Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Part 2

[bitchmartyr]

48 minutes ago, Achilles said:

There is a lot explicit, horrific violence in this game. What is the criteria for determining which is ok and which is going too far?

Idk. There isn't one I guess. This particular moment stood out to me bc it's the main character who's responsible, there's a lot of other things I wasn't happy with. Writers don't seem to take r*pe seriously in general, two examples of it I can give are trickster punishment for Latverk and those minotaurs with the doppelganger in Camellia's quest.

Most of the "heavy" stuff in WoTR feels unwarranted to me, I don't even know how to explain it. Just mindless violence used for shock value. It would be fine if the tone was consistent, but WoTR can be so comedic at times, the mood swings are too much. WoTR is simultaneously juvenile, naive and mean-spirited. There's no deeper meaning behind all the gore, it's just there.

I've seen ppl say the edgy writing is intentional but like is it? Did I really have to read how that Azata dude wants to f*ck Arueshalae's eyeholes? Was it supposed to be funny? Again, she gets her fairytail ending after that, where is the consistency? Where is the cohesiveness? 

I've always laughed at ppl saying PoE was too dark now I know how it feels

[Achilles]

22 minutes ago, bitchmartyr said:

It would be fine if the tone was consistent, but WoTR can be so comedic at times, the mood swings are too much.

I'm not a professional writer, but I know I have seen professional writers say that it is necessary to add "comic relief" in places to keep the story from becoming too much of an emotional slog.

While I don't begrudge them for doing so, I do agree with you that "what you do" and "how well you do it" are different things. I chalk this up to having multiple writers working on a writing team (maybe with poor direction and/or oversight due to covid?) and cultural differences (some people find mimics hilarious, I guess?)

I haven't played trickster or demon and usually part ways with Camellia pretty early on in the game, so I haven't personally encountered any of these..."incidences". FWIW, the angel mythic path seems to be fairly free of explicit sexual violence.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Achilles

[Longes]

27 minutes ago, bitchmartyr said:

Did I really have to read how that Azata dude wants to f*ck Arueshalae's eyeholes? Was it supposed to be funny?

No? It was supposed to be grim and horrific. It is there to show how monstrous Arueshalae was. That a kind and noble knight was reduced by her manipulations to... this. It is there to show what she attempts to rise above.

It's a man whose memory haunts Arueshalae's nightmares. What made you think that it is funny and being played as a joke?

Edited October 14, 2021 by Longes

[Achilles]

2 hours ago, Longes said:

No? It was supposed to be grim and horrific. It is there to show how monstrous Arueshalae was. That a kind and noble knight was reduced by her manipulations to... this. It is there to show what she attempts to rise above.

It's a man whose memory haunts Arueshalae's nightmares. What made you think that it is funny and being played as a joke?

I don't remember the specific location where it occurs, but there was a line that insinuated that Arue had been on the business end of some eyeball manipulation ala what the team witnesses in Grey Garrison. FWIW, I thought it was pretty clever for them to show that in Act 1, so that the player would have a frame of reference later in the game when that gets revealed.

It's really tough to defend the writing in this game, but every once in a while, it's obvious that they have at least one talented employee on the team

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Longes said:

Creating strawman arguments that the fanbase isn't actually making seems completely unnecessary.

*chuckle*

strawman doesn't mean what you think it does. whose argument did we diminish or undermine by ascribing to them a position they had not taken? you going for irony by perhaps purpose using wrong?

however, am indeed generalizing, which is all kinda logic fallacy failing and would be noteworthy if we were making a logic argument. the owlcat fanbase is literal not same as dragon age 2 or any other crpg fanbase from the past decades and logic dislikes us making equivalent the qualities o' two distinct individuals or groups w/o at least some support for why A=B. no argument from us on that point. but again am not sure if you are serious 'cause you were the guy who for some inexplicable reason opined that, "5e has been trying to get rid of Oriental Adventures," as somehow meaningful insofar as a pathfinder ap portraying the character o' rasputin in a less than favorable light, 'cause d&d what? not to mention tomb of annihilation, a 5e adventure is set in chult and and is most assured embracing exact the kinda stereotype stuff you suggest were being avoided. so, not only objective wrong, but how is such even remote related?

nevertheless, is bordering on obtuse from a reasonableness pov to suggest owlcat fans is somehow unique. we did not craft the syllogism. we made a generalization which implies axiomatic that which is indeed arguable. even so, am gonna lose little sleep over worrying whether the special and unique folks who play owlcat games might be having their feeling hurt over the suggestion that too many want more o' what @bitchmartyr found disquieting.

you think the generalization is unfair? fine. we didn't offer any specific proof in support o' our generalization, so your opinion is no less valid than is ours and the generalization we made, which weren't an argument per se, don't withstand logic scrutiny. happy?

this isn't gonna be a recurring thing is it? have seen the pattern more than a few times since 2000. 

complete unrelated:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/archaeologists-uncover-extensive-pile-animal-and-human-bones-saudi-arabia-cave-180978375/

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

One of the hilarious things about WotR is that seems to have both given the edgelords some of the most evil options they want in a game while simultaneously having some of the dumbest evil lines of all time.

3 hours ago, Achilles said:

I'm not a professional writer, but I know I have seen professional writers say that it is necessary to add "comic relief" in places to keep the story from becoming too much of an emotional slog.

That's true, I've heard it compared to textures that end up enhancing the main thing they're trying to emphasize.

