The All Things Political Topic - All people love themselves too much to be changed by something as simple as love.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Note the use of the word ‘acquiring’. It’s spelled differently from ‘bringing’

nevertheless is a valid point. as stated previously, while am knowing the law, the facts o' the case and the case itself interested us not at all.

unfortunate, looking further into facts does not improve our opinion o' kyle.

"Black said they discussed knowing it was illegal, but agreed Rittenhouse wouldn't get the gun himself until he turned 18. They shot a couple hundred rounds that week, Black testified, and that was the only time Rittenhouse had used the weapon until Aug. 25, 2020."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/11/02/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-dominick-black-first-witness/6258860001/

so when kyle retrieved the ar-15 from the black residence, he likely believed he were breaking the law and the reason he were acquiring the rifle were not to protect his father but to confront protesters who might be damaging personal property: cars. kyle's judgment is even more suspect knowing what we learned 'cause we bothered to check eye-roll inducing facts.

as we keep repeating, far too many conservatives is pretending as if legal = righteous. this became a binary us v. them issue all too quick and so those defenders o' kyle cannot accept that legal exoneration don't make kyle anything less than a punk who willing engaged in reckless behaviour which all too predictable ended bad.  there should be universal condemnation o' kyle's behavior, 'cause is no good argument for defending rittenhouse behaviour. even if you believe rittenhouse shoulda' been found not guilty o' murder, is no way to defend his behaviour as anything other than wrong. can be wrong or bad and nevertheless not deserve to go to prison.

'course is also worth noting the charges 'gainst black is still valid, which makes the judge ruling on the weapon possession issue all the more baffling. is illegal, unquestionable illegal, to buy an ar-15 for a seventeen-year-old, but judge says is perfect legal for a minor to own such a weapon. 

however, am gonna also observe how more than a few liberals is not learning from this anymore than similar incidents from the past + half decade.

the ps from the above is the relevant portion.

the extremist right groups is organized. individually the proud boys and similar folks is, with few exceptions, morons. organization makes 'em more effective than the educated dorks running around in black outfits and claiming to be fighting fascism. the rittenhouse verdict is not some kinda new thing or a signal to militia they may confront protesters. *snort* people have not been paying attention to the extremist play book for at least the past six years.  this is why our military not need geniuses to be effective. disorganization may protect a group from government censure, but it also makes far more difficult to achieve goals. on the other hand, organization and training effective replace and is frequent superior to native intelligence.

too many liberals is gonna read news stories 'bout the rittenhouse verdict which align with their own beliefs and feel justified in being outraged. explain as white privilege or just another example o' a broken justice system. those folks will post something on facebook or retweet a story they believe is insightful, then go back to watching "grownish," or whatever. 

what happened with the rittenhouse verdict, as we keep saying, should not have been a surprise. if you got multiple armed people in an inherently tense situation and somebody ends up getting shot and killed, then expect that w/o compelling evidence to the contrary, self defense is gonna be an option. we got a well armed society and as such situations such as were prevalent in kenosha during the protests is gonna result in reasonable people being afraid... or at least believable afraid enough to exceed burden for criminal prosecution, a burden which is the not insignificant beyond a reasonable doubt.

am not concerned proud boys is gonna change their tactics based on rittenhouse, 'cause the proud boys has been doing as rittenhouse (and worse) for at least 6 years. you'all realize the proud boys want armed conflict, yes? they has been showing up to protests armed and hoping for confrontation for years. should be more concerned that disorganized protesters don't learn from the situation and in light o' rittenhouse more o' them decide they too should be armed to protect selves... 'cause is no way that leads to more corpses, right?

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

The above post cut off the tail end of previous thread to start a new...

 

[Gorth]

Speaking of Proud Boys and other militant far right groups who thrive (and instigate) violence and conflict...

I recognize the pattern below from Melbourne and Sydney where the situation was very similar. Riots, violence, vandalism, street fights. When the Australian police eventually got the bottom of it, Murdoch supported alt right groups, neo nazis and similar societal fringe groups leading from behind, using the conflict they instigate as a recruiting ground for new members who are not afraid of using violence to achieve their goals.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/20/vienna-austria-covid-lockdown-protests

Thousands of protesters have gathered in Austria’s capital, Vienna, after the government announced a nationwide lockdown to contain the quickly rising coronavirus infections in the country.

