Best melee combo

[freddfranca]

@Boeroer@Haplokand anyone who wants to answer...

just in case I want to try a classic rogue build, with daggers, fast attacks and lots of criticals, the Trickster/FF still is a good choice?

[Boeroer]

Fast attacks and lots of crits sounds like a Berserker/Streetfighter with dual daggers. Or at least anything else with Streetfigher, not necessarily Trickster.

Played one with Marux Amanth + Pukestabber and all the speed goodies (Alkohol, Devil of Caroc + Abraham, Two Weapon Style, Frenzy, Bloodlust, Heating Up, Blackblade's Hood and so on) and all the dmg goodies (One Sands Alone, Blooded, Barbaric Smash, Bloody Slaughter, Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Blood Storm, Deep Wounds etc.). It's incredibly fast once you get flanked and has very high crit damage bonuses with Barbaric Smash, especially against near death enemies and when bloodied. You need to watch out for the seld damage though. The AR is quite good but you still are vulnerable when flanked. DoC Breastplate can be used to heal you on crit and you can wear Voidward & Ring of Greater Regeneration + use Stalwrd Defiance, but still good to wathc him closely.

Monk/Streetfighter is also nice. Devoted/Streetfigher is sturdier while still great offensively.

"Classic" rogue like that would be a single class Streetfighter, no? Gambit with DoC Breastplate and the right tavern bonus can bring you over 10 Guile rel. early. That means 100% hit to crit with Gambit which lets you spam it nonstop (until you roll a miss or graze, then you'll lose Guile). Also the dmg of Gambit raises with high Guile and leads to great numbers.       

[freddfranca]

19 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Fast attacks and lots of crits sounds like a Berserker/Streetfighter with dual daggers. Or at least anything else with Streetfigher, not necessarily Trickster.

Played one with Marux Amanth + Pukestabber and all the speed goodies (Alkohol, Devil of Caroc + Abraham, Two Weapon Style, Frenzy, Bloodlust, Heating Up, Blackblade's Hood and so on) and all the dmg goodies (One Sands Alone, Blooded, Barbaric Smash, Bloody Slaughter, Sneak Attack, Deathblows, Blood Storm, Deep Wounds etc.). It's incredibly fast once you get flanked and has very high crit damage bonuses with Barbaric Smash, especially against near death enemies and when bloodied. You need to watch out for the seld damage though. The AR is quite good but you still are vulnerable when flanked. DoC Breastplate can be used to heal you on crit and you can wear Voidward & Ring of Greater Regeneration + use Stalwrd Defiance, but still good to wathc him closely.

Monk/Streetfighter is also nice. Devoted/Streetfigher is sturdier while still great offensively.

"Classic" rogue like that would be a single class Streetfighter, no? Gambit with DoC Breastplate and the right tavern bonus can bring you over 10 Guile rel. early. That means 100% hit to crit with Gambit which lets you spam it nonstop (until you roll a miss or graze, then you'll lose Guile). Also the dmg of Gambit raises with high Guile and leads to great numbers.       

My problem with berserkers is that I die much fast.

I thought about the Trickster because of the tankiness he can provide. 
And about an Assassin/Beguiler? The cipher debuffs (Phantom Foes, Eyestrike, etc) triggers the Assassin passive, right? 
 

And I liked the SC Streetfighter, maybe its time for me to try a single class..

[Boeroer]

3 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

And about an Assassin/Beguiler? The cipher debuffs (Phantom Foes, Eyestrike, etc) triggers the Assassin passive, right? 

No, the only thing that unlocks the Assassin's passive are attack rolls from stealth or invisibility. Beguiler does nothing special for an Assassin. Actually I find it's a suboptimal combination.

 

 

4 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

And I liked the SC Streetfighter, maybe its time for me to try a single class..

Maybe. Just know that SC Rogue may feel a bit less interesting at first - because you have less options. But on the other hand you'll unlock new abilites a lot faster - and spamming Gambit can be a lot of fun. 

[freddfranca]

Yeah, I try the SC Streetfighter, but I dont know much about the atributes, is this ok 10/10/15/18/10/15 ? For starting weapons, rapier and dagger.

By the way, is it worth to use double rapier with modal for more crits, or it will be too slow?

Edited May 13, 2021 by freddfranca

[Not So Clever Hound]

An SC Assassin will not only have Gambit, but Vanishing Strike which is outstanding even if you don't abuse it with duration extension shenanigans. It will be best taken advantage of with a very fast attacking dual-wielder. Considering you're going to do a combination of full attacks and fast auto-attacks, it could be more optimal to have pukestabber or rust's poignard in your off-hand and something like a sabre (Scordeo's Edge as @Haplok mentioned in your mainhand). Combine with high stealth to close in on your enemy for alpha strike and all the rogue goodies and Assassin's Slippers for a free Smoke Veil and all the +ACC and +crit% DMG items you can find. You'll have a very rewarding Rogue/Assassin archteype that will be able to do so many nasty things on the battlefield.