The problem is, and I say this as someone beat Kingmaker but haven't gotten past the water elemental in WotR, that the timing is just incredibly wacky. Maybe Owlcat has improved, but seeing "I don't like you, die!" makes me doubt that.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Achilles said:

I'm not a professional writer, but I know I have seen professional writers say that it is necessary to add "comic relief" in places to keep the story from becoming too much of an emotional slog.

 

“i started out of course with Hemingway when i learned how to write. until i realized Hemingway doesn't have a sense of humor. he never has anything funny in his stories.” -- elmore leonard

nobody is expecting owlcat to measure themselves 'gainst hemingway, or joyce or even leonard, particular given the limits o' crpg storytelling. heck, name the shakespeare tragedy which don't have some humor. 

*shrug*

if our only criticisms o' owlcat writing were that they tried too often or too hard to be shocking or funny and failed, then we would call that a win. nevertheless, am gonna once again point out that subtlety and crpgs are a bit antagonistic, and the wotr pnp ap in particular is not making such any easier. have elmore leonard write wotr and am suspecting there woulda been a few characters and encounters which had us groaning and/or rolling our eyes at the excess. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Achilles]

16 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

if our only criticisms o' owlcat writing were that they tried too often or too hard to be shocking or funny and failed, then we would call that a win. nevertheless, am gonna once again point out that subtlety and crpgs are a bit antagonistic, and the wotr pnp ap in particular is not making such any easier. have elmore leonard write wotr and am suspecting there woulda been a few characters and encounters which had us groaning and/or rolling our eyes at the excess. 

I guess my beef is with the excessive exposition. Suture and Echo of Deskari stick out as being particularly obnoxious examples. "I will defeat you. Unless you hit me *right here*. But that will never happen. Let's fight!"

P.S. I've never ready Elmore Leonard, but I love movies based on his novels. Also, my dad was a big fan

Edited October 14, 2021 by Achilles

[xzar_monty]

16 hours ago, Achilles said:

I'm not a professional writer, but I know I have seen professional writers say that it is necessary to add "comic relief" in places to keep the story from becoming too much of an emotional slog.

Not true, though. This of course depends on how you define "comic relief". But humour is not necessary. There are superb writers without essentially any humour in their works.

Changes of tone tend to be very good, this is true. But adding humour is not the only way to change tone.

Naturally, you can always ask whether a superb work without humour would have been even better with some humour. But there's no way to ever know, so it's not really a worhwhile question.

[xzar_monty]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

nevertheless, am gonna once again point out that subtlety and crpgs are a bit antagonistic, and the wotr pnp ap in particular is not making such any easier.

The first claim is true, no question. But surely there are huge differences in degree. Just compare PoE, Deadfire or, especially, Disco Elysium with P:K or WotR. The differences are enormous, in language, tone and everything.

[Achilles]

10th level spells for merged mythic spellbooks are here and the results are...well, folks, they're OP AF

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

13 minutes ago, Achilles said:

10th level spells for merged mythic spellbooks are here and the results are...well, folks, they're OP AF

Can you metamagic spells into 10th level slots?

[Achilles]

14 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Can you metamagic spells into 10th level slots?

It's funny you ask. It *looks* like you can, but my PC doesn't have any metamagic feats.

I currently have an open domain spell slot with no spells to live in it

Burning question is now, "when do I get these?". Notes make it sound like CL 28. Discord chat makes it sound like ML 10. If it's the former, there's a certain encounter that I'm not dreading nearly as much. If it's the latter, then these spells are useless.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Achilles

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

22 minutes ago, Achilles said:

If it's the latter, then these spells are useless.

Because you hit Mythic 10 at the last hour of the game?

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

10th level spells for merged mythic spellbooks are here and the results are...well, folks, they're OP AF

Great, just when I was considering making a martial character for once

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

47 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Great, just when I was considering making a martial character for once

Battle Oracle can be a better martial than martials.

[Achilles]

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Because you hit Mythic 10 at the last hour of the game?

 

Last 5 minutes. Depending on choices made you either have one or two more encounters.

[ShadySands]

Ended up rolling a wildlands shaman because I haven't played shaman because I don't really like prepared casters. 

I just discovered that if you get Camelia killed in the starter caves the game is over. Looks like I have to deal with her until I reach the Defender's Heart.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

10 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Last 5 minutes. Depending on choices made you either have one or two more encounters.

Hmmmm, I guess I'm cheating with Toybox then.

[Sarex]

48 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Hmmmm, I guess I'm cheating with Toybox then.

I know I did in kingmaker for the last level.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I know I did in kingmaker for the last level.

If you double XP gain in Kingmaker you'll hit the last level right around the house at the edge of time.

[Sarex]

15 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

If you double XP gain in Kingmaker you'll hit the last level right around the house at the edge of time.

That is where I did it, when I finished the house. I wanted that lvl 20 paladin and to actually have some fights with him.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 minute ago, Sarex said:

That is where I did it, when I finished the house. I wanted that lvl 20 paladin and to actually have some fights with him.

Yeah, more and more I appreciate games with enough xp that you can actually play your max level for longer than an hour at the end.

[Sarex]

10 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Yeah, more and more I appreciate games with enough xp that you can actually play your max level for longer than an hour at the end.

It's a balance. Taking PoE as an example you hit the level cap way too soon.

[Achilles]

24 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Yeah, more and more I appreciate games with enough xp that you can actually play your max level for longer than an hour at the end.

You hit max vanilla level well before the end of the game. You don’t get your last mythic level until the very end. 

Re: KM - there was a mod that allowed you to add modifiers to XP level gain that worked quite well. I think Owlcat took its popularity into consideration when designing Wrath