The all things Poltical topic - We bear our banners aloft, boots like Drums Our Cadence quick, our countenance dire.

[Zoraptor]

 

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Firstly the ANC was never a real terrorist organization because the Apartheid system wasn't a legitimate system and  the ANC was trying to achieve legitimate and reasonable change and true equality. So the labelling of the ANC as a terrorist organization was inaccurate. The ANC was never the same as other real terrorist groups like the IRA or Libya from that time period 

Secondly the so called " alliance " between the ANC from the 1970'Ss   was not  with Hamas, it was with the PLO and that is not the same as the Hamas today so your argument is  false as it  is not the same historical friendship with the same political group 

Thirdly nowadays  Hamas is politically aligned with the hardliners in Iran and refuses to recognize  Israel has a right to exist, you cannot negotiate  or compromise if one side refuses you have a right to exist. That falls on Hamas

Finally the ANC is split nowadays and inconsistent on many  global foreign policy decisions and that was not my original point which I will repeat. Their are  support groups within SA that ignore any violence from Hamas and expect that all South Africans must vilify Israel as the aggressors. Firing hundreds of rockets into Israel does not demonstrate peace or non-aggression

Firstly, ANC actually received extensive training from Libya and the IRA. Being 'terrorists' doesn't stop you also being freedom fighters, you're just way more likely get labelled as terrorist if you're going against the interests of the group doing the labeling. In the ANC's case that was its association with the SACP, with western powers still tacitly supporting South Africa because it was a bulwark against communism.

Secondly, Hamas didn't even exist in the 70s. It was established- with support by Israel- as a counter to the PLO, in the late 80s. They could theoretically have supported the ANC for... maybe a year.

Thirdly, that's irrelevant to South Africa or the ANC. Israel and apartheid era RSA literally had military agreements and sanction busting military supply- including, allegedly, a nuke for uranium swap- so thinking that they'd just decide to swap sides to the one selling their oppressors the guns used to oppress them is laughable. Tough noogies for Israel, might have been different if they'd been on the right side of history instead of propping up white supremacists.

Finally, it's still no surprise that the ANC hates all the apartheid like things Israel does, and there are a multitude of reasons for them supporting the Palestinians- and splitter groups like the EFF* are only more radical, not less. Any expectation that they'd support Israel against its version of the ANC is laughable.

*not the US group supporting internet freedom

[Gromnir]

well, today's Congressional hearings regarding january 6 were 'bout as partisan as we mighta' expected. the witnesses did all they could to avoid answering relevant questions and when they were confronted with inconsistencies in previous written testimony, they pretended as if there were no such inconsistencies.

am not sure why rosen were allowed to avoid questions about whether or not he spoke with trump. is kinda questionable rosen could raise executive privilege regarding details o' a conversation with a now former President, but at least that would be a reasonable position to take. rosen did not invoke privilege. rosen refused to speak 'bout conversations, 'cause? regardless, refusing to admit whether a conversation took place with a now former President wouldn't have been protected by privilege, but he refused to answer that basic question, and the committee just let it slide. 

'course the speechifying from both sides o' the aisle were complete worthless save for fact it did provide moments o' dark humor.

HA! Good Fun!

ps curious side note: 'ccording to comments from carrolyn maloney, today's testimony were scheduled to accommodate christopher wray o' the fbi, but he nevertheless refused to make himself available for questioning. supposed, wray will testify before oversight... next month. is mid may and we have heard little more than crickets from the fbi regarding january 6. improbable, but it is our reality. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

 

Firstly, ANC actually received extensive training from Libya and the IRA. Being 'terrorists' doesn't stop you also being freedom fighters, you're just way more likely get labelled as terrorist if you're going against the interests of the group doing the labeling. In the ANC's case that was its association with the SACP, with western powers still tacitly supporting South Africa because it was a bulwark against communism.

