Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Part 2

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

I appreciate the 'bygones be bygones' sentiment, but I'm genuinely curious how you're using her.

I've leaned into the blaster role because that's what her starting build lends itself to, but am open to learning from missed opportunities.

if you really want metamagic, add levels o' arcane trickster and loremaster. 5 levels o' witch, one level o' vivisectionist, then go everything arcane trickster... finish off with loremaster for extra (cheaty or not) feats. nevertheless, am still not taking anything but heighten and perhaps empower even with such a build.

if you keep ember as a witch, she just doesn't have superfluous feats. the owlcat folks gave her the right starting feats with point-blank and precise. obvious you are going with spell focus and greater spell focus and at least one o' the spell penetrations, likely both, yes?  you took selective spell, correct? add heighten as a metamagic as well as weapon focus: ray and improved critical: ray. done. drop a feat somewhere and take elven immunities 'cause against bosses you need every bit o' spell penetration.

is a whole lotta gear in the game which boosts spellcaster fire efficacy and catalogues, particular for spontaneous casters. we load up on such stuff and then blast away at everything. 

if you aren't playing at least core, then you likely don't need greater spell penetration and you can probable skip weapon focus in spite o' her blackened malus. the thing is, shrug off the occasional reflex check pass for chain lightning which she gets freebie with those bracers and maybe during a boss fight she misses a sr check, or two, which in the grand scheme if you is playing normal and has an angel doing storm o' justice won't matter or be noticed, but objective ember is less effective if she don't have boss level sr penetration and ab.

rods is more than enough for meta needs. take heighten... perhaps empower. nothing else needed and each investment in meta requires abandonment o' something else. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps but again, and am not just doing the bygone thing-- if ember is effective for you, then that is good enough. have pointed out previous how our whole build philosophy is based on making boss battles easier, 'cause am not seeing the point to being able to snooze through trash mobs only to be stymied during boss battles. our way is not right.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Gromnir

[Agiel]

Also note that Protective Luck is absolutely baller and with Cackle it can be extended for effectively the entirety of a fight so it's definitely worth investing into the Witch class for as long as you pick those up. Once you start running into enemies with 15 attacks a round Natural 20s become statistically significant and can potentially doom even the most metagame-y Scaled Fist or Instinctual Warrior decoys. With Protective Luck you reduce the probability of Natural 20s to 1/400 on top of its normal benefit of substantially reducing the number of hits scored against your decoys if their AC is still within the range of a roll of 2-19.

[uuuhhii]

no idea how to keep hex up in rtwp

put cackle on auto and cast other hex manually?

always use ember as blaster doesn't use much hex

[Agiel]

As Cackle is a Move action with proper positioning it's relatively trivial to keep active Hexes going while tossing in a Scorching Ray/Hellfire Ray within the same round (also note that Hexes cast prior to combat can have time added with Cackle, so for good measure I add a couple of Cackles on top of the initial cast of Protective Luck before a fight). I play with RTwP on so I have Ember's Cackle on autocast and I've learned to accept that I'm pressing the spacebar about about every 3 seconds on average to micromanage things.

[uuuhhii]

just findout unequip any metamagic rod cause severe stutter for some reason

save become unplayable after this happen to main character

[majestic]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:13 AM, Achilles said:

I've leaned into the blaster role because that's what her starting build lends itself to, but am open to learning from missed opportunities.

The way I see it you can do two things with Ember that justify her party slot. You give her Red Salamander, go full Spell Penetration and Improved Criticals: Ray line of feats, complete with Ascendant Element: Fire, throw her a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer level with Gold and Brass dragon bloodlines, one Loremaster level for an extra feat (use the Sorcerer level for the needed Skill Focus) and top it off with a Second Bloodline: Red mythic feat. Spell Focus: Enchantment and copy it to Evocation through Expanded Arsenal: Evocation. Or the other way around, whatever you fancy.

That leaves you doing acceptable damage (all those bloodlines provide a nice fire damage bonus per die roll) and you can fill the metamagic gaps through rods, while still going what you'd take her into the party for - hexes and crowd control. Evil Eye is a nice debuff, Restless Slumber amounts to a spammable instakill against mook level enemies and Protective Luck and Fortune are also not the worst things to have, and with the setup you can get the occasional Feeblemind to stick against annoying casters.

