Stat Change Suggestion for Poe1/2 or future installments

[alexis13]

One thing we had on all the stats was all the defenses, on two stats each, including deflection, that used to be perception + resolve.

Ever think of adding deflection in again? But just as constitution? It may make that "indestructible" title at 20 points feel a little more real.

And as con's considered a dump stat, might make it more respected? Like con will REALLY FEEL LIKE CON.

I've always thought this was a good idea for all D&D games or ect, but it never ever gets done even though IMO it really makes sense.

I take con either way, just for my RP, but I'm really tanking in these games with resolve + might.

So yeah, just a little suggestion, as deflection can be RP'd as just flat tanking dmg right?

[Boeroer]

I also think CON would need a little boost because it's not that important if you know what you are doing.

But instead of using it for deflection I would do something else with it.

Resolve raises deflection (I see no good explanation for this but it's the way it is - so one could also argue that CON might raise it some way, but I digress...) and duration of hostile effects on you - and still it's a dump stat in many builds.

Mostly it gets dumped in offensive builds because it has no offensive purpose. Same as CON. The other attributes do contribute to offense and defense - and I guess that's why we see CON and RES dumped so much - offensive character seem to be more fun I guess.

Atm you can build around low CON and RES relatively easily. With good healing and enough AR it's not too bad if you have lowish health and deflection. But it's difficult to make up for dumped INT or DEX most of times for example. 

Since I can't see a way for CON influencing offense in the Pillars system I would double down on the defensive capabilities. I mean in another system I could see CON influencing an endurance pool that lets you execute more special attacks than somebody with less endurance. Something like that. But in PoE/Deadfire we don't have that sort of endurance pool that fuels attacks but specialized ones for each class which wouldn't make sense to get influenced by CON.

Instead of raising deflection to simulate "tanking" DMG my idea would have been to give CON not only +/-x% to health but also give it damage reduction. So a character with 10 CON suffers the incoming damage unchanged (besides armor and other DR effects of course), but somebody with 20 CON not only had more health but also would have a damage reduction of - I don't know - 20%? That's 2% per point. I just made up that number. A char with 3 CON would receive more damage than is actually incoming: +14% (a bit like Hekwalker or Assassin passives). Since damage reduction is quite impactful due to double inversion mechanics I wouldn't go higher than that maybe. But that would need playtesting.   

Another idea was to influence "healing received". At the moment a healing ability that heals 100 health will heal up a squishy completely from near death to unharmed - but only give like half of health back to a really beefy character, from near death to bloodied. Isn't that a bit unfair? What's all the max health of Mr. Meat for if your pool fills up as slowly as Mr. Glass's does? So a char with 10 CON would receive +/-0% of the applied healing, a char with 3 CON would get a -35% malus (5% per point of CON) and a char with 20 CON would receive +50% healing. 

Those were my two ideas I had some time ago. I also suggested the RES change (influences hostile durations). Don't know if Josh read that or cane to that conclusion by himself. But unlike the RES change CON was only boosted from 3% per point to 5%. So maybe those ideas have some flaws I don't see now .

Anyway - I would implement either DR or healing factor, not both. I'd prefer the healing factor I guess. It's mathematically less complicated and makes most sense imo.

But both could work. That way somebody who dumps CON will be really soft and can't counter with high armor values and/or healing that easily. It would make CON a lot more attractive I think. 

[Elric Galad]

Funny thing is that CON is a top tier stats on... Summons. And in general on foes. That said adding healing received would probably work. I think stacking healing done from MIG and received from CON could be a bit too much. MIG could be removed healing done without being too bad. Or base healing values should be reduced granted that CON is usually above 10.

I think INT is the most useful stat in general. But some build can partially ignore it. Lowish INT makes many builds mehish for some of the companions.

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Funny thing is that CON is a top tier stats on... Summons. And in general on foes. That said adding healing received would probably work. I think stacking healing done from MIG and received from CON could be a bit too much. MIG could be removed healing done without being too bad. Or base healing values should be reduced granted that CON is usually above 10.

we already have some redundancy of durations via intellect (outgoing durations) and resolve (incoming hostile durations), so I do not think it's a bad thing if CON duplicates might on the healing end.

 

con is already weird in that extra health is even less useful because healing from a given caster grants the same absolute amount on a 300 health char as a 200 health char, so essentially once you eat up the extra 100 health "reserve" the 300 character has over the 200 character, the two characters essentially don't have different health, unless you manage to overheal the 200-health character a lot. The overhealing is more relevant earlier on when health amounts are lower and it's more likely you can overheal, but ironically CON is even less effective at that point because it's a percentage boost off a very tiny base -- class differences in health will probably matter more.