Secondly, Hamas didn't even exist in the 70s. It was established- with support by Israel- as a counter to the PLO, in the late 80s. They could theoretically have supported the ANC for... maybe a year.

Thirdly, that's irrelevant to South Africa or the ANC. Israel and apartheid era RSA literally had military agreements and sanction busting military supply- including, allegedly, a nuke for uranium swap- so thinking that they'd just decide to swap sides to the one selling their oppressors the guns used to oppress them is laughable. Tough noogies for Israel, might have been different if they'd been on the right side of history instead of propping up white supremacists.

Finally, it's still no surprise that the ANC hates all the apartheid like things Israel does, and there are a multitude of reasons for them supporting the Palestinians- and splitter groups like the EFF* are only more radical, not less. Any expectation that they'd support Israel against its version of the ANC is laughable.

*not the US group supporting internet freedom

You not wrong with some of the historical ties the ANC had to real terrorist groups and I am glad you are aware of that history, their are some things that you mentioned that arent 100 % accurate like the ANC didnt receive extensive training by the IRA and Libya it was  more the USSR and Red China that trained the ANC but that was only because of the Cold War. The training that the ANC received from the Libya and the likes of the IRA was minor but I dont want to be pedantic so yes I can understand why the ANC thinks it has this historical friendship with the likes of the PLO\Hamas and  yes you right about the historical relationship with Israel and the Palestinians and its understandable 

But this is where this modern day support for the likes of Hamas  is inconsistent to the values of the ANC now,  SA only achieved its 1994 election because of compromise and reconciliation. Thats an irrefutable historical fact, the ANC  realized that despite being the victims of Apartheid that this was necessary for numerous reasons

Hamas quite simply doesn't and refuses to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist and this is a huge difference between the ANC and Hamas nowadays. In SA every single time their is a discussion around the Palestinians and Israel this never comes up as the valid reason for the conflict being prolonged 

So in other words in the almost impossible event that the ANC was somehow the mediator between Israel and the Palestinians the ANC would be shocked and surprised to learn that Hamas refused to acknowledge Israel has a right to exist because this is not how SA achieved peace and the 1994 election and they would expect Hamas to recognize this but of course they wont 

So really my concern with support for Hamas is not because I question the historical " friendship " but its because the world has changed from the 1970's and the time of Apartheid and before some South Africans blindly throw their support behind the Palestinians they should be well informed about how ideologically things have changed and what the modern conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is really about nowadays 

 

[Guard Dog]

13 hours ago, Gromnir said:

poor get poorer and rich get richer in some misguided attempt to achieve an obtuse notion o' fairness? 

HA! Good Fun!

Isn’t fairness what it’s all about? I believe I’ve heard on more than one occasion that is the point of “social justice“. Fairness. Maybe those folks should beware what they wish for.

but like I said. It ain’t up to me. I’m just a crazy old man living in the woods talking to his dog. I have zero say in public policy.

[Guard Dog]

AOC and Greene get onto it

I would love to see those to actually fight LOL. Anyway I am sick and tired of hearing about both of them. Especially Greene and how “dangerous” she is to “democracy “. On that note I’m getting pretty tired of hearing about all the nonexistent threats to democracy. So what that a whole bunch of people thought the election was stolen. Did that change the outcome? There’s a whole lot of people who don’t believe the Moonlanding was real. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. There are 535 people in Congress. Out of that like maybe six or seven are nut jobs. Ten at the most.  But the news media on both the left and the right incessantly focuses on them all the while telling their lickspittle audiences that “this is what the opposition looks like and they are coming to GET YOU”.  The first Congress ever convened in like 1789 or something like that. Ever since then there have been a handful of nut jobs in every single body. This bull crap is not new.  Nihil sub sole novum.
 

as far as threat to democracy are concerned there was one. In January. When the president ordered the vice president not to certify an election he lost. Fortunately the vice president had integrity. That idiotic riot was not an insurrection. And it was not a threat to democracy. It was a handful of jackasses that did something stupid. No more a threat to democracy than antifa taking over part of Seattle. Or people burning their own city down in “protest“. Just jackasses doing stupid s—t. There will still be an election every  other November and the winners will still take office. All this garbage about “threats to democracy“ is just a pretext for the people in charge of the government right now to call their opposition “enemies of the people“. I don’t know what’s more nauseating. The fact that they get away with it or the fact that so many people buy into it.