That leaves you with a few feats to play around, you could take Selective Spell for an easier early game (Web) and easier AoE crowd control.

The other is dropping the occasional fire damage in favor of Spell Focus: Conjuration/Enchantment and focus on more crowd control and augmented summoning (Swap Gold and Brass for Fey and Undead, don't bother with the Loremaster level). Selective Spell also gives you a decent milage out of a lot of spells that would otherwise not just crowd control your enemies.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

5 hours ago, majestic said:

The way I see it you can do two things with Ember that justify her party slot. You give her Red Salamander, go full Spell Penetration and Improved Criticals: Ray line of feats, complete with Ascendant Element: Fire, throw her a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer level with Gold and Brass dragon bloodlines, one Loremaster level for an extra feat (use the Sorcerer level for the needed Skill Focus) and top it off with a Second Bloodline: Red mythic feat. Spell Focus: Enchantment and copy it to Evocation through Expanded Arsenal: Evocation. Or the other way around, whatever you fancy.

That leaves you doing acceptable damage (all those bloodlines provide a nice fire damage bonus per die roll) and you can fill the metamagic gaps through rods, while still going what you'd take her into the party for - hexes and crowd control. Evil Eye is a nice debuff, Restless Slumber amounts to a spammable instakill against mook level enemies and Protective Luck and Fortune are also not the worst things to have, and with the setup you can get the occasional Feeblemind to stick against annoying casters.

That leaves you with a few feats to play around, you could take Selective Spell for an easier early game (Web) and easier AoE crowd control.

The other is dropping the occasional fire damage in favor of Spell Focus: Conjuration/Enchantment and focus on more crowd control and augmented summoning (Swap Gold and Brass for Fey and Undead, don't bother with the Loremaster level). Selective Spell also gives you a decent milage out of a lot of spells that would otherwise not just crowd control your enemies.

So much for Ember being a beacon of redemption and goodness lmao.

[Gromnir]

am suspecting few has read the description o' hellfire ray as they have ember spam the spell.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[ShadySands]

I actually thought about not using hellfire ray on my angel run but there isn't a good functional replacement so I just ignored the RP aspect

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

44 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I actually thought about not using hellfire ray on my angel run but there isn't a good functional replacement so I just ignored the RP aspect

I'm trying to think of a spell that is a better ranged touch attack spell than Hellfire Ray and I can't really think of one. Disintegrate needs a fort save or it sucks, Elemental Assesor is more for procing weaknesses or stopping regen, and Umbral Strike needs a fort save too. Too bad there's no Good alternative, off hand the only really good Good spells that come to mind are Eaglesoul and Burst of Radiance 

[Gromnir]

as noted earlier in the thread, greater shadow evocation is an alternative, but not available 'til late. technical, as is shadow, it is not sending anybody to hell. however, owlcat implementation is such that the spell is in all respects nothing more or less than heightened versions o' the laundry list o' evocation spells available.

as an aside, is a whole lotta fantastic and potential op spells available in wotr. however, given the stat and hp bloat o' boss enemies, at some point you are gonna need to be able to do massive damage to foes and is advantageous if you are able to deliver the pain fast. from a pure damage standpoint, hellfire rays is the obvious choice to dish out hurt-- you need count on your casters to do damage or they is underwhelming during the most challenging combat encounters in the game.

HA! Good Fun!

ps fyi, sorcerer bloodlines which allow conversion of energy types is current not compatible with either of the shadow evocation spells. try and cast a greater shadow evocation hellfire ray as cold, electricity or whatever results in spellcast fail and a wasted spell attempt.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Gromnir

[Agiel]

Ember preaching peace and understanding whilst dispensing literal flames of perdition ("Ite, Maledicti, In Ignem Aeternum") makes one distinctly recall a certain scene from <<Mars Attacks!>>

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Agiel

[uuuhhii]

prefer battering blast than any other ray spell

but not on most caster spelllist

wish nenio can go full arcanist

[Gromnir]

