The all things Political Topic - When the sun Rises, the shadows must retreat Fleeing in fear from the Fires of dawn

[Guard Dog]

Tax is theft! 
 

Employers ripping off employees is also theft.

The difference is the former is legal and the latter isn’t. You can DO something about the latter.

well, to tell you the gods honest truth you can do something about the former too. Don’t have an income, don’t own anything, don’t buy anything, and just live like a bum. No taxes!  Another way to go is to not pay, enter skeevy business deals, get elected President and declare executive privilege for all dealings from the beginning of time to date. Of course the jury still out on how well that last one works LOL.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

R00FLES! I thought the pie chart was about about employees stealing from the employer.

[Gromnir]

14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Tax is theft! 
 

 

Definition of theft
1a: the act of stealing
specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

so, no, is not theft. if the taking is legal and/or not felonious, then is it is inappropriate to describe as theft. 

forefathers were against taxation without representation but they most assured weren't against taxation.

did gd join the military and use gi bill monies to pay for education? yes he did. so based on gd's own definition he took and used stolen goods. hypocrite.

stop. just stop.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

Definition of theft
1a: the act of stealing
specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

so, no, is not theft. if the taking is legal and/or not felonious, then is it is inappropriate to describe as theft. 

forefathers were against taxation without representation but they most assured weren't against taxation.

did gd join the military and use gi bill monies to pay for education? yes he did. so based on gd's own definition he took and used stolen goods. hypocrite.

stop. just stop.

HA! Good Fun!

I never said I wasn’t a hypocrite. I drawing unemployment so I’m literally living off my fellow Tennesseans right now. It’s something of a miracle I can even look at myself in the mirror. But somehow I find a way to do it. Of course that doesn’t mean taxes are not theft. 
 

I guess if tax is not theft because it’s legal than slavery was just a jobs program. But you of all people know that political philosophy and practical applications are, at best, distantly related.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Guard Dog
Speech to text screwed up

[Gromnir]

20 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 

I guess if tax is not theft because it’s legal than slavery was just a jobs program. But you of all people know that political philosophy and practical applications are, at best, distantly related.

no, slavery was slavery and it was called slavery while it was being embraced by far too many. slavery were immoral and inhuman(e), and over those points there were argument, but nobody quibbled over what it was. you is reversing and doing for slavery what you do for taxation-- you are the one attempting to forcible use an inapplicable definition for that which is already clear defined. slavery is not a jobs program precise 'cause it involves involuntary servitude and the jobs programs preclude the ability o' the owner o' the employed to sell the employee. involuntary servitude and ability to sell the employed would make a jobs program not a jobs program but slavery. duh. 

taxation is not theft. perhaps you think is immoral, which is severe undercut by your admitted everyday hypocrisy. clear you don't think is equivalent to the wrong o' slavery which you tried to make analogous, otherwise such would make you complicit to equivalent immorality and inhumanity, which is improbable.

by definition, theft is an illegal and/or felonious taking. 

stop. serious, just stop.

HA! Good Fun!

ps you wanna argue taxation is immoral and inhumane? fine. given your admitted hypocrisy am gonna laugh at you and your dramatic exclamation points. silliness. even so, is your opinion taxation is wrong. converse, claim taxation is theft is a question o' fact, and you are wrong, factually.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

8 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

no, slavery was slavery and it was called slavery while it was being embraced by far too many. slavery were immoral and inhuman(e), and over those points there were argument, but nobody quibbled over what it was. you is reversing and doing for slavery what you do for taxation-- you are the one attempting to forcible use an inapplicable definition for that which is already clear defined. slavery is not a jobs program precise 'cause is it involves involuntary servitude and the jobs programs preclude the ability o' the owner o' the employed to sell the employee. involuntary servitude and ability to sell the employed would make a jobs program not a jobs program but slavery. duh. 

taxation is not theft. perhaps you think is immoral, which is severe undercut by your admitted everyday hypocrisy. clear you don't think is equivalent to the wrong o' slavery which you tried to make analogous, otherwise such would make you complicit to equivalent immorality and inhumanity, which is improbable.

by definition, theft is an illegal and/or felonious taking. 

stop. serious, just stop.

HA! Good Fun!

LOL OK let’s clear the air to begin with this is not a serious discussion. But from a purely philosophical point of view both were/are legal and contrived to deprive a person of at least some portion of the fruits of their labor in the interest of some “public” good. And yes that argument was made about slave labor. More than once. Alexander Stevens and John Calhoun both wrote essays to hide it behind that particular fig leaf. 
 

of course this is not an intellectually valid one to one comparison. Not the same thing. But from a purely philosophical point of view there IS a comparison 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

again, no.

you are mixing rationalizations for slavery with definition of slavery. is not same. if the jobs program in question includes involuntary servitude and the ability to forcible sell the worker as personal property, then is no longer a jobs program.

stop. please.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

Besides, the world is what it is. It works how it works. It cannot be changed. It cannot even be seriously adjusted. If we could move to some new land in the middle of the ocean somewhere and build a new society from the ground up there be an opportunity to do things a little differently. Maybe it would succeed and maybe it wouldn’t. You can’t have a functioning society without tax dollars. And you won’t get tax dollars without taking them.

of course HOW we get taxed is fair game

[Gromnir]

Just now, Guard Dog said:

 You can’t have a functioning society without tax dollars. And you won’t get tax dollars without taking them.

