The All Things Political Topic - All people love themselves too much to be changed by something as simple as love.

[Gorth]

Just when you thought Djokovic was the most hated man in Australia....

https://doublebaytoday.com/latest-polling-shows-more-australians-want-scott-morrison-deported-than-novak-djokovic/

Polling company Newspoll interviewed a random sample of 5,600 Australian voters, asking who they’d like to deport more.

“It was a tight contest, but 52% of respondents chose Scott Morrison,” says Newspoll’s Lyle Sims. “That’s 4 percentage points more than Novak Djokovic.”

The result will come as a major wake up call for the coalition, just months out from the federal election.

 

I stand corrected, Scott Morrison might be the most hated man in Australia. The upcoming election is going to be interesting. One can always hope he's gone for good and the Australian Liberal Party gets relegated to the history books. Stories to scare kids with in the future.

[Chairchucker]

Hating our politicians is what we do best.

[Elerond]

2 hours ago, rjshae said:

Statistics can be manipulated. Do you have a source for this?

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/

It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k.

They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/

It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k.

They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones

Please tell me we not suggesting Venezuela is your example of a well run Socialist country? Dont citizens  have to want to live in country, the economy can't collapse and their shouldn't  be tens of thousands of people immigrating before we sing the praises of any government ?

[Gorth]

52 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Please tell me we not suggesting Venezuela is your example of a well run Socialist country? Dont citizens  have to want to live in country, the economy can't collapse and their shouldn't  be tens of thousands of people immigrating before we sing the praises of any government ?

No, Venezuela is not a good example. Nor is Cuba, although you could argue 50 years of near total blockade has done more to hurt Cubans than the actual politics.

From worldpopulationreview.com.com

 

Failed Socialist Countries

The largest of the failed socialist countries is the Soviet Union, which fell in 1991. Following World War II, the United States helped rebuild Western European countries, all of whom were free marketing economies that rebuilt rapidly by establishing the European Union and trading with one another. On the other hand, the Soviet Union seized government control of Eastern European nations, all of which became socialist states. These included: Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, and Ukraine. While East Germany reunified with West Germany and joined the thriving EU economy, the rest of the Eastern European countries faced economic hardship after the Soviet Union fell. Many of these countries remain the poorest European countries today.

Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela are currently socialist states facing their own economic crises deemed a result of socialism.

Successful Socialist Countries

Some argue that there has been no completely socialist country that has been successful, only countries that have seen success in adopting socialist policies.

Bolivia is an example of a prosperous socialist country. Bolivia has drastically cut extreme poverty and has the highest GDP growth rate in South America.

Other countries that have adopted and enacted socialist ideas and policies to various degrees, and have seen success in improving their societies by doing so, are Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.

[BruceVC]

35 minutes ago, Gorth said:

No, Venezuela is not a good example. Nor is Cuba, although you could argue 50 years of near total blockade has done more to hurt Cubans than the actual politics.

From worldpopulationreview.com.com

 

Failed Socialist Countries

The largest of the failed socialist countries is the Soviet Union, which fell in 1991. Following World War II, the United States helped rebuild Western European countries, all of whom were free marketing economies that rebuilt rapidly by establishing the European Union and trading with one another. On the other hand, the Soviet Union seized government control of Eastern European nations, all of which became socialist states. These included: Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, and Ukraine. While East Germany reunified with West Germany and joined the thriving EU economy, the rest of the Eastern European countries faced economic hardship after the Soviet Union fell. Many of these countries remain the poorest European countries today.

Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela are currently socialist states facing their own economic crises deemed a result of socialism.

Successful Socialist Countries

Some argue that there has been no completely socialist country that has been successful, only countries that have seen success in adopting socialist policies.

Bolivia is an example of a prosperous socialist country. Bolivia has drastically cut extreme poverty and has the highest GDP growth rate in South America.

Other countries that have adopted and enacted socialist ideas and policies to various degrees, and have seen success in improving their societies by doing so, are Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.