You don't want to turn into a one trick pony, but at max level with +Guile bonuses you can use Assassin Slippers once, Vanishing Strike 4 times and still have Guile left for 1 Smoke Veil per encounter... Non-stop guerilla from the shadows.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Haplok]

IMO dual rapiers with modal are fine if you like that. Rapiers have fast attack speed, even with modal they are only marginally slower then "normal" speed weapons - and for me dual normal speed weapons are plenty fast enough. 

I agree with not taking the Streetfighter/Berserker. Been there and indeed the damage is sick. BUT my char did keep dieing all the time.... NOT fun.

I'd however still consider a multiclass with a monk. Simply because how insane "free" hit chains from Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming are with a high crit rate. Sometimes getting like 10 hits instead of 1... Maybe only vs enemies easy to crit... but it was a rather large group for me, I've found. And you can debuff enemies quite a bit (reason I've liked Confounding Blind - although with a fix mod).

Particularly on a monk Scordeo's Edge saber is very good, as it can stack a lot of Accuracy bonuses also (up to +20 AFAIR) and when Blade Cascade triggers, things get insane (and it triggers much more often when you make a lot of hit rolls with SF/HBD chains). Its nice to immediately cast Salvation of Time with a Priest then...

Edited May 13, 2021 by Haplok

[freddfranca]

@Not So Clever HoundI didn’t considered a SC Assassin, because I thought about something more direct. But I will think about it now.

@HaplokI was looking at this guide https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/102607-class-build-the-fast-assassin-deadfire-edition/

I don’t know if it’s outdated, but looks good.

 

[Kaylon]

Here's an old video I made to show how you can spam Gambit:

To be able to spam Gambit you need very high accuracy for both weapons (to ensure you never graze/miss and all hits are converted to crits). Scordeo's Edge gives high accuracy for both weapons and Blade Cascade greatly increases your dps. For the off hand Pukestabber is fast and has a long knockdown which works vs nearly all enemies. Another great choice for the off hand is Grave Calling (Drizzt style) which can perma paralyze/freeze any enemy without immunity to dex afflictions. VS enemies with very high deflection you can also use Tarn's Respite in the off hand (it lowers deflection), it lacks CC but combined with Vanishing Strike it's deadly... For pure dps the best combo would be Magran's Favor with modal (main hand) and Scordeo's Edge (off hand).

[Boeroer]

12 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

An SC Assassin will not only have Gambit, but Vanishing Strike which is outstanding even if you don't abuse it with duration extension shenanigans. It will be best taken advantage of with a very fast attacking dual-wielder. Considering you're going to do a combination of full attacks and fast auto-attacks, it could be more optimal to have pukestabber or rust's poignard in your off-hand and something like a sabre (Scordeo's Edge as @Haplok mentioned in your mainhand). Combine with high stealth to close in on your enemy for alpha strike and all the rogue goodies and Assassin's Slippers for a free Smoke Veil and all the +ACC and +crit% DMG items you can find. You'll have a very rewarding Rogue/Assassin archteype that will be able to do so many nasty things on the battlefield.

You don't want to turn into a one trick pony, but at max level with +Guile bonuses you can use Assassin Slippers once, Vanishing Strike 4 times and still have Guile left for 1 Smoke Veil per encounter... Non-stop guerilla from the shadows.

I like Vanishing Strikes, but imo Gambit with 100% crit conversion is better suited for party setup. 

Pure "Assassin stuff" where you backstab and assassinate from stealth and invisibility often requires too much work and attention to be effective for me in a party. It profits a lot from good setup and stealthy gameplay and is more "tactical" - which often leads to a situation where you park your party somewhere and do invisible stuff with the Assassin alone because the other party members will only mess things up. At least that's my experience when I don't use the Assassin with a caster combo but as "original" roguish weapon hitter. I remember my finished playthrough with an Assassin/Priest of Skaen: at some point it accidentally turned into a 95% solo run.

Streetfighter with Gambit can just run along with the others since it's not really complicated. Solo it can be great, too - especially once you also include weapons with on-crit effects like Rust's Poignard, Ball and Chain and such. Even bosses like Dragons and the Beast of Winter will be perma-prone and you can uphold this way longer than Vanishing Strikes because of the almost guaranteed refund. But I like it better with a party because it makes it much easier to debuff enemies' defenses so you can't really graze or miss.

As I said I really like Vanishing Strikes and the whole invisibility shebang - but it requires some "special" gameplay to be fun in my case. 