 

i forget which rtwp RPG it was where most healing effects healed a % of health (maybe it was tyranny?). i thought it solved the con problem quite nicely. you could dump con on your squishy wizard, but then your potions would hardly help you out, whereas healing a paltry 20% on a beefy tank could still be a huge save.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

con is already weird in that extra health is even less useful because healing from a given caster grants the same absolute amount on a 300 health char as a 200 health char, so essentially once you eat up the extra 100 health "reserve" the 300 character has over the 200 character, the two characters essentially don't have different health, unless you manage to overheal the 200-health character a lot.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[Elric Galad]

19 hours ago, thelee said:

we already have some redundancy of durations via intellect (outgoing durations) and resolve (incoming hostile durations), so I do not think it's a bad thing if CON duplicates might on the healing end.

Oh I do think it would have been a good thing.

But the current base healing values are based on absence of such a bonus. So adding this effect without tweaking Base healing values could lead to some broken stuff.

To take an extreme but relevant example, what would happen if Dorudugan self healing did benefit from its 35ish CON ?

[Boeroer]

Afaik the healing one gets from converted damage (Rekvu's Scorched Cloak, Flame Nagas, Dorudugan etc.) neither benefits from MIG, healing received nor healing done bonuses. It's just the described % of damage that gets through and nothing further influences it. 

I think because the approach is balanced in itself there's no need to touch the base healing values. If you'd lower them that would be an even bigger motivation to raise CON - because for low-CON chars the healing would be even more ineffective.

What could be tweaked is the actual percentage value per point of CON. Maybe 5% is too much, maybe it's about right... no idea. 'Twas just a number that I used because it sounded okay.  But I figured since CON also raises/lowers the health pool by 5% it would only be fair that the healing scales by 5% steps as well (see @thelee's latest point).

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

17 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Afaik the healing one gets from converted damage (Rekvu's Scorched Cloak, Flame Nagas, Dorudugan etc.) neither benefits from MIG, healing received nor healing done bonuses. It's just the described % of damage that gets through and nothing further influences it. 

I think because the approach is balanced in itself there's no need to touch the base healing values. If you'd lower them that would be an even bigger motivation to raise CON - because for low-CON chars the healing would be even more ineffective.

What could be tweaked is the actual percentage value per point of CON. Maybe 5% is too much, maybe it's about right... no idea. 'Twas just a number that I used because it sounded okay.  But I figured since CON also raises/lowers the health pool by 5% it would only be fair that the healing scales by 5% steps as well (see @thelee's latest point).

 

I think 3% would be fine. I don't even know of the effect of stats are available for modding (and I can't check right now).

Yeah, Doru might indeed be the one exception when healing matters. So if it is a non issue, it could be good. For other foes, they rarely rely on healing anyway. For Characters, a build with max CON and MIG relying on self healing could become a thing.

There would be a bit of redundancy between CON afflictions and regular debuff.

Side note : Higher CON makes it easier for threshold based buff such as death godlike and Street fighter.

[thelee]

48 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I think 3% would be fine

not just for healing, but health as well. we only have 5% for health right now because they buffed it because a simple +/-3% was too weak. 3% health plus 3% healing effect is nicely symmetric with other stats and would probably work well in total (tho would need testing)

[Boeroer]

Agree

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, thelee said:

not just for healing, but health as well. we only have 5% for health right now because they buffed it because a simple +/-3% was too weak. 3% health plus 3% healing effect is nicely symmetric with other stats and would probably work well in total (tho would need testing)

The symmetry is cute but it would be quite a big nerf to foes (who use much less healing). It would also make CON debuffs less interesting for player as a consequence.

 

Also I really feel that CON afflictions would be weird. Like -15% healing received from -5 CON plus -25%/-50%/-100% from afflictions ? It doesn't sound very good.

I wonder if something like -2% damages received per point above 10 and +3% health won't be better (values can be debated). It favors putting a lots of point in CON (like for RES), has a natural cap at 35 CON, still helps healing a lot. Maybe -2% damages received is too high though.

 

Anyway, I asked on modding subforum if anything can be tweaked. Can't check myself for now. If it's hard coded, no need to debate (apart for an hypothetical future game).

[Elric Galad]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/124011-changing-effects-of-a-stat/

Apparently can't be changed

[Boeroer]

Can't be changed, hm... But would it be possible to create a passive that "piggybacks" onto every character and adds a "healing received" modifier based on CON?

Or a "damage reduction" modifier based on CON?

You know, just the general idea of attaching something "dynamic" like that on everybody. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Can't be changed, hm... But would it be possible to create a passive that "piggybacks" onto every character and adds a "healing received" modifier based on CON?

