The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?

[Guard Dog]

8 hours ago, Gromnir said:

and if your nihilism were consistent, it would still be comic but at least it would be believable. unfortunately, you distinguish them, the established parties, as corrupt and irredeemable and then do your broken record bit o' repetition lamenting how voting democrat or republican is a kinda voluntary self mutilation... at which point you observe there is an alternative. government is broken. the democrats and republicans is all bad. you rage 'gainst the stoopid o' the people for not seeing as clear as you do. how may the people ignore biden and burisma (*snort*) or the florida gop trying to legislate free speech on college campuses and not rage at how such is flip sides o' same coin? (huh?) is no winners. only losers. well, almost. 

your cynicism takes you to ridiculous places where you suggest they is all broken and beyond hope o' redemption, and then you vote seth cohen, and not as a joke but 'cause you see such as the intelligent and reasonable alternative. you take any example o' a government fail, even if you need manufacture such fails with the help o' fringe radio conspiracies, and use such to justify the fear they is just looking for an excuse to take your guns... or whatever is the current hobgoblin running naked and screaming in your brain today. taxes is theft and the government goons who come to take his rusty chain saw (and pay him for it) deserve a lethal reply.  is tough to keep track o' gd's fever dreams 'bout the evils o' government... though based on past comments gd fully expects government to protect him from fellow citizens who wanna take his stuff, which is kinda hypocritical given the statement which started this current side journey.  "flamethrowers" indeed.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

The Libertarian party became a joke long before 2020. But, when both the Republicans and the Democrats are unacceptable which has been the case for me ever since 2012 and before 2008, where do you go with your vote? Leaving it blank does nothing. Voting for a 3rd party does next to nothing. But hell would freeze into a solid block before I ever hand my vote to a low villain like Donald Trump or someone as inept as Joe Biden. Biden is inarguably a better man than Trump for whatever that is worth. That does not make him an acceptable alternative. Just a different flavor of bad. My cynicism didn’t come naturally. It was hard won.

And yes I do believe in the absolute sanctity of private property outside public domain. Unapologetically. If what is mine is not exclusively mine then we do NOT live in a country. We live in a bandit kingdom. Not that anyone is banging down the door trying to take anything… right now.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

 My cynicism didn’t come naturally. It was hard won.

 

won? be honest and call it a surrender. you are so certain all democrats and republicans is corrupt that you unreasonable grasp at any story which would support your conclusion. how many times has Gromnir needed correct your hasty conclusions?  whether is dead bodies in arlington or obama imagined support o' national police, gd is quick to assume the worst of they/them. worse, every time there is actual evidence that a group o' politicians did something wrong, you predictably turn it into a chance to rail 'bout how they are all bad. 

example: 

this story were proof that, "Republicans = Democrats =Republicans =Democrats"? your syllogism is, to say the least, lacking. but in your mind is so obvious that the democrats, (and not just some democrats but all democrats) is corrupt that you no longer even bother showing how the other guys is doing the exact same thing... and you sure as heck ain't showing is endemic evhul.

wanna revisit the biden thing again?  really? am happy to watch you try and explain burisma as proof o' biden corruption. we gonna rehash where you serious complained that the biden speech writer from pre 2000s failed to proper attribute quotes as some kinda proof o' biden lack o' character? can't believe you wanna try and defend that silliness one more time, but don't you worry, we will address your newfound embrace o' relativism in moments.

inept, btw, is a extreme different condemnation than corrupt. am quite willing to concede biden is inept. the thing is, almost none o' these guys is up to the task o' running a national level government. 'course part o' the problem is the demands the people make is unreasonable. fix systemic racism? sure, we can do that in two or four six years, yes? oh, and since this is one gd fails habitual, try and come up with a plan to reduce national debt w/o raising taxes or cutting funding for programs which the people would be enraged 'bout if they learned were getting pruned. is a whole lotta problems and all too few is simple... and the simple stuff gets addressed bipartisan and with little fanfare. 

but again, your cynicism has limits. if they are all well and true bad, then less bad shouldn't make a difference. in fact, refusal to accept a lesser o' evils has previous been foundational for gd. if is all just degrees o' deceit, then the only thing libertarians have to argue in their favor as being less subject to corruption is the fact they ain't never had a meaningful national presence, so is predictable fewer stories o' graft. if libertarians is occupying a spot on the corruption spectrum same as the rest, then a vote for libertarians makes little sense as the only value they offered in 2016 or 2020 were as spoilers. given gd has now admitted to having found religion in relativism, vote for the spoiler is curious.