The far-right opposition Freedom Party is among those who have called for Saturday’s protest and have pledged to combat the new restrictions.

 

They mean it literally when they say combat the new restrictions...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59355950

Dutch police have shot and wounded at least two people after rioting erupted in Rotterdam over new Covid-19 measures.

Protesters threw rocks and fireworks at them and set police cars ablaze.

Hundreds of protesters had gathered to show their anger at government plans for a Covid vaccine pass, and a ban on fireworks on New Year's Eve.

The Netherlands imposed a three-week partial Covid lockdown last week as cases surged.

Seven people were injured in total and at least 20 arrested in a night

 

Sadly no details in the BBC article about who was behind the riots in Rotterdam.

 

[Raithe]

Something that slipped by last month...

BBC - Hong Kong University orders Tiananmen statues removal

The University of Hong Kong has said a statue commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre must be removed.

The Pillar of Shame depicts dozens of torn and twisted bodies and was at the forefront of vigils held in the city to commemorate the 1989 crackdown.

The university said the decision was "based on the latest risk assessment and legal advice" without expanding on this explanation.

Beijing has recently moved to silence opposition to its rule in Hong Kong.

Tiananmen is still a heavily censored topic in modern China. The anniversary was marked annually in Hong Kong until it was banned by authorities in 2020, citing Covid measures.

Earlier this year, nine pro-democracy activists were sentenced to between six and 10 months in prison for taking part in the banned 2020 vigil.

[Darkpriest]

Such things, only in US (or some other 3rd world countries) 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/shots-fired-flash-mob-raid-nordstrom-upscale-california-town

[BruceVC]

@Gorth

I wanted to clarify something you mentioned on the closed thread and I have noticed you are misunderstanding something  important about my views on BLM or I am not raising some of my criticisms about BLM in the right way. 

You seem to think I dont care about the killing of BLM protestors like in this Kyle incident ?I dont want the killings of any protestors but more important I need to reiterate my view of BLM because that is where I think the confusion comes from

I am not opposed to BLM in respects to its original genesis and what it stands for , end of the day I support any SJ movement that is about a legitimate  objective to address some bigotry or make the world better. I have 3-4 issues with some of the BLM realities but that doesnt mean I dont support the movement on other things

This matters because their are people who are vociferously opposed to BLM and they will always criticize it on every level and in the USA this has become part of the  Conservative\right normal mantra for political  speeches and invective when it comes to what the left\liberals  has created that they believe is  dysfunctional   and will lead to the collapse of the USA. But I dont think that about BLM as I mentioned

My issues with it only apply to those protests that are violent and where their is looting but I forgot to mention in our last chat that its only a relatively small group of people in every protest that is involved in criminality.Most people are just protesting and raising an issue, even if the issue is not necessarily valid, and they have every right to protest. I realized I didnt explain this but I assumed people knew I was talking about the criminal element and not the vast number of well meaning protestors. 

And why has this become a talking point and cause of great anxiety in the USA in certain states?

Its because  through the years certain BLM  protests have had days, weeks and even months of protracted violence and its seems to occur in mostly Democrat controlled cities and states where its appears that the mayors dont want to antagonize the protestors and the BLM movement due to the possible political backlash and how Trump also weaponized BLM so naturally many Democrats battle find a line between the rule of law and order and doing what Trump use to suggest so local authorities are reluctant to act so this typically emboldens the criminal element. 