Yes I agree with this and I also agree that hybrid socialist models like some of the examples you mention absolutely work. We have discussed at length the success of the Nordic countries which are Socialist\Capitalist hybrids IMO meaning they have adopted socialist ideas but these countries dont go around nationalizing or stealing the assets of foreign investors like we have seen in Cuba and  Venezuela

Because what is the definition of socialism? If you think  that socialism is defined as the state having control over everything then it will fail as we have seen throughout history with China being the exception but who wants to live in China?

So if you mean socialism like in the Nordic countries then yes it can succeed and be beneficial but these models are not like the socialist failures of Venezuela where the state not only ignored the rule of law and order but also decided that nationalization was fine. Citizens  and investors have to buy into these systems and not be forced to comply by the state and security forces

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, Gorth said:

Just when you thought Djokovic was the most hated man in Australia....

https://doublebaytoday.com/latest-polling-shows-more-australians-want-scott-morrison-deported-than-novak-djokovic/

Polling company Newspoll interviewed a random sample of 5,600 Australian voters, asking who they’d like to deport more.

“It was a tight contest, but 52% of respondents chose Scott Morrison,” says Newspoll’s Lyle Sims. “That’s 4 percentage points more than Novak Djokovic.”

The result will come as a major wake up call for the coalition, just months out from the federal election.

 

I stand corrected, Scott Morrison might be the most hated man in Australia. The upcoming election is going to be interesting. One can always hope he's gone for good and the Australian Liberal Party gets relegated to the history books. Stories to scare kids with in the future.

@Gorth and  @Chairchucker

Do you guys now feel your government is going to far with this Djokovic issue, meaning its time to accept he should be able to play after the ruling of the Oz judge. But apparently Djokovic can still be deported 

I am looking for your personal views as citizens and not what the general  public sentiment is or isn't ?

[Gorth]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

I am looking for your personal views as citizens and not what the general  public sentiment is or isn't ?

Entirely personal view... I find the guy disgusting and hope he gets deported. Unhappy that the Victorian government didn't narrow down the exceptions to the vaccine requirements better. Thaat being said, I think even the Serbian PM may have second thoughts about how great a man he is, as it looks like he may have given false Visa declarations, having traveled around while being Covid positive. Not only that, but being seen mingling with people with no distancing and no mask (and no vaccination) 24 hours after having receive his positive test result. I.e. knowingly exposing other people to the virus.

[Gorth]

20 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes I agree with this and I also agree that hybrid socialist models like some of the examples you mention absolutely work. We have discussed at length the success of the Nordic countries which are Socialist\Capitalist hybrids IMO meaning they have adopted socialist ideas but these countries dont go around nationalizing or stealing the assets of foreign investors like we have seen in Cuba and  Venezuela

Because what is the definition of socialism? If you think  that socialism is defined as the state having control over everything then it will fail as we have seen throughout history with China being the exception but who wants to live in China?

So if you mean socialism like in the Nordic countries then yes it can succeed and be beneficial but these models are not like the socialist failures of Venezuela where the state not only ignored the rule of law and order but also decided that nationalization was fine. Citizens  and investors have to buy into these systems and not be forced to comply by the state and security forces

A nice definition of socialism... (from a comparison to communism)

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448

 Key Similarities

Communism and socialism both grew out of grass-roots opposition to the exploitation of workers by wealthy businesses during the Industrial Revolution. Both assume that all goods and services will be produced by government-controlled institutions or collective organizations rather than by privately-owned businesses. In addition, the central government is mainly responsible for all aspects of economic planning, including matters of supply and demand.

Key Differences

Under communism, the people are compensated or provided for based on their needs. In a pure communist society, the government provides most or all food, clothing, housing and other necessities based on what it considers to be the needs of the people. Socialism is based on the premise the people will be compensated based on their level of individual contribution to the economy. Effort and innovation are thus rewarded under socialism.

 

What tends to work better (compared to the above)

 What Is a Social Democracy?