 

your recognition makes your continued embrace o' absurdism even more silly. you not only see as necessary but you concede you are a banal everyday participant in a scheme which evokes a need for exclamation points and multipost defenses where you make comparisons to slavery. serious. 

"taxation is theft!"  some bit o' doggerel you read or heard someplace and mistook as pith.

you not like taxation. you think is bad, but no so bad as to stop gorging yourself on the fruits o' the poisoned tree. fine. not particular convincing, but knock yourself out. 

factually is wrong.

stop.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

17 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

your recognition makes your continued embrace o' absurdism even more silly. you not only see as necessary but you concede you are a banal everyday participant in a scheme which evokes a need for exclamation points and multipost defenses where you make comparisons to slavery. serious. 

"taxation is theft!"  some bit o' doggerel you read or heard someplace and mistook as pith.

you not like taxation. you think is bad, but no so bad as to stop gorging yourself on the fruits o' the poisoned tree. fine. not particular convincing, but knock yourself out. 

factually is wrong.

stop.

HA! Good Fun!

 

I thought I made it clear my comparisons to slavery were not “serious“. Besides I’ve told you this a number of times my goal in engaging in philosophical discussions is not really to change anyone’s mind. Well that’s not true sometimes I have done that. But what I would really like to do is just to get people to think about things from a different perspective. 
 

like I said I live in the country and society that I live in and I follow its rules. Does it mean I don’t wish they might’ve been different. Does it mean I don’t think maybe it could’ve been done better. But that genies been out of the bottle so long she’s gone.

Edit: still not voting for Democrats or Republicans though. I used to vote for the lesser evil. Then one day I decided I was going to stop voting for evil. I’d rather vote for lost causes or even stupidity.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Guard Dog

[ComradeYellow]

Every time I take a break from this thread, it just goes back to @Gromnir vs @Guard Dog like a 1980's air hockey match

Allow me to raise the discomfort level by talking about a growing China

China's Army Day: 94th anniversary of PLA founding - CGTN 

China is now obsessed with hitting centennial goals left and right, they've achieved a "moderately prosperous society in all respects" in 2021, exactly 100 years after the founding of the CPC, and virtually eliminated extreme poverty.  When I was a boy, my step dad would always use the "starving people in China" card every time I complained about what was for dinner.  This is no longer a fact, the average Chinese citizen makes a decent living now.

Their next centennial goal is to achieve a "moderately modernized military" by 2027, exactly 100 years after the creation of the PLA.

Their ultimate goal is to achieve absolute modernization and be a leading power in all respects buy 2049, and that includes being the foremost innovator in technology and other things.  "Made in China" will be a thing of world class quality rather than the be the gold standard of cheap goods.

[Gfted1]

 

[Zoraptor]

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

Never underestimate the importance of motivation. The Taliban believe in their cause. Government troops believe in the paycheck that may or may not pay their next rent... if it doesn't bounce because the government is broke.

Probably more likely to not get paid because their commander has pocketed their wages. That was the situation in Iraq when their army collapsed at Mosul for example, most of the nominal troops had literally deserted and a whole division existed only on paper as a way for its commander to embezzle funds.

There are also a couple of major differences between the ~2000 situation and 2021 in Afghanistan which are having a big impact in how things are playing out.

Prior to the western intervention while there may have been a lot of anti Taliban lip service in the west their role as clients of pro western interests (Pakistan, Saudi) and perhaps even more importantly an anti Russian/ Iranian bulwark meant there was no practical support for anti Taliban forces from the west, but plenty from Russia/ Iran and the neighbouring 'stans. Hence the Northern Alliance's main strength and holdings were in the north, along the border with Tajikistan, and there was an open insurgency against the Talibs in the west and around Herat supported by Iran. The Taliban now are getting support from their traditional Pakistani backers for traditional Pakistani reasons (and, let's be frank, as geopolitical utu for the US intervention taking out their pet project) and their traditional enemies in Russia and Iran because the Afghan government is a western puppet. Hence you have areas that were held continuously by the NA (or up to just before Sept 2001) around Mazar-e-Sharif, Kunduz, Faisabad already taken and only the cities barely holding out, for the moment.

There's also been somewhat of a shift away from ethnicity- the Northern Alliance was largely Tajik (vs mostly Pashtu Taliban) and held the NE of the country pretty solidly on that basis, but as above almost all the territory it held is now held by the Taliban, excepting the cities. At the moment the division seems to be almost completely along rural/ urban (conservative/ less conservative) lines instead, with cities being pretty strongly pro government and rural areas almost completely pro Talib.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

Every time I take a break from this thread, it just goes back to @Gromnir vs @Guard Dog like a 1980's air hockey match

Allow me to raise the discomfort level by talking about a growing China

China's Army Day: 94th anniversary of PLA founding - CGTN 

China is now obsessed with hitting centennial goals left and right, they've achieved a "moderately prosperous society in all respects" in 2021, exactly 100 years after the founding of the CPC, and virtually eliminated extreme poverty.  When I was a boy, my step dad would always use the "starving people in China" card every time I complained about what was for dinner.  This is no longer a fact, the average Chinese citizen makes a decent living now.