49 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

prefer battering blast than any other ray spell

but not on most caster spelllist

wish nenio can go full arcanist

the problem is boss immunities, which ordinarily include any force effect such as magic missile and battering blast. why? 'cause.

even so, one o' the advantages o' nenio over ember is her flexibility. those sooperpowered gallu demons which you encounter every dozen or so paces late in the game seem to be especial vulnerable to battering blast, and they is one o' the few demons with visible wings which is subject to prone as well. if you have built your nenio as a blaster, then battering blast is actual a good option to take out those particular demons. 'course that is an issue with wotr-- is many foes which have A vulnerability, but none o' that matters if you overwhelm 'em with damage. such a crude approach is universal effective and tends to feel inelegant and a bit mindless. 

curious, while many mid and late game mooks is immune to mind affecting spells and conditions, the demon lords and achievement bosses is mostly vulnerable to such, with the obvious obstacle o' near impossible will saves to be overcome. the thing is, there is ways to generate shaken and fear effects in the game which is not subject to an ordinary saving throw. 

pathfinder is weird, 'cause d&d was weird. just is.

HA! Good Fun!

ps one o' those late game crusade items which disappeared from inventory is now capable o' being researched and you may turn it into a robe which adds 4d6 fire damage to any fire damage spell you cast... 'cause there just weren't enough fire damage boosting items in the game.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Gromnir

[ShadySands]

I was really surprised that there weren't more force spells or a force ascendant element. I'm not familiar with Pathfinder since this is only the second game I've played but the DnD games usually feature more missile and force spells.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I was really surprised that there weren't more force spells or a force ascendant element. I'm not familiar with Pathfinder since this is only the second game I've played but the DnD games usually feature more missile and force spells.

if am having to make a guess, is 'cause empowered and maximized blade barriers is complete cheese. 

pathfinder has most o' the d&d force spells, but by different names. obvious can't call stuff "bigby's __________," in a pathfinder game. is a number o' additional force spells which entered pathfinder with the psychic classes. dunno.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest]

I have a merc that's based around battering blast. With Edge of Force, and again, metamagic feats, he smacks the dickens out of act VI

[Agiel]

Act 3 is done. I'm actually big fan of the Midnight Fane dungeon given how reasonably prepared players can easily overcome (almost, more on that later) all of its challenges at level 14 (side effects of bringing Seelah on a mount _and_ Bismuth may include Tourette's). However, given how Dimensional Doors are disabled in this dungeon I have to admit this is a bit... sadistic on the part of the developers:

Spent one of fifteen-thousand summon creature scrolls I had in my inventory to trigger it, then waited for the heat death of the universe before the acid cleared.

And Playful Darkness down for the count (granted, _only_ on Normal difficulty):

Dropped two Creeping Dooms on him and had Ember spam Hellfire Rays like they were going out of style and finally finishing him off with a Lay On Hands from Seelah.

Unfortunately come time for me to head to the Abyss I neglected to have the Lexicon in my inventory and Galfrey wouldn't let me go back to my chambers to retrieve if from the chest. I was able to add one to my inventory with Toy Box prior to the final fight, so hopefully nothing too f**ky happens as a result of that.

Quote

"So let it be written

So let it be done

To kill the first-born Pharaoh son

I'm creeping death!"

-Camellia channeling James Hetfield, probably

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Agiel

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Agiel said:

I'm actually big fan of the Midnight Fane dungeon given how reasonably prepared players can easily over come (almost) all of its challenges at level 14

I take it you haven't been downstairs

[Agiel]

11 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I take it you haven't been downstairs

Hence, "almost"  

First round I was able to take Playful Darkness down to about half before Nenio and Ember bought it. On the penultimate try I attempted to stack some Siroccos on him, which did kill him but left my entire frontline on Death's Door. Then tried the recommended strategy of filling all of Camellia's level 7 slots with Creeping Doom and was able to get by virtually unscathed. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Agiel

[uuuhhii]

1 hour ago, Agiel said:

Act 3 is done. I'm actually big fan of the Midnight Fane dungeon given how reasonably prepared players can easily overcome (almost, more on that later) all of its challenges at level 14 (side effects of bringing Seelah on a mount _and_ Bismuth may include Tourette's). However, given how Dimensional Doors are disabled in this dungeon I have to admit this is a bit... sadistic on the part of the developers:

Spent one of fifteen-thousand summon creature scrolls I had in my inventory to trigger it, then waited for the heat death of the universe before the acid cleared.