Democratic socialism is an economic, social, and political ideology holding that while both the society and economy should be run democratically, they should be dedicated to meeting the needs of the people as a whole, rather than encouraging individual prosperity as in capitalism. Democratic socialists advocate the transition of society from capitalism to socialism through existing participatory democratic processes, rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism. Universally-used services such as housing, utilities, mass transit, and health care are distributed by the government, while consumer goods are distributed by a capitalistic free market. 

[BruceVC]

20 minutes ago, Gorth said:

 

 

 What Is a Social Democracy?

Democratic socialism is an economic, social, and political ideology holding that while both the society and economy should be run democratically, they should be dedicated to meeting the needs of the people as a whole, rather than encouraging individual prosperity as in capitalism. Democratic socialists advocate the transition of society from capitalism to socialism through existing participatory democratic processes, rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism. Universally-used services such as housing, utilities, mass transit, and health care are distributed by the government, while consumer goods are distributed by a capitalistic free market. 

I like this definition of Social Democracy as this is how I see the Nordic countries? I hope @Elerond and @Zoraptor read this link 

I particularly agree with the point " rather than revolution as characterized by orthodox Marxism " 

The idea that somehow  a revolution   by workers and  policies of forced  nationalization( never forget this will always be seen as theft of assets by any investor )  is going to lead to a positive economic outcome  is just rhetoric and fantasy 

 

 

[Chairchucker]

Re: Djokavic; boot him. The process that led to his initial visa cancellation may have been flawed, but there is still ample reason (i.e., him being a lying jerk) to deny it a second go round.

 

Re: socialism/capitalism etc, I think while the terms are useful in terms of a shorthand description of certain policies, they can also be a hindrance, in that people will just play word association bingo and go 'oh that particular policy used the key word 'social', it must be socialism and therefore bad', instead of considering the policies on their merits and examining how they've fared when they've been used elsewhere.

[Gfted1]

Yang was right the entire time.  

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Yang was right the entire time.  

You mean Andrew Yang? What did he say that he was right about, I found him to be well meaning but I dont agree with much of what he suggests 

[rjshae]

13 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

They're WHO figures for 2018. [should say, I haven't directly looked them up to check, only seen them cited as such]

Most of the world's socialist countries have the best food security they've had in their history, now. You can say what you want about Mao- and let's be honest, most of the negatives are richly deserved- but China hasn't had a major famine since his reforms despite very very regularly having them before hand. Of course that's partly due to the Green Revolution and international freight, but there are still plenty of places that do get famine. Most of which are, well, capitalist. The bigger argument is whether China is actually socialist or not.

Note that I was speaking very specifically about central-planning socialism, which in a number of cases has a very dark history of starvation of its populace. Not hybrid-style socialism.

[rjshae]

12 hours ago, Elerond said:

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrition/by-country/

It seem that I looked wrong line for Venezuela. Correct one is 1.97 per 100k.

They use WHO's numbers, which of course can be wrong but I have not seen better ones

I think that's what you had. Anyway, 2018 was roughly when the starvation in Venezuela began to be at a critical level. That was prior to the pandemic, and the numbers are likely worse now.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22646&LangID=E

[Malcador]

16 hours ago, rjshae said:

Yep, you get guaranteed health care while you're starving to death. Lucky you. 

Interesting way to look at it.

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

Note that I was speaking very specifically about central-planning socialism, which in a number of cases has a very dark history of starvation of its populace. Not hybrid-style socialism.

Was your initial post about Venezuela in response to Raithe's image?

I imagine it probably wasn't, but it did come across that way because the two posts were so close together. Anyway, in the US we have quite a few socialist programs to deal with housing, food, and medical care. They just tend to be local and small scale, particularly compared to the profit margins and big business models that dominate housing, food, and medicine.

So yeah, I don't think anyone outside of the extreme ends of the political spectrum is arguing for a full central planning socialism system in the US. But I sure would like a decent Universal Health Care system in place before I get too old and my maintenance costs start to skyrocket.