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

AOC and Greene get onto it

<stuff>

In the end, it all boils down to: Does the story sell? Does the story need a bit of help for it to be sold? Who *really* has an interest in selling the story? Who owns the media? And who owns the owners of the media? Etc.

I know, it's a rabbit hole, but welcome to my way of thinking

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

AOC and Greene get onto it

I would love to see those to actually fight LOL. Anyway I am sick and tired of hearing about both of them. Especially Greene and how “dangerous” she is to “democracy “. On that note I’m getting pretty tired of hearing about all the nonexistent threats to democracy. So what that a whole bunch of people thought the election was stolen. Did that change the outcome? There’s a whole lot of people who don’t believe the Moonlanding was real. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. There are 535 people in Congress. Out of that like maybe six or seven are nut jobs. Ten at the most.  But the news media on both the left and the right incessantly focuses on them all the while telling their lickspittle audiences that “this is what the opposition looks like and they are coming to GET YOU”.  The first Congress ever convened in like 1789 or something like that. Ever since then there have been a handful of nut jobs in every single body. This bull crap is not new.  Nihil sub sole novum.
 

as far as threat to democracy are concerned there was one. In January. When the president ordered the vice president not to certify an election he lost. Fortunately the vice president had integrity. That idiotic riot was not an insurrection. And it was not a threat to democracy. It was a handful of jackasses that did something stupid. No more a threat to democracy than antifa taking over part of Seattle. Or people burning their own city down in “protest“. Just jackasses doing stupid s—t. There will still be an election every  other November and the winners will still take office. All this garbage about “threats to democracy“ is just a pretext for the people in charge of the government right now to call their opposition “enemies of the people“. I don’t know what’s more nauseating. The fact that they get away with it or the fact that so many people buy into it.

I tend to agree with your overall point that the recent developments in the USA dont necessarily mean " its a sign of the end of Democracy ". I have been hearing that for several years from people opposed to the EU and the surprise around   the BREXIT vote from the likes of Nigel Farage and when Trump won in 2016 I heard the same thing from the left and liberals and none of these prognostications of Democratic doom and gloom have been proven true so I agree we should try to not overreact

But one thing Trump challenging the 2020 legitimate  election outcome caused is some people in most  of the Democratic countries in the world say things like " you see, Democracy is a false narrative and is not sustainable ....look  at what is happening in the USA " !!!

Of course most of these comments are from people who have never cared about the principles of Democracy and dont like the USA anyway and will always criticize its decisions where applicable 

So it  just creates an annoying type of commentary that is both unnecessarily anti-Democracy and " anti-Western " ...thats one of real outcomes of the 6 January Capitol insurrection violence and Trump refusing to accept he lost 

Edited May 13, 2021 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I tend to agree with your overall point that the recent developments in the USA dont necessarily mean " its a sign of the end of Democracy ". I have been hearing that for several years from people opposed to the EU and the surprise around   the BREXIT vote from the likes of Nigel Farage and when Trump won in 2016 I heard the same thing from the left and liberals and none of these prognostications of Democratic doom and gloom have been proven true so I agree we should try to not overreact

But one thing Trump challenging the 2020 legitimate  election outcome caused is some people in most  of the Democratic countries in the world say things like " you see, Democracy is a false narrative and is not sustainable ....look  at what is happening in the USA " !!!