they are all bad except for the libertarians or anybody who agrees with your extreme narrow worldview regarding rusty chain saws, even if such folks stumble outta a tiny car in harlequin garb and face paint. am recalling how certain gd were that 2016 represented a sea change for libertarians in spite o' fact there were overall extreme low voter turnout. so, how did 2020 affect your certainty that 2016 were meaningful for libertarians? as a national percentage o' total vote, 2020 libertarians lost 2/3 o' what they achieved in 2016. oh, and if the criticism o' biden is now ineptitude as 'posed to some kinda endemic party politician corruption, then gary johnson is hardly an improvement. 

you are not doing a particular good job supporting your hard won cynicism. admitted you has stated you indulge in hyperbole from time to time but you didn't even bother with your meme deflection this time, eh? is doubtful you concede this is all just a big joke, yes? meme or no meme, is the same old same old, yes?

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

As James Weeks said, the US government is so corrupt it needs to be stripped down. And James Weeks put his money where his mouth was and did a strip tease. If only more Libertarians had his commitment.

 

[Gromnir]

following libertarian "politics" is where we learned about the support of the "bronies" for the cause. the my little ponies fans were so enamored with vermin supreme's campaign promise o' a free pony for every american, they has endorsed him and the libertarian cause since 2012.

libertarians, as a party and at the national level has been a joke a lot longer than gd suggests.

bronies.

at the local level, libertarians is often serious and sober candidates even if they is fringe and in spite o' fact mj support became inextricably linked with libertarians running for office. if libertarians have a single unifying platform position, is probable legalization of marijuana, which maybe hurt the party as states has increasing passed marijuana legalization legislation. once marijuana is legal in a state, then there isn't much setting the libertarian apart from the crowd.

HA! Good Fun!

ps more proof every post is a star trek post, john de lancie were a narrator for the bronies kickstarter project and he even "sings" a song.

[Zoraptor]

Bronies and strip teases

versus

24 28 trillion debt and millions dead in utterly pointless wars from the responsible side with their sensible establishment backers.

Not an overly difficult choice to make.

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

As James Weeks said, the US government is so corrupt it needs to be stripped down. And James Weeks put his money where his mouth was and did a strip tease. If only more Libertarians had his commitment.

 

They need to get more porn stars as candidates.  Easy wins.

Meanwhile in Haiti -  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/haitian-president-was-fighting-stay-power-when-he-was-assassinated-n1273291

English/Spanish speaking mercenaries apparently.  Marco Rubio already blaming Castro, I am sure.

 

[ShadySands]

17 minutes ago, Malcador said:

English/Spanish speaking mercenaries apparently.  Marco Rubio already blaming Castro, I am sure.

My first thought was Ted Cruz's dad

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

26 minutes ago, Malcador said:

They need to get more porn stars as candidates.

They just need to say **** it and double down on the crazy. No one will care about some failed Republicans trying to rebrand, but people will pay attention to the Tiger King. US elections already are a joke so they may as well go all in.

8 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

My first thought was Ted Cruz's dad

The Zodiac Killer doesn't do coups.

[Gorth]

11 hours ago, Gromnir said:

inept, btw, is a extreme different condemnation than corrupt. am quite willing to concede biden is inept. the thing is, almost none o' these guys is up to the task o' running a national level government. 'course part o' the problem is the demands the people make is unreasonable. fix systemic racism? sure, we can do that in two or four six years, yes? oh, and since this is one gd fails habitual, try and come up with a plan to reduce national debt w/o raising taxes or cutting funding for programs which the people would be enraged 'bout if they learned were getting pruned. is a whole lotta problems and all too few is simple... and the simple stuff gets addressed bipartisan and with little fanfare.

Not really politics, but my inner history student wonders if it wasn't a similar situation that caused Emperor Diocletian to split the empire into two, as it had become just too unwieldy, unmovable and unchangeable for a single, central government to administer

Edit: Empire being the Roman Empire

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Not really politics, but my inner history student wonders if it wasn't a similar situation that caused Emperor Diocletian to split the empire into two, as it had become just too unwieldy, unmovable and unchangeable for a single, central government to administer

Edit: Empire being the Roman Empire

Didnt the USA already go through " splitting the empire " as a solution to legal and political issues and it didnt work?

The  American Civil War was the example of this 

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Didnt the USA already go through " splitting the empire " as a solution to legal and political issues and it didnt work?

The  American Civil War was the example of this 

The Roman Empire went through more than one split. Diocletian was just the first. Then came The Tetrarchy, forceful reunifications in between and eventually the split for good, leading to a western "Latin" Roman Empire and an eastern "Greek" Byzantine Empire. The latter surviving for another thousand years until stabbed in the back by Western Europe (courtesy of Venice) and overrun by Turks, who had started invading Anatolia centuries earlier. Point is, sometimes cramping too many different people and cultures into a single realm doesn't work out in the long run. Not unique to any current or former nation/union/empire etc.