And Playful Darkness down for the count (granted, _only_ on Normal difficulty):

Dropped two Creeping Dooms on him and had Ember spam Hellfire Rays like they were going out of style and finally finishing him off with a Lay On Hands from Seelah.

Unfortunately come time for me to head to the Abyss I neglected to have the Lexicon in my inventory and Galfrey wouldn't let me go back to my chambers to retrieve if from the chest. I was able to add one to my inventory with Toy Box prior to the final fight, so hopefully nothing too f**ky happens as a result of that.

biggest problem of act 3 is that player doesn't know how long they have to wait for all the stuff to trigger

didn't get the dragon egg quest for first two playthrough

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Agiel said:

Hence, "almost"  

First round I was able to take Playful Darkness down to about half before Nenio and Ember bought it. On the penultimate try I attempted to stack some Siroccos on him, which did kill him but left my entire frontline on Death's Door. Then tried the recommended strategy of filling all of Camellia's level 7 slots with Creeping Doom and was able to get by virtually unscathed. 

can't make our self take camellia beyond act i and some limited act ii content, so our favoured strategy for playful darkness involves pillars of life, a sooper intimidator and prayer-- not the spell but actual prayer 'cause a couple bad rolls results in a needed reload. with the aforementioned prayer you may also get lucky on a couple mass heal scroll uses, but those is kinda an expensive option.

is possible to build seelah and/or sosiel into achieving near overwhelming intimidator status. a player character or merc inquisitor or dirge bard is gonna be best options, but understandably not many folks feel comfortable creating a fromage-based intimidator for their main. regardless, pc or companion, need sacrifice one level to get thug, but is worth it to see playful darkness scamper away when it fails the spamable intimidation checks which is not subject to sr and is not actual a will save, which is part o' the reason why the bugged vavakia vandguards you will encounter later in the game is so devastating. and keep in mind the intimidation tactic works 'gainst every demon lord as well. recommendation: use moss pottage camp meal for the stack-with-everything skill boost 'cause every point counts.

why pillars of life?

no save.

no sr.

can cast 'em pre combat and may cast multiple iterations in the exact same location.

am s'posing you may plan ahead and have sosiel prepare pillars scrolls and then have nenio cast 'em... and unless has been fixed, part o' the beauty o' intimidation resulting in fear is that unlike party members, each time playful runs through stacked pillars of life, he/she/it takes damage anew. might wanna check and see how many is purchasable from the cleric in drezen and possible at the temple of the good hunt. pillars not maximized or empowered do 10d8 damage... each. even if has been fixed and you don't get the repeat damage, play in tb means each time playful runs away and then returns, it gets at most a single attack. 

not a you-win button option, but is another workable approach which am having personal used core and hard and it has the advantage o' not depending on camellia.

HA! Good Fun!

ps just checked and arsinoe does not sell pillars of life scrolls, so unless you bring sosiel or have a priest main, you need craft scrolls to make this tactic work. 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Agiel said:

Hence, "almost"  

First round I was able to take Playful Darkness down to about half before Nenio and Ember bought it. On the penultimate try I attempted to stack some Siroccos on him, which did kill him but left my entire frontline on Death's Door. Then tried the recommended strategy of filling all of Camellia's level 7 slots with Creeping Doom and was able to get by virtually unscathed. 

Ah, I should have clarified.

There's a puzzle involving the wall switches in the Fane which unlocks a hidden achievement if you solve it.

Associated encounter isn't fun.

[ShadySands]

I wish gold dragon wasn't a last minute path because having all spells be holy and upping the dice is super awesome

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I wish gold dragon wasn't a last minute path because having all spells be holy and upping the dice is super awesome

I thought Angel could transmute damage to holy. They said something like that in an update video iirc.

Regardless, it seems like all the late game paths are last minute. I guess it makes sense because you walk away from all your special advisors you've been building up to, but it's pretty unsatisfying.