So I am not opposed to BLM, just certain protests and what they can lead to

But we must also remember that much of these political debates in the USA have become uniquely dichotomous and some people on the left and right refuse to engage in any debate with each other and intolerance is rife on both sides. I dont support that type of impasse and I firmly believe in engaging with people on certain issues but that means I accept peoples views will be different to mine and thats fine 

So when someone like me raises issues with BLM many people on the left\liberals assume Im being racist or I am a Trump  supporter and wont respond or will immediately think I am motivated by something other than what I am raising

Unfortunately I cant change peoples assumptions about what I say especially when it comes to the USA because that is how many people react but none of us have to repeat this bad habit of no longer engaging in debates when it comes to view different to ours

And finally, I mentioned I have 3-4 issues with some of the BLM realities. I mentioned the violent protests and here is another one. Sometimes their is a general comment from BLM but because their are no leadership structures or official commentary from leaders  about what is said the comments come from a BLM twitter  group and get accepted by most as " what BLM said "  but its just some people within the movement who decided to comment and not really authoritative or official from the leaders....because their are no official leaders which is very problematic compared to any successful human rights movement in history

https://nypost.com/2021/11/19/kyle-rittenhouse-verdict-protesters-furious-but-not-surprised/

But " BLM " responded to the verdict with some the following below which I quoted and this type of hyperbole and exaggeration I have an issue with because its so extreme

 

Black Lives Matter’s official Twitter page echoed the rage, writing, “This is how the systems conspire to entrench #WhiteSupremacy.

“Reminder: the system is working exactly as it is meant to. The system was always meant to protect and uphold white supremacy.”

Former NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick, who sparked controversy for kneeling during the national anthem at games to protest police brutality and racism, tweeted, “We just witnessed a system built on white supremacy validate the terroristic acts of a white supremacist.

Some people will have no  issue with these comments and thats fine. But basically the verdict was about a lack of real evidence that Kyle had killed people outside of self-defense. I had no real view on his intention because how do any of us know the truth but at the end of trial and based on several things that occured I do believe he feared for his life

But to suggest the entire US court system is built on white supremacy but only when the ruling goes against what some people were expecting I think is disingenuous and  counterproductive to  understand the facts or evidence of how verdicts are reached

Anyway its not all BLM who would make such a public comment and  I am sure you can see how this just spreads misinformation about the importance of any court ruling and how jury's work 

I hope this post clears up any misunderstandings you felt I had about BLM where you may  have thought I dont like anything about the movement 

 

 

[Pidesco]

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/concern-troll/

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/concern-troll/

I am not sure if you joking with this post, being helpful or you are suggesting this is what I am doing? But in the interest of adding to my previous post I am going to assume you think this is appropriate to what I am doing and sorry if I have misunderstood you post but as I said other people raise similar issues with some of what I post so this is not about you but rather a response to them so please dont think Im upset 

This type of  post is an example of the current intolerance and lack of understanding with certain global debates. Firstly you using an Internet colloquialism to describe something that is about RL realities ....who actually would use the words " concern troll " in a normal debate?

Also despite the fact I explained what my views on BLM were you haven't asked any questions or raised any concerns ? And like in the USA this is partly the issue with some of the left vs right ideological debates. And thats fine, its your choice how you personally engage with people. I continue to respect the art of debate and I enjoy them and many people share my views about the importance of robust debate 

And also its very easy to say " I dont like BLM at all and think its a deeply flawed movement" ......I really would say that if I believed it. Most people dont do what I do in the sense their views are more definitive around a binary view of like or dislike  but BLM is too complicated to not see the good with the bad  

But I dont which is why I feel I need to clarify certain views people think  I have. But as usual I only generally feel the need to clarify with come people and some debates 

 

[Darkpriest]

 

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/11/20/rittenhouse-2-0-threats-of-new-litigation-fly-in-the-aftermath-of-rittenhouse-verdict/

Seems like a reasonable summary for what might happen next and various difficulties, but i guess @Gromnir would be able to comment on each of these with more detail with much more ease thab I would be ever be able to interpret based on where I sit with my level of legal knowledge 

[Darkpriest]

So what needs to be sacrificed on the altar of 'wokeness' ? 

Aparently safety of women

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/biological-female-prisoners-sue-california-after-officials-altered-complaints-over-trans

 

Anyway, time to get some rest. I have a feeling this might be an interesting week ahead. 