[Gromnir]

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

The Roman Empire went through more than one split. Diocletian was just the first. Then came The Tetrarchy, forceful reunifications in between and eventually the split for good, leading to a western "Latin" Roman Empire and an eastern "Greek" Byzantine Empire. The latter surviving for another thousand years until stabbed in the back by Western Europe (courtesy of Venice) and overrun by Turks, who had started invading Anatolia centuries earlier. Point is, sometimes cramping too many different people and cultures into a single realm doesn't work out in the long run. Not unique to any current or former nation/union/empire etc.

the US is a republic, which am suspecting were the founder's solution to the issue gorth identifies. even after the Constitution, most americans saw selves as virginians or pennsylvanians as 'posed to Americans, which made sense 'cause most o' their problems were being addressed at the local and state level. am thinking many people who are not american is shocked when they discover just how much state and local government autonomy there is in this curious nation. on these boards we rail 'bout national elections, but the reality is most o' the ordinary laws and government intrusions americans suffer or benefit from is achieved local and state.

the US already kinda has the apparatus to achieve what gorth suggests, but am suspecting you would never get enough americans to vote for a change which would functional result in the US returning to pre ww1 (or perhaps even pre civil war) reality o' the states being practical nations unto themselves. more than most western democracies, individual states is more capable (if still inept) at handling essentials o' day-to-day governance as well as addressing more exotic issues such as international trade n' such. the thing is, once you got national programs and apparatus such as social security, and an interstate highway system and national defense, is tough to decentralize and to reduce.  furthermore, not all states is capable or desirous o' such autonomy. have mentioned in the past that in spite o' texans occasional talk o' succession, they actual is depending on the national teat for sustenance far beyond the national average. states such as ny and california see a net loss in fed dollar benefits. converse, states such as texas is not in a position where they could easily endure an absence o' federal supporting dollars. get those states, and there is many, to agree to some serious long term pain from a return to real decentralization? 

regardless, is kinda amusing how the US started out embracing the solution gorth posits, and then abandoned it. no doubt many will argue granting the fed government greater power and authority were a mistake. is not an unreasonable argument, but is hardly axiomatic. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps is also worth noting the US started out with something called the articles o' confederation, which were a colossal failure and were abandoned in favor o' a bit more federalism. shay's rebellion were perhaps all too fresh in the minds o' the Constitutional delegates? dunno.

(edit: added a link for shay's rebellion 'cause expecting any non american to know 'bout such would be unfair. however, am gonna admit we didn't bother to read the linked material 'cause am lazy. we apologize in advance if the article is terribad.)

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Gromnir

[Raithe]

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/07/05/big-oil-execs-roam-free-climate-activist-gets-8-years-prison?

 

Apparently the Judge cited that attempting to stop the oil was akin to an act of terrorism, and thus the governments "terrorism enhanced sentencing" could be applied.

Environmentalists in recent days expressed outrage over the eight-year prison sentence handed to Jessica Reznicek—a nonviolent water protector who pleaded guilty to damaging equipment at the Dakota Access Pipeline in Iowa—while calling the fossil fuel companies who knowingly caused the climate emergency the real criminals who should be held to account.

United States District Court Judge Rebecca Goodgame Ebinger last week sentenced Jessica Reznicek to eight years behind bars, $3,198,512.70 in restitution, and three years' post-prison supervised release after the 39-year-old activist pleaded guilty to a single count of damaging an energy facility.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Raithe

[Gromnir]

"most important first amendment case"?

https://xkcd.com/1357/

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 9, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

Heh, yeah. I thought it was only in certain countries like North Korea where the government wants to have that kind of complete control over the media....

[BruceVC]

Im concerned with the US pullout from Afghanistan and how it will impact Bidens legacy if the country collapses under renewed Taliban attacks

I have been following several discussions around this and I watched Bidens speech yesterday and despite people saying "The Afghanistan  army is 300k strong and well resourced and has been trained " I am not convinced.  I hope they can stop the country sliding into chaos and violence....the last thing I want to see is the return of the barbaric Taliban 

But I also agree its time for the US to leave Afghanistan because the primary goals have been achieved and lots of money, time and resources have been spent training the new Afghanistan army over the last 20 years so I am not sure what else people can expect considering the geopolitical reality ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 hours ago, Raithe said:

Apparently the Judge cited that attempting to stop the oil was akin to an act of terrorism, and thus the governments "terrorism enhanced sentencing" could be applied.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/anti-protest-laws-threaten-indigenous-and-climate-movements

The push to clamp down on pipeline protests isn't new, but it is really troubling. A lot of people are going to end up in jail for protesting, regardless if it's peaceful or not. Climate news is almost always worse than expected, so I guess it's fitting that it also applies to legal issues.

