newspoll’s Lyle Sims. “That’s 4 percentage points more than Novak Djokovic.” The result will come as a major wake up call for the coalition, just months out from the federal election. I stand corrected, Scott Morrison might be the most hated man in Australia. The upcoming election is going to be interesting. One can always hope he's gone for good and the Australian Liberal Party gets relegated to the history books. Stories to scare kids with in the future. @Gorth and @Chairchucker Do you guys now feel your government is going to far with this Djokovic issue, meaning its time to accept he should be able to play after the ruling of the Oz judge. But apparently Djokovic can still be deported I am looking for your personal views as citizens and not what the general public sentiment is or isn't ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, BruceVC said: I am looking for your personal views as citizens and not what the general public sentiment is or isn't ? Entirely personal view... I find the guy disgusting and hope he gets deported. Unhappy that the Victorian government didn't narrow down the exceptions to the vaccine requirements better. Thaat being said, I think even the Serbian PM may have second thoughts about how great a man he is, as it looks like he may have given false Visa declarations, having traveled around while being Covid positive. Not only that, but being seen mingling with people with no distancing and no mask (and no vaccination) 24 hours after having receive his positive test result. I.e. knowingly exposing other people to the virus. 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Yes I agree with this and I also agree that hybrid socialist models like some of the examples you mention absolutely work. We have discussed at length the success of the Nordic countries which are Socialist\Capitalist hybrids IMO meaning they have adopted socialist ideas but these countries dont go around nationalizing or stealing the assets of foreign investors like we have seen in Cuba and Venezuela Because what is the definition of socialism? If you think that socialism is defined as the state having control over everything then it will fail as we have seen throughout history with China being the exception but who wants to live in China? So if you mean socialism like in the Nordic countries then yes it can succeed and be beneficial but these models are not like the socialist failures of Venezuela where the state not only ignored the rule of law and order but also decided that nationalization was fine. Citizens and investors have to buy into these systems and not be forced to comply by the state and security forces A nice definition of socialism... (from a comparison to communism) https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448 Key Similarities Communism and socialism both grew out of grass-roots opposition to the exploitation of workers by wealthy businesses during the Industrial Revolution. Both assume that all goods and services will be produced by government-controlled institutions or collective organizations rather than by privately-owned businesses. In addition, the central government is mainly responsible for all aspects of economic planning, including matters of supply and demand. Key Differences Under communism, the people are compensated or provided for based on their needs. In a pure communist society, the government provides most or all food, clothing, housing and other necessities based on what it considers to be the needs of the people. Socialism is based on the premise the people will be compensated based on their level of individual contribution to the economy. Effort and innovation are thus rewarded under socialism. What tends to work better (compared to the above) What Is a Social Democracy? Democratic socialism is an economic, social, and political ideology holding that while both the society and economy should be run democratically, they should be dedicated to meeting the needs of the people as a whole, rather than encouraging individual prosperity as in capitalism. Democratic socialists advocate the transition of society from capitalism to socialism through existing participatory democratic processes, rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism. Universally-used services such as housing, utilities, mass transit, and health care are distributed by the government, while consumer goods are distributed by a capitalistic free market. 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, Gorth said: What Is a Social Democracy? Democratic socialism is an economic, social, and political ideology holding that while both the society and economy should be run democratically, they should be dedicated to meeting the needs of the people as a whole, rather than encouraging individual prosperity as in capitalism. Democratic socialists advocate the transition of society from capitalism to socialism through existing participatory democratic processes, rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism. Universally-used services such as housing, utilities, mass transit, and health care are distributed by the government, while consumer goods are distributed by a capitalistic free market. I like this definition of Social Democracy as this is how I see the Nordic countries? I hope @Elerond and @Zoraptor read this link I particularly agree with the point " rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism " The idea that somehow a revolution by workers and policies of forced nationalization( never forget this will always be seen as theft of assets by any investor ) is going to lead to a positive economic outcome is just rhetoric and fantasy "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairchucker Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Re: Djokavic; boot him. The process that led to his initial visa cancellation may have been flawed, but there is still ample reason (i.e., him being a lying jerk) to deny it a second go round. Re: socialism/capitalism etc, I think while the terms are useful in terms of a shorthand description of certain policies, they can also be a hindrance, in that people will just play word association bingo and go 'oh that particular policy used the key word 'social', it must be socialism and therefore bad', instead of considering the policies on their merits and examining how they've fared when they've been used elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Yang was right the entire time. 2 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said: Yang was right the entire time. You mean Andrew Yang? What did he say that he was right about, I found him to be well meaning but I dont agree with much of what he suggests "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 13 hours ago, Zoraptor said: They're WHO figures for 2018. [should say, I haven't directly looked them up to check, only seen them cited as such] Most of the world's socialist countries have the best food security they've had in their history, now. You can say what you want about Mao- and let's be honest, most of the negatives are richly deserved- but China hasn't had a major famine since his reforms despite very very regularly having them before hand. Of course that's partly due to the Green Revolution and international freight, but there are still plenty of places that do get famine. Most of which are, well, capitalist. The bigger argument is whether China is actually socialist or not. Note that I was speaking very specifically about central-planning socialism, which in a number of cases has a very dark history of starvation of its populace. Not hybrid-style socialism. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 12 hours ago, Elerond said: https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/ It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k. They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones I think that's what you had. Anyway, 2018 was roughly when the starvation in Venezuela began to be at a critical level. That was prior to the pandemic, and the numbers are likely worse now. https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22646&LangID=E "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 16 hours ago, rjshae said: Yep, you get guaranteed health care while you're starving to death. Lucky you. Interesting way to look at it. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, rjshae said: Note that I was speaking very specifically about central-planning socialism, which in a number of cases has a very dark history of starvation of its populace. Not hybrid-style socialism. Was your initial post about Venezuela in response to Raithe's image? I imagine it probably wasn't, but it did come across that way because the two posts were so close together. Anyway, in the US we have quite a few socialist programs to deal with housing, food, and medical care. They just tend to be local and small scale, particularly compared to the profit margins and big business models that dominate housing, food, and medicine. So yeah, I don't think anyone outside of the extreme ends of the political spectrum is arguing for a full central planning socialism system in the US. But I sure would like a decent Universal Health Care system in place before I get too old and my maintenance costs start to skyrocket. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 https://www.outa.co.za/blog/newsroom-1/post/court-declares-aarto-unconstitutional-and-invalid-1113 Great news, our high court has declared the AARTO system of penalizing drivers with a demerit system of 12 points unconstitutional. I always believe human rights lawyers get somethings right "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said: Was your initial post about Venezuela in response to Raithe's image? I assume so, unless he was mortally offended at Gfted1's desire to like posts more than once. Regardless, it absolutely encapsulates what Raithe's image is poking at, that invoking failings of socialist countries in response to criticism of failings capitalist countries isn't very effective. Like just the healthcare system in the US was absolutely insane before the rona had all but broken it, and if the US would break down if it tried to do UHC (like many other countries do successfully without going full Stalin and gulaging 948473948363838366484747484 people) then that's a damning indictment of the US more than it is of UHC. Let's not even dive down into the cluster**** that is real wages/purchasing power or housing costs because that is very depressing. Edited January 13, 2022 by KP on top of ZA WARUDO "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: You mean Andrew Yang? What did he say that he was right about, I found him to be well meaning but I dont agree with much of what he suggests The Forward Party. I agree with all of his political positions: The party's platform includes instituting 18-year term limits for members of Congress.[11] It also seeks to establish a new cabinet-level Department of Technology. The party supports civic juries and advocates for a "citizens' portal". The Forward Party supports data as a property right.[17] The PAC calls for an economy based on "human-centered capitalism" and the enactment of universal basic income.[7][18] The PAC's platform also expresses support for alternative forms of measuring economic progress.[17] Additionally, the Forward Party's website advocates automatic tax filing.[19] The party also states that it is in favor of "reasonable and rational" regulation of cryptocurrencies.[20] The Forward Party supports the implementation of a universal health care system.[21] The party's platform encourages states to adopt nonpartisan primaries and implement ranked-choice voting.[7][18] The party also supports independent redistricting commissions and public finance reform in the form of democracy dollars.[17] The party encourages people to maintain their membership in the Democratic and Republican parties as to not disenfranchise them by leaving them unable to vote in party primaries.[8][22] As a consequence, the Forward Party plans to endorse candidates from both parties as well as independents who advocate for the core values rather than field their own.[8] But ESPECIALLY I want to line my pockets with UBI and UHC. If he can get around to it I will also accept UFE (universal free education / student loan forgiveness) and UFH (universal free houses / mortgage forgiveness). 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 13 minutes ago, Gfted1 said: The Forward Party. I agree with all of his political positions: But ESPECIALLY I want to line my pockets with UBI and UHC. If he can get around to it I will also accept UFE (universal free education / student loan forgiveness) and UFH (universal free houses / mortgage forgiveness). Does this mean we are going to entice you into voting? Because no vote...no free things from government "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, KP on top of ZA WARUDO said: I assume so, unless he was mortally offended at Gfted1's desire to like posts more than once. Regardless, it absolutely encapsulates what Raithe's image is poking at, that invoking failings of socialist countries in response to criticism of failings capitalist countries isn't very effective. Like just the healthcare system in the US was absolutely insane before the rona had all but broken it, and if the US would break down if it tried to do UHC (like many other countries do successfully without going full Stalin and gulaging 948473948363838366484747484 people) then that's a damning indictment of the US more than it is of UHC. Let's not even dive down into the cluster**** that is real wages/purchasing power or housing costs because that is very depressing. I'd actually say Covid is an example of what we can accomplish in this country when we stop worrying about profit margins in the US. It varies by state, but we have thrown together a massive operation of testing and vaccinations that has managed to reach over 60% of the country in less than a year, and it is offered freely. I've been nothing but impressed by the process that has helped my entire family get vaccinated and tested regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Gfted1 said: Yang was right the entire time. My first thought was 3 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 47 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Does this mean we are going to entice you into voting? Because no vote...no free things from government Nah, I wont bother until theres a candidate that I really want. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 A bit past it's due date. Time for a new thread and... I was about to say, something new. Not sure about that one actually Next thread: “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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