I mean you can also combine both and do Gambit while invisible from Vanishing Strikes of course as an Assassin (for a Streetfighter that doesn't make a lot of sense bc. he'll lose the flanking - unless he's bloodied). But the use of Vanishing Strikes already takes you under 100% conversion if you didn't get up to a lot of max Guile. 

One has to say that a Rogue with Gambit turns into a total One-Trick Pony. You can retrain then and only pick passives + Gambit - because you won't use your Guile for anything else anymore except maybe Gouging Strike and Smoke Veil in some special cases. 

Edit: ninja'd by Kaylon.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Boeroer

[freddfranca]

34 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

Here's an old video I made to show how you can spam Gambit:

To be able to spam Gambit you need very high accuracy for both weapons (to ensure you never graze/miss and all hits are converted to crits). Scordeo's Edge gives high accuracy for both weapons and Blade Cascade greatly increases your dps. For the off hand Pukestabber is fast and has a long knockdown which works vs nearly all enemies. Another great choice for the off hand is Grave Calling (Drizzt style) which can perma paralyze/freeze any enemy without immunity to dex afflictions. VS enemies with very high deflection you can also use Tarn's Respite in the off hand (it lowers deflection), it lacks CC but combined with Vanishing Strike it's deadly... For pure dps the best combo would be Magran's Favor with modal (main hand) and Scordeo's Edge (off hand).

That was beautiful to see.

 

and @BoeroerI have the same feeling about the pure assassin, too much planning. I prefer something more “direct”. I liked the Trickster because he gave the feeling of “oh, I am untouchable”.

[Haplok]

1 hour ago, freddfranca said:

 

@HaplokI was looking at this guide https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/102607-class-build-the-fast-assassin-deadfire-edition/

I don’t know if it’s outdated, but looks good.

 

Well, I wouldn't choose Shattered Pillar monk. Not without the Community Patch anyway (restores Wound limit to 10, like other subclasses). Still cannot get Wounds with active ability attacks if I remember correctly, so still not great.

Nalpazca might be the best overall, but personally I hate reliance on drugs (and the risk of a nasty debuff if you're hit with Arcane Dampener). Helwalker is damn strong, but a bit risky for close quarters melee without a durable multiclass (could be okay with a Trickster maybe - could be a nice combo!). Vanilla monk is... okay I guess. But personally I'd rather still pick my favorite Forbidden Fist. Both for own synergies with stuff like Stunning Surge duration, disabling healing on tough/annoying enemies and for other party members and their CC and debuffs. If you also pick Toxic Strike with decent Int its just an OP combo.

I'd not pick Torment's Reach/Raised on such a dual wielder, though - its a Primary attack, so that would slow you down.

As for rogue subclass... IMO Assasin only makes sense if you plan to take advantage of the Stealth mechanics (or Vanishing strikes if SC). Streetfighter is a beast offensively, but you must be careful when combining it with squishier classes.  Trickster is always great.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Haplok

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Pure "Assassin stuff" where you backstab and assassinate from stealth and invisibility often requires too much work and attention to be effective in a party imo

That is all fair, and truly my experience and love for Assassin gameplay mostly comes from Solo. Thanks for pointing this out.

In a party, an Assassin multiclass can still be very helpful because it can momentarily reach very high ACC to land powerful abilities that target Fortitude. Maneuvering from invisibility to land a high accuracy Clear Out with an Assassin/Devoted wielding for instance WotEP on a group of enemy packed against your tank can be very fun . Same of course for Caster/Assassin combos.

But indeed to cruise along with a balanced party and minimal micromanagement a Streefighter or Trickster are probably better choices.

[freddfranca]

3 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

That is all fair, and truly my experience and love for Assassin gameplay mostly comes from Solo. Thanks for pointing this out.

In a party, an Assassin multiclass can still be very helpful because it can momentarily reach very high ACC to land powerful abilities that target Fortitude. Maneuvering from invisibility to land a high accuracy Clear Out with an Assassin/Devoted wielding for instance WotEP on a group of enemy packed against your tank can be very fun . Same of course for Caster/Assassin combos.

But indeed to cruise along with a balanced party and minimal micromanagement a Streefighter or Trickster are probably better choices.

I saw an Assassin/Evoker build on YouTube. Looked very interesting, maybe I will try some of these days

[Haplok]

Personally I'd go Bloodmage. Loosing Conjuration is painful.

Also, shocking oneself with Chain Lightning while wearing Deltro's Cage helmet is the single largest damage multiplier... and when you do that you DON'T want the Chain Lightning spell to be duplicated (like what Evoker special can do).