[Gromnir]

Why We Are Leaving Fox News

"Over the past five years, some of Fox’s top opinion hosts amplified the false claims and bizarre narratives of Donald Trump or offered up their own in his service. In this sense, the release of Patriot Purge wasn’t an isolated incident, it was merely the most egregious example of a longstanding trend. Patriot Purge creates an alternative history of January 6, contradicted not just by common sense, not just by the testimony and on-the-record statements of many participants, but by the reporting of the news division of Fox News itself. "

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

Why We Are Leaving Fox News

"Over the past five years, some of Fox’s top opinion hosts amplified the false claims and bizarre narratives of Donald Trump or offered up their own in his service. In this sense, the release of Patriot Purge wasn’t an isolated incident, it was merely the most egregious example of a longstanding trend. Patriot Purge creates an alternative history of January 6, contradicted not just by common sense, not just by the testimony and on-the-record statements of many participants, but by the reporting of the news division of Fox News itself. "

HA! Good Fun!

But Gromnir you dont want to get too pulled into the whole " is FOX News really a news channel or is it opinion pieces and pandering to the more conservative views in the USA "'

  But it isn't interested in trying to help its viewers become better people and Roger Ayles called it when said " most Americans dont want the truth, they want theater " 

So I think this latest reason for some people leaving now is not a good enough reason because FOX started becoming inconsistent with the truth for years and some people left but most stayed.....only people who lack fortitude and belief in the importance of FOX would leave 

And Im sure you know this but Tucker Carlson is a very talented, confident and convincing Conservative commentator but you just ignore anything he says that is targeted at the right. But I have seen him comment on things that I agree with or are interesting like his interview with Jordan Peterson and his latest book but I dont agree with most of his opinion political views

But there is no point really getting upset with the FOX narrative because Ayles changed the nature of how the station reports on news and people still like it and financially support it

But theirs  one thing Ayles never considered and that was " but its better to guide the  Conservative narrative without hyperbole and feeding peoples views that are rational and irrational "

[Darkpriest]

Disgusting deplorable animal, whomever was responsible for the tragedy at Waukesha, WI Christmas parade..... 

[Darkpriest]

@BruceVC

Something from your side of the world. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/very-violent-south-africa-sees-nearly-10-000-rapes-over-6-100-murders-in-3-months/2425716

Comments? 

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

@BruceVC

Something from your side of the world. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/very-violent-south-africa-sees-nearly-10-000-rapes-over-6-100-murders-in-3-months/2425716

Comments? 

Yes this is true and its one of the real problems we grapple with which is high levels of violent crime. The high  murder rate is due to gang related violence so it tends to increase the number and the reality is you live your life and its not like you see people getting killed 

The high levels of sexaul violence is a different issue and concern and we have a small group of men who dont understand what gender equality is and end up hating women for changes in society. The crime of rape is normally not about sex but rather a form of control and domination that men have used as form of hatred towards women

But basically everyone in the media, government  or who is involved in the SA narrative is always opposed to this crime but since we not the rapists we dont seem to achieve much change on our overall number. So this problem continues 

[BruceVC]

On 11/21/2021 at 3:35 AM, Gromnir said:

 

 

I meant to add how much I appreciate these types of honest and constructive views from Obama and especially when its about an aberration in the SJ narrative and he is correct to be concerned how this will effect the overall success of being "woke " and other views of addressing inequality in the US

This is a similar to my concerns I have noticed and raised about how some on the  left react to certain  things like verdicts they dont like  and the nature of that debate about these verdicts 

And  then the right has its problems with some with  complete denialism of a reality like Biden winning and then believing everything you lose is a deep state issue and their is no  truth in the current America

But this is more extreme views from both left and right and not everyone  

 

[BruceVC]

I feel compelled to say something important so people are  not shocked and suggest the US  court system is biased or broken once a verdict is reached 

The Ahmaud Arbery ruling will also find the 3 x accused innocent of murder .....it was a citizen  arrest, the one guy explained it....Im joking obviously 

The father and son should definitely be found guilty and I dont know what the other guy did? But this case the evidence is almost irrefutable. They provoked a violent attack from him when they were the ones who created the violence in the first place. And there is  nothing more annoying than ignorant people trying to lie in court....the son claims they were attempting a citizen arrest yet he also admitted to the prosecutor they didnt announce this so no one knew 

This is a killing based on racism, I will be very surprised if they walk

 

 

[Amentep]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I dont know what the other guy did?