Of course most of these comments are from people who have never cared about the principles of Democracy and dont like the USA anyway and will always criticize its decisions where applicable 

So it  just creates an annoying type of commentary that is both unnecessarily anti-Democracy and " anti-Western " ...thats one of real outcomes of the 6 January Capitol insurrection violence and Trump refusing to accept he lost 

That was not an insurrection. It was a mob. A riot. In December 1860, South Carolina seceded from the United States. Four months later it told it’s militia to fire on Fort Sumter. That was an insurrection. Those idiots thought they were doing some kind of a “protest“. They had no idea of going in there and overthrowing the government taking over the country. That’s what it insurrection is. Calling what happened an insurrection is deliberately mischaracterizing it for political purposes. What actually happened was already pretty freaking terrible. It’s both cynical and dishonest to make it sound worse.

[rjshae]

9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

That was not an insurrection. It was a mob. A riot. In December 1860, South Carolina seceded from the United States. Four months later it told it’s militia to fire on Fort Sumter. That was an insurrection. Those idiots thought they were doing some kind of a “protest“. They had no idea of going in there and overthrowing the government taking over the country. That’s what it insurrection is. Calling what happened an insurrection is deliberately mischaracterizing it for political purposes. What actually happened was already pretty freaking terrible. It’s both cynical and dishonest to make it sound worse.

Insurrection (noun): a violent uprising against an authority or government.

It more or less fits the definition, but then technically so do many anti-government riots. The 14th amendment, section 3, is specifically for those seeking government office. Thus it applies to the last President.

[Guard Dog]

Palm Beach police contingency planning for Trump indictment

I have to say I would have to have a big bowl of popcorn and be parked next to the TV for that one.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Isn’t fairness what it’s all about? I believe I’ve heard on more than one occasion that is the point of “social justice“. Fairness. Maybe those folks should beware what they wish for.

but like I said. It ain’t up to me. I’m just a crazy old man living in the woods talking to his dog. I have zero say in public policy.

we observed this were 'bout an obtuse notion o' fairness. a flat tax disproportionate impacts the poorest elements o' society, which is exactly why absolute NO flat income tax  plan advocated by even the most hardarsed republican in the last +75 years has ignored the need to significant increase filer deductible or reduce that flat tax to near 0% for folks making less than X dollars. 'cause sending more families into poverty does not help anybody and eventual costs all americans more money. obtuse masquerading as fair.

what would also be fair is a lottery. not a you-win-millions-of-dollars, but more like the short story. some % of americans lose all wealth instead of life. would be equal beneficial for the economy as your suggestion, and you know what, it would be fair. equal chance for those with little more than debt to lose everything as for bezos. that would be fair.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

we have a version of that lottery already. They’re called IRS audits!

I remember reading that story a long long time ago. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that story inspired one of the vaults in fallout new Vegas.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

Speaking of lotto, Ohio’s million-dollar idea: Lottery prizes for vaccinations. 

Sad that it has to come to that.

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

as far as threat to democracy are concerned there was one. In January. When the president ordered the vice president not to certify an election he lost. Fortunately the vice president had integrity. That idiotic riot was not an insurrection. And it was not a threat to democracy. It was a handful of jackasses that did something stupid. No more a threat to democracy than antifa taking over part of Seattle. 

more false equivalency.

it was the f'ing US Capitol. many o' the rioters were purposeful attempting to interfere with the legislative confirmation o' the results o' the Presidential election and it were more a matter o' luck than anything else that more people were not killed, especial when one recognizes that dozens of law enforcement officers were injured, some grievously so. 

one Congressman gets killed or paralyzed or blinded? the mob was within a couple dozen yards o' a few legislators. some ass backwards alt-right radio junkie from kentucky manages to use a stun gun on nancy pelosi and she dies. not a complete shocking result considering the chaos which were taking place. unlike seattle, we weren't talking 'bout an empty court house after hours or somesuch. US freaking Capitol. how is that difference not sinking in even now? you think the patriot act were good for democracy? what do you think is the response if nancy pelosi or mike pence died? when we saw the towers go down on 9/11, am ashamed to admit our first thought were as a Con Law guy as 'posed to a human being. we felt sympathy for those dying, but we were terrified what would be the US response to the attacks, and the freedoms which would die along with the thousands o' innocents.