Or a "damage reduction" modifier based on CON?

You know, just the general idea of attaching something "dynamic" like that on everybody. 

Yes, I was thinking about similar workaround. The easiest (so less buggy, and the one I could find time for) would be to add a new CON based effect to Tough Ability (or create a new Ability if someone is willing to make a new icon). Every class get it. This would enable high CON builds without nasty impact on Megabosses.

Below 10 CON malus is annoying enough to prevent CON from being a dump stat, so being an optional talent wouldn't hurt.

If you agree with this technical discussion, we could discuss further about how to balance it.

 

EDIT : what would think about Tough providing 2% damages reduction for every point of CON above 10 (up to 50% at 35 CON) in addition to its current effect (so still useful for low CON and does not "cost" an additional ability point to get the high CON benefit) ?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

I have a doubt about how damages reduction stack though.

Does 50% damages reduction and 10% damages reduction stack to 60% ? Something else ?

[Svartypops]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:55 AM, Boeroer said:

Resolve raises deflection (I see no good explanation for this but it's the way it is - so one could also argue that CON might raise it some way, but I digress...)

 

To take us way off-topic, I suspect this happened thus;

5 stats, each of which change 3 other stats - and it's the 3 other stats that ACTUALLY do things. One of the 3 stats is changed by two of the original stats.

See what happened? I didn't even say Might or Resolve, for example. The NAMES of the stats are the LAST thing you add! I think that's why some of them don't seem to fit so well - additionally, it must be very difficult to find names for thing that interact so peculiarly.

[Boeroer]

Yes, from a systemic point of view all is clear.

I meant I see no ingame "justification" for RES influencing Deflection and you have to be a bit creative to find an ingame explanation that somehow explains why a character with high resolve can block blows better. But it's accepted and therefore my point was that letting CON influence Deflection could also be explained somehow. 

 

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I have a doubt about how damages reduction stack though.

Does 50% damages reduction and 10% damages reduction stack to 60% ? Something else ?

double inversion fiasco.

 

you can see this take place with things like that girdle that gives you -% weapon damage at lower health plus fighter's guardian stance.

Edited July 14, 2021 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

49 minutes ago, thelee said:

double inversion fiasco.

 

you can see this take place with things like that girdle that gives you -% weapon damage at lower health plus fighter's guardian stance.

Which means what exactly ?

[Boeroer]

"It's complicated" 

 

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

"It's complicated" 

 

-50% -> +100%

-10% -> ~+11%

Total : 1/(100%+11%) ???

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Which means what exactly ?

if you're familiar with it, it's akin to a harmonic mean, e.g. how do you combine different "rates" of stuff (e.g. CAFE fuel efficiency standards in the US).

 

in the example of -50% dr and -10% dr, the way the game actually treats it is to consider them "rates" and combine them by inverting them:
-50% dr => 1/(1 - .5) => 2
-10% dr => 1/(1 - .1) => 1.11

if it's just negative modifiers, you just add them together after subtracting, subtract out a 1, and then re-invert them:
2 + 1.11 - 1 => 2.11
1/2.11 => .474, 1 - .474 => -52.6% DR

it gets more complicated if there are also positive modifiers

edit: ninja'd; you basically got it

Edited July 14, 2021 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

Well, I know how double inversion works, but you mentioned "double inversion fiasco" specifically so I wondered if there was something special involved.

To be honest, in that case, it provides a pretty robust design. I was afraid that stacking damages reduction could lead to some invincibility, but it seems that there is no risk.

So 2% damages reduction for each point above 10 added to the Tough talent, do you guys feel it enough (and not too much) ? I guess it could translate into great tanking.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Noqn]

Oh I like the idea of adding healing received modifier to Con!

On 7/14/2021 at 8:56 AM, Boeroer said:

Can't be changed, hm... But would it be possible to create a passive that "piggybacks" onto every character and adds a "healing received" modifier based on CON?

Or a "damage reduction" modifier based on CON?

You know, just the general idea of attaching something "dynamic" like that on everybody. 

StatusEffects annoyingly can't have dynamic values based on Attribute values, only Skill values and a few more stats. Though it would be possible to add a StatusEffect with one child effect for each Con value in the 3-35 range with corresponding healing multipliers and conditionals.

The StatusEffect could be assigned to an Ability that's only visible in the character sheet, and that Ability appended to all CharacterProgressionTableGameData(?)

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Noqn said:

Though it would be possible to add a StatusEffect with one child effect for each Con value in the 3-35 range with corresponding healing multipliers and conditionals.

Creative and very hacky.

I like it.