[BruceVC]

https://www.outa.co.za/blog/newsroom-1/post/court-declares-aarto-unconstitutional-and-invalid-1113

Great news, our high court has declared the AARTO system of penalizing drivers with a demerit system of 12 points unconstitutional. I always believe human rights lawyers get somethings right 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

39 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

Was your initial post about Venezuela in response to Raithe's image?

I assume so, unless he was mortally offended at Gfted1's desire to like posts more than once. 

Regardless, it absolutely encapsulates what Raithe's image is poking at, that invoking failings of socialist countries in response to criticism of failings capitalist countries isn't very effective. Like just the healthcare system in the US was absolutely insane before the rona had all but broken it, and if the US would break down if it tried to do UHC (like many other countries do successfully without going full Stalin and gulaging 948473948363838366484747484 people) then that's a damning indictment of the US more than it is of UHC. Let's not even dive down into the cluster**** that is real wages/purchasing power or housing costs because that is very depressing.

Edited January 13, 2022 by KP on top of ZA WARUDO

[Gfted1]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

You mean Andrew Yang? What did he say that he was right about, I found him to be well meaning but I dont agree with much of what he suggests 

The Forward Party. I agree with all of his political positions:

The party's platform includes instituting 18-year term limits for members of Congress.[11] It also seeks to establish a new cabinet-level Department of Technology. The party supports civic juries and advocates for a "citizens' portal". The Forward Party supports data as a property right.[17] The PAC calls for an economy based on "human-centered capitalism" and the enactment of universal basic income.[7][18] The PAC's platform also expresses support for alternative forms of measuring economic progress.[17] Additionally, the Forward Party's website advocates automatic tax filing.[19] The party also states that it is in favor of "reasonable and rational" regulation of cryptocurrencies.[20] The Forward Party supports the implementation of a universal health care system.[21] The party's platform encourages states to adopt nonpartisan primaries and implement ranked-choice voting.[7][18] The party also supports independent redistricting commissions and public finance reform in the form of democracy dollars.[17] The party encourages people to maintain their membership in the Democratic and Republican parties as to not disenfranchise them by leaving them unable to vote in party primaries.[8][22] As a consequence, the Forward Party plans to endorse candidates from both parties as well as independents who advocate for the core values rather than field their own.[8]

But ESPECIALLY I want to line my pockets with UBI and UHC. If he can get around to it I will also accept UFE (universal free education / student loan forgiveness) and UFH (universal free houses / mortgage forgiveness).

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

The Forward Party. I agree with all of his political positions:

 

 

But ESPECIALLY I want to line my pockets with UBI and UHC. If he can get around to it I will also accept UFE (universal free education / student loan forgiveness) and UFH (universal free houses / mortgage forgiveness).

Does this mean we are going to entice you into voting? Because no vote...no free things  from government 

[Hurlshort]

36 minutes ago, KP on top of ZA WARUDO said:

I assume so, unless he was mortally offended at Gfted1's desire to like posts more than once. 

Regardless, it absolutely encapsulates what Raithe's image is poking at, that invoking failings of socialist countries in response to criticism of failings capitalist countries isn't very effective. Like just the healthcare system in the US was absolutely insane before the rona had all but broken it, and if the US would break down if it tried to do UHC (like many other countries do successfully without going full Stalin and gulaging 948473948363838366484747484 people) then that's a damning indictment of the US more than it is of UHC. Let's not even dive down into the cluster**** that is real wages/purchasing power or housing costs because that is very depressing.

I'd actually say Covid is an example of what we can accomplish in this country when we stop worrying about profit margins in the US. It varies by state, but we have thrown together a massive operation of testing and vaccinations that has managed to reach over 60% of the country in less than a year, and it is offered freely. I've been nothing but impressed by the process that has helped my entire family get vaccinated and tested regularly. 

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Yang was right the entire time.  

My first thought was

 

[Gfted1]

47 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Does this mean we are going to entice you into voting? Because no vote...no free things  from government 

Nah, I wont bother until theres a candidate that I really want.

[Gorth]

A bit past it's due date. Time for a new thread and... I was about to say, something new. Not sure about that one actually

 

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