But I guess the real threats to free speech are social media bans, college Republicans not having sex, and schools teaching the history of segregation. Prison time can't compare to your tinder match thinking you're too obnoxious to date.

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Heh, yeah. I thought it was only in certain countries like North Korea where the government wants to have that kind of complete control over the media....

There's a level of irony that people who spent decades saying everything was a slippery slope to the government seizing control of our lives want the government to seize control of our lives so they can post slurs on twitter.

[Guard Dog]

22 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

 

There's a level of irony that people who spent decades saying everything was a slippery slope to the government seizing control of our lives want the government to seize control of our lives so they can post slurs on twitter.

And you guys wonder about my nihilism and my cynicism. Politics in the United States is little more than a Civil War between two tribes who want their own flavor of autocracy.

[Gromnir]

On 7/9/2021 at 5:57 AM, Gorth said:

Heh, yeah. I thought it was only in certain countries like North Korea where the government wants to have that kind of complete control over the media....

there is something about the internet which short circuits brains. is multiple examples which would lend credence to such a hypothesis, but in the present context am gonna use the facebook-and-twitter-as-censors complaint. 

if trump wrote an op-ed and wanted the washington post and nyt to publish it, it would surprise nobody that in the US such publications cannot be compelled to print material they do not wish to be staining their product. am suspecting we not even need explain why this is the case as is just gonna feel offensive and unamerican to force the washington examiner to print a bernie sanders or aoc op ed 'bout the evils of global warming or tucker carlson. am suspecting conservatives and liberals is both gonna be near universal agreeing is wrong to compel publishers to use their resources to promote partisan opinions not shared by the publisher.  as such, the newspaper examples we offer is not first amendment relevant 'cause has nothing to do with government efforts to limit speech (duh) and is doubtful anybody would even suggest such a choice by a publisher not to print stories somehow counts as censorship. 

internet makes different? why? is 'cause facebook typically allows people to say whatever they wish to say? 

if there is a censorship issue which may be level'd at the tech giants, it is a contracts issue and depends on terms o' service. if facebook said to users that they could say whatever they wished w/o fear o' facebook interference, and then facebook censored anyways, then there would be a contracts issue and perhaps the disgruntled user could get back the money they didn't pay to use facebook? not a particular strong syllogism, eh?

*chuckle*

internet is indeed a little different from other kinda publishers 'cause unlike newspapers and even tv broadcasters, those who maintain internet fora are not legal liable to the same degree as is ordinary publishers. if a newspaper prints a story which contains facts which is untrue, even if is an op ed, the publisher as well as the author may be held liable if there is a subsequent libel cause o' action. Congress looked at the internet in its infancy and decided that holding internet publishers responsible same as print and tv and radio, or any rando person on the street who might dare to repeat a untrue statement which resulted in economic harm to a plaintiff was gonna undermine the value o' the internet as a means o' communication and education. imagine obsidian entertainment needing potential fact check every post before it is public displayed on these boards. the thing is, the same fox pundits complaining 'bout how facebook failure to be allowing q folks to tell lies using their resources is rising to a level o' untenable censorship is the same folks suggesting that facebook is not deserving their qualified immunity from libel/slander suits 'cause o' republish o' user content. remove the special carveout for internet publishers and do you believe the tech giants will be more or less inclined to prune offensive or questionable user content? 

ultimate, this is all just part o' the current gop's politics o' grievance. is no genuine policy issues, but we are gonna hear 'bout stolen elections, and critical race theory and big tech censorship while the mitch and others do everything they are able to delay and prevent any biden successes, even if such successes would benefit their own constituents.