Their next centennial goal is to achieve a "moderately modernized military" by 2027, exactly 100 years after the creation of the PLA.

Their ultimate goal is to achieve absolute modernization and be a leading power in all respects buy 2049, and that includes being the foremost innovator in technology and other things.  "Made in China" will be a thing of world class quality rather than the be the gold standard of cheap goods.

But how can you trust anything that comes from the CCP, you literally have no way of corroborating anything as factual that they say because they simply control access to information that the outside world knows about

For example let me give you an example, has the CCP admitted Corona originated from China? Just that one acknowledgement .....surly that would be an easy thing to admit and take responsibility for, ....not the spread in other countries but you can admit the your own complicity 

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Gromnir said:

no, slavery was slavery and it was called slavery while it was being embraced by far too many. slavery were immoral and inhuman(e), and over those points there were argument, but nobody quibbled over what it was. you is reversing and doing for slavery what you do for taxation-- you are the one attempting to forcible use an inapplicable definition for that which is already clear defined. slavery is not a jobs program precise 'cause it involves involuntary servitude and the jobs programs preclude the ability o' the owner o' the employed to sell the employee. involuntary servitude and ability to sell the employed would make a jobs program not a jobs program but slavery. duh. 

taxation is not theft. perhaps you think is immoral, which is severe undercut by your admitted everyday hypocrisy. clear you don't think is equivalent to the wrong o' slavery which you tried to make analogous, otherwise such would make you complicit to equivalent immorality and inhumanity, which is improbable.

by definition, theft is an illegal and/or felonious taking. 

stop. serious, just stop.

HA! Good Fun!

ps you wanna argue taxation is immoral and inhumane? fine. given your admitted hypocrisy am gonna laugh at you and your dramatic exclamation points. silliness. even so, is your opinion taxation is wrong. converse, claim taxation is theft is a question o' fact, and you are wrong, factually.

Raising taxes is definitely not theft, its the primary way that all governments fund their numerous expenses and the way all our governments function. Unless you have profitable state owned institutions , like the Norwegian state owned oil company, I am not sure how anyone expects any government to be functional ?

[Guard Dog]

No reason non-US citizens can’t vote
 

yeah I’m gonna be a hard pass on this one. I would be a bit more inclined if we were talking about just legal residence. But that term is already very blurry and it’s going to get even blurrier.

[Sarex]

 

[Zoraptor]

The protests tell you who really has the support. Anti lockdown protests may not have the best turn out, but pro lockdown protests never have anyone turn up to them.

[Guard Dog]

New infrastructure bill float national mileage tax
 

that’s it. I’m getting a horse.

In all seriousness I noticed they did not carveout any exception for commercial trucking. So kiddies guess who pays that tax? Please pull your pants down, bend over and prepare to receive the f——-g you so richly deserve every time you buy anything.

[Gromnir]

59 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

New infrastructure bill float national mileage tax
 

that’s it. I’m getting a horse.

In all seriousness I noticed they did not carveout any exception for commercial trucking. So kiddies guess who pays that tax? Please pull your pants down, bend over and prepare to receive the f——-g you so richly deserve every time you buy anything.

this is a concession to get republican support, and gd complaints is curious as he is the one who is in favour o' similar regressive flat tax silliness. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

this is a concession to get republican support, and gd complaints is curious as he is the one who is in favour o' similar regressive flat tax silliness. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As a replacement for other taxes. This is in addition to. And frankly I could care less who’s idea it is. It sucks.

[ShadySands]

Step 1.  Take the original infrastructure bill and rename it to Trump Builds America or something 

Step 2. ?

Step 3. Profit

[Gromnir]

7 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

As a replacement for other taxes. This is in addition to.

this tax is a replacement for the other alternatives. regardless, this distinction makes no sense whatsoever. regressive is better, but only if is as a replacement for a previous existing tax? what? how on earth do you convince your self o' this silliness?

and one o' your most frequent complaints 'bout democrats is taxation related. democrats is out to tax you and take your freedoms... including guns. never forget the guns.

whatever. you believe what you believe, and in a few posts you will add an emote and then explain you were joking or just posing a philosophical conundrum to spark debate. tough to keep track.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

14 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Step 1.  Take the original infrastructure bill and rename it to Trump Builds America or something 

Step 2. ?

Step 3. Profit

Just slap America Great somewhere in there and they'll have to vote for it.

[Gorth]

DeSantis... "The Florida Butcher"?

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58077209

"US health officials say 11,515 Florida residents are currently in hospital. Many are younger and healthier than patients seen earlier in the pandemic.

On Saturday, Florida set a record for most new infections in a single day.

Republican Governor Ron DeSantis opposes efforts to make vaccines or masks mandatory.

Across the US, one in three new cases last week were recorded in Florida or Texas."

 

Sort of a giveaway what parts of the US *not* to be in, at least at the moment I suppose.