William Bryan is alleged to have participated in the events leading up to the shooting (specifically, he joined chase/rundown that the McMichaels initiated although he didn't know why they were chasing Aubrey and allegedly hit Aubrey with his truck as a part of that chase); during the actual shooting he was recording the incident on his phone.

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, Amentep said:

William Bryan is alleged to have participated in the events leading up to the shooting (specifically, he joined chase/rundown that the McMichaels initiated although he didn't know why they were chasing Aubrey and allegedly hit Aubrey with his truck as a part of that chase); during the actual shooting he was recording the incident on his phone.

Yes that is what I thought he said but I am not sure what he is saying but I doubt he will be charged ?

Amentep I know you dont normally comment on these outcomes but since you live in Georgia you are allowed to give your view Do you think they will be found guilty and what is the general view from people you know if it comes up ?

[Amentep]

6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes that is what I thought he said but I am not sure what he is saying but I doubt he will be charged ?

Bryan has been charged, and is on trial with the McMichaels.  He tried to get a plea deal but it was rejected.

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Amentep I know you dont normally comment on these outcomes but since you live in Georgia you are allowed to give your view Do you think they will be found guilty and what is the general view from people you know if it comes up ?

Most people I know have little sympathy for the 'citizen's arrest' defense since they apparently never declared they were making a citizen's arrest when they tried to stop Aubrey nor did they actually witness a crime to which declaring a citizen's request would make sense.  That the elder McMichael was an ex-police officer who'd worked for the district attorney, there's a general feeling that (a) he should have known better than to chase after him in a half-assed vigilante manner and the (b) the old boy system tried to protect him and his son by squashing the initial investigation.

But not being on the jury and hearing the evidence an arguments, its hard to say what actually will happen.

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Bryan has been charged, and is on trial with the McMichaels.  He tried to get a plea deal but it was rejected.

Most people I know have little sympathy for the 'citizen's arrest' defense since they apparently never declared they were making a citizen's arrest when they tried to stop Aubrey nor did they actually witness a crime to which declaring a citizen's request would make sense.  That the elder McMichael was an ex-police officer who'd worked for the district attorney, there's a general feeling that (a) he should have known better than to chase after him in a half-assed vigilante manner and the (b) the old boy system tried to protect him and his son by squashing the initial investigation.

But not being on the jury and hearing the evidence an arguments, its hard to say what actually will happen.

Yes the case seems clear on a guilty verdict but its better to wait and see the final view from the jury 

[Malcador]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joined-wisconsin-proud-boys-looking-102503395.html

"Their accounts reveal the face of a group that masks itself as a harmless, multiracial drinking club, one that reaches new members by preaching free speech and patriotism. At least in Wisconsin, the men said, the Proud Boys stands less for brotherhood and more for the racial hatred espoused by outmoded organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations.

“Initially it was truly a brotherhood,” Berry said. “But what I experienced was more like a cult.”

Big shock

Edited November 22, 2021 by Malcador

[Gromnir]

13 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But Gromnir you dont want to get too pulled into the whole " is FOX News really a news channel or is it opinion pieces and pandering to the more conservative views in the USA "'

 

...

it's as if you didn't even read the linked material.

as for tucker, if you applaud him 'cause he says stuff you already agree with, that is hardly a meaningful. also, you are demanding scorn from Gromnir if you are seriously balancing tucker's pandemic and january 6 lies with his interview o' jordan peterson. 

how 'bout the ed gavin interview?

or

but no doubt bruce agrees with tucker's take on blm.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

...and Tucker Carlson is sort of par for the course for Fox News (and Sky News and everything else Rupert Murdoch touches). You can almost feel the pitiful screams of your brain cells as they get brutally massacred.

[Hurlshort]

Sometimes it is scary how things haven't changed.