[Not So Clever Hound]

6 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

Looked very interesting, maybe I will try some of these days

It is the king of ending fights before they begin, if you're into this kind of gameplay.

• Max MIG/PER/INT/DEX, dump CON/RES. Hoard +PL items for Fire/Freeze spells and items that boost ACC, DMG, Crit DMG.
• Start fight with a Delayed Fireball and maybe toss another one on top, continue with Shadowflames when combat start. Maybe Smoke Veil, get close to survivors and finish them with Precisely Piercing Burst from invisibility. Rince and repeat.

It is extremely powerful. But depending on your beliefs regarding honor and combat, you might be bringing shame upon your dojo .

[Kaylon]

SC streetfighter or streetfighter/monk works best with dual blunderbusses because you can trigger the bonus easily with Powder Burns while being safe. With dual mortars you can apply AoE bleeds/afflictions, while dual blundebusses with Gambit and the ring of Clenched Muscle are nice  for single target dps. For melee streetfighters you need a priest with BDD in the party or else it's too hard to trigger the bonuses.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Kaylon

[freddfranca]

I think I will go for the Trickster/Helwalker, max resolve and perception. My idea is a good critical build but at the same time is hard to be hit.

The other idea is a Streetfighter/Wizard, but I don’t know if the mage defensive buffs worth the trade and if the rest of the build will fit this idea.

[Haplok]

17 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

I think I will go for the Trickster/Helwalker, max resolve and perception. My idea is a good critical build but at the same time is hard to be hit.

The other idea is a Streetfighter/Wizard, but I don’t know if the mage defensive buffs worth the trade and if the rest of the build will fit this idea.

Sounds good! Just remember to equip heavy armor before ship battles and maybe a few other tough encounters.

 

Streetfighter doesn't do anything for your casting ability (other then reduced Recovery when Blooded, I guess), so I'd only use that combo if I to mostly ignore casting (except a few buffs) and wanted to melee only. Then again, in such a case, I'd prefer other multiclasses, I think (fighter, paladin or even cipher, monk, barbarian).

[Haplok]

In case anyone's interested, for my FF/Trickster Shadowdancer I took a lot of inspiration from Frykas' Shadowdrugon build:

 

[freddfranca]

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

In case anyone's interested, for my FF/Trickster Shadowdancer I took a lot of inspiration from Frykas' Shadowdrugon build:

 

Nice guide, I didn’t knew this one yet. Gave me a good idea of what I want, but I will stick with helwalker because I don’t even know how the Nazpalca works

 

[Kaylon]

2 hours ago, freddfranca said:

I think I will go for the Trickster/Helwalker, max resolve and perception. My idea is a good critical build but at the same time is hard to be hit.

The other idea is a Streetfighter/Wizard, but I don’t know if the mage defensive buffs worth the trade and if the rest of the build will fit this idea.

Make no mistake, the trickster is not a tank and you will die just as fast as another rogue if you play recklessly. Also the helwalker is a bad choice to multi with a rogue because you become even more squishier and you will hardly feel the bonus from might as a rogue. It's better to pick a plain monk if you don't want to bother with drugs. 

PS. The "tankiest" damage dealer is the soulblade/trickster - you can stack defenses (Borrowed Instinct + Llengrath Displaced Image + Tuotilo's Palm + Weapon and Shield Style), while spamming Soul Annihilation with Sun and Moon just as fast as a dual wielder.

[freddfranca]

10 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

Make no mistake, the trickster is not a tank and you will die just as fast as another rogue if you play recklessly. Also the helwalker is a bad choice to multi with a rogue because you become even more squishier and you will hardly feel the bonus from might as a rogue. It's better to pick a plain monk if you don't want to bother with drugs. 

PS. The "tankiest" damage dealer is the soulblade/trickster - you can stack defenses (Borrowed Instinct + Llengrath Displaced Image + Tuotilo's Palm + Weapon and Shield Style), while spamming Soul Annihilation with Sun and Moon just as fast as a dual wielder.

Thanks for the advice, but I wasn’t planning to tank with him. My main tank will be Eder, I just want to be more like a duelist, able to face some enemies without take much hits

[Kaylon]

5 minutes ago, freddfranca said:

Thanks for the advice, but I wasn’t planning to tank with him. My main tank will be Eder, I just want to be more like a duelist, able to face some enemies without take much hits

I wasn't talking about tanking either. However, once you start dealing big damage, your target (at least) will switch aggro to you and 2-3 hits in a row can be more than a helwalker/rogue can handle.

[freddfranca]

4 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I wasn't talking about tanking either. However, once you start dealing big damage, your target (at least) will switch aggro to you and 2-3 hits in a row can be more than a helwalker/rogue can handle.

I got it. Thanks again for the advice.