gonna mostly ignore the groundhog day silliness o' @Guard Dog where he somehow uses this as an example o' they are all bad when this is in fact the unholy necromancy o' a kinda unique pre ww2 phenomenon in US politics. nothing from obama, bush, clinton or reagan were anything close to what we are seeing today, so is hardly useful as an example o' some kinda trend so much as the kinda reactionary bs we never thought were possible w/o a major war or devastating economic upheaval. *shrug* it turns out the great recession and the endemic hopelessness the bootstrap libertarians and the ultra-wealthy deride as a failure o' people to take advantage o' all the opportunities available to make personal success a reality in 21st century america (*eye-roll*), were enough to turn working class southerners, midwest farmers and out-of-work rust belt factory workers into a perpetual mob with no capacity for self reflection and a whole lotta anger just waiting for a demagogue to misdirect it. 'course the political leadership o' the gop has made only token efforts to halt this populist nightmare in large part 'cause citizens united  all but guaranteed the career politicians would put pragmatism before morality given how much cash is on the line.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we will note the hypocrisy o' more than a few obama fanbois when it comes to freedom of press. complain 'bout efforts to collect cellphone data o' nytimes reporters by trump were a horrendous violation too unamerican to endure but obama were doing the exact same with fox reporters. however, in a not so subtle rebuke o' obama, and a clear refutation o' the gd principle, biden made no effort to defend doj spying on press and public committed to make sure such did not continue during his administration. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

@Gromnirfor whatever it’s worth my “they are all the same” sentiment in this case is not directed at any political leadership. Rather it’s directed at “the people” who are pushing for them to be everything they shouldn’t be. If Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, heck even McGovern and O’Neil could see the Democrats today they would be horrified. Ditto for Coolidge, Eisenhower, Goldwater and Reagan for the Republicans.  
 

CPAC has been around since the ‘70s. A lot of very intelligent people have attended and addressed that convention over the years. Economists, scientists, decent political leaders. Most of them wouldn’t recognize that band of idiots that are there right now. If I had  come up to you in the 1980s and told you they were seriously discussing how to make a private citizen the President of the United States in a matter of days you probably wouldn’t even believe me. I wouldn’t have.

The People voting for the Democrats are the other side of bad. The crap they’re asking for is way too “Year Zero” for me. Plus it’s clear none of them have ever read and economics book. At least not one of the good ones.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Guard Dog
Grammar

[BruceVC]

52 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

@Gromnirfor whatever it’s worth my “they are all the same” sentiment in this case is not directed at any political leadership. Rather it’s directed at “the people” who are pushing for them to be everything they shouldn’t be. If Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, heck even McGovern and O’Neil could see the Democrats today they would be horrified. Ditto for Coolidge, Eisenhower, Goldwater and Reagan for the Republicans.  
 

CPAC has been around since the ‘70s. A lot of very intelligent people have attended and addressed that convention over the years. Economists, scientists, decent political leaders. Most of them wouldn’t recognize that band of idiots that are there right now. If I had  come up to you in the 1980s and told you they were seriously discussing how to make a private citizen the President of the United States in a matter of days you probably wouldn’t even believe me. I wouldn’t have.

The People voting for the Democrats are the other side of bad. The crap they’re asking for is way too “Year Zero” for me. Plus it’s clear none of them have ever read and economics book. At least not one of the good ones.

You make some good debatable points and someone can easily find examples of some of what you mention in the USA over the last 20 years or so

But to be fair to people who voted for Biden they didnt all vote for him because they believe in the Democrats ideas around the economy or how to address inequality or even because of BLM and its current influence . Some people voted for the Democrats because of this but undecided voters made the difference and allowed the Democrats to win

https://www.newsweek.com/2020/09/04/undecided-voters-were-key-trumps-win-2016-will-they-deliver-again-1526824.html

And I would argue it was the absolutely appalling handling of the pandemic that swung most undecided voters to Biden, I believe this because that is what would have made my mind up at the end if I could vote as a US citizen

The midterms or the next election once the pandemic is over will be the true test of whether the Democrats have real  policies or strategies that resonate with the majority of US voters

 

 

[Guard Dog]

Asked if US will deliver 'consequences' to Russia for ransomware attacks, Biden says 'yes'

No doubt Putin is trembling right about now.

 

[BruceVC]

Has anyone noticed when the US media generally ask Biden questions their doesnt seem to be any structure to  how questions are asked and they tend to scream questions at him creating this vociferous  deluge 

Its bedlam and I am not sure he minds, but its like he has this avuncular personality and its okay but its quite frenetic  

[rjshae]

25 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Has anyone noticed when the US media generally ask Biden questions their doesnt seem to be any structure to  how questions are asked and they tend to scream questions at him creating this vociferous  deluge 

Its bedlam and I am not sure he minds, but its like he has this avuncular personality and its okay but its quite frenetic  

Maybe they're out of practice? 

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, rjshae said:

Maybe they're out of practice? 

I think this is part of it because when Trump was president he use to ignore and insult different media houses and now journalists are aware they wont be treated like this when they addressing Biden .....so they making up for lost time 

And as I keep saying that despite my reservations about some of   Bidens policies and strategies I like him and do think he is doing a good job overall, especially around the pandemic and where the USA was,  so its always interesting  to see him try to respond to all these questions thrown at him