so, while America is losing its collective mind on january 7th after at least one Congressman dies, trump who were already having folks such as general flynn telling him to impose martial law over election results...

write the rest o' the narrative from this point and be certain o' a happy, peaceful and democratic resolution.

am not sure what some o' you folks witnessed on january 6, but if you saw a relative nothing burger which had zero chance o' affecting american democracy, then your reading o' history is perhaps not as deep as you believe.  a mob, by its very nature is unpredictable, and this mob were inside the Capitol while trump were continuing to tell 'em what a failure were pence and how unfair it were the election were stolen. more than a few o' those happy not insurrectionists were armed. clearly weren't a matter o' having a good plan and airtight security which prevented the situation from being worse. situation coulda' gone much different and much worse and results woulda' made the patriot act response look positively pedestrian by comparison.

january 6 were way worse than most americans is willing to admit or realize.  given what happened on january 6, one dead Congressman woulda' shocked few.

edit: added the sen. murray video

today would be much different if the very plausible had occurred.

oh, and pence, in spite o' refusing to interfere with the ceremonial electoral college ballot confirmation, has been silent regarding the january 6 attack. the post january 6 cowardice o' pence and other republicans only concerned 'bout 2022 and 2024 makes us far less confident that the choice to confirm the election results on january 6 was a sure thing.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 13, 2021 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

Just now, Gfted1 said:

Speaking of lotto, Ohio’s million-dollar idea: Lottery prizes for vaccinations. 

Sad that it has to come to that.

the ohio lottery is ridiculous, and likely a very good idea.  dewine and the folks in ohio came up with a plan to address a problem, and they are not pretending the remaining antivaxxers is gonna be convinced by doctors or celebrities. a couple minute public service announcement from trump might make a difference, but short o' that, this is the best practical solution anybody has made to try and reach the intractable.

God help us.

HA! Good Fun! 

[ComradeYellow]

Biden Open to Infrastructure Compromise as Talks With GOP Begin (msn.com)

I really really really want Team Red to all have their private parts removed.

Even the Chinese government and business community all seem to be willing to push forward on state infrastructure projects, despite their grotesque fascist culture.

Not the GOP!  Business leaders should call the shots and everyone should go back to the slave pits and make scraps.

[Gromnir]

Gaetz ally plans to plead guilty and cooperate with prosecutors

greenberg is a terrible witness. understatement. 33 counts including sex traffik of a minor is not the guy who gets cooperation agreements on a whim. won't take a defense attorney much effort to convince any finder o' fact (jury or judge) greenberg will say anything to save his own skin.

in an ordinary situation we would say prosecutors offering a deal to a guy such as greenberg means they has confirmed legitimacy o' info received, but am not sure. 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Speaking of lotto, Ohio’s million-dollar idea: Lottery prizes for vaccinations. 

Sad that it has to come to that.

True, but it's probably cheaper than the economic cost of another surge.

[ComradeYellow]

15 minutes ago, rjshae said:

True, but it's probably cheaper than the economic cost of another surge.

How about another "lottery" solution?

Every cent the government makes off of lottery ticket sales should go to public works projects like Infrastructure and Covid vaccinations.  I'm really shocked people don't see the value in state/government gambling initiatives, especially since Americans are biggest whiners and complainers about paying taxes. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by ComradeYellow

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, ComradeYellow said:

Every cent the government makes off of lottery ticket sales should go to public works projects like Infrastructure...

In IL, 25% get routed back into the state.

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/may/13/israel-launches-ground-operation-in-gaza-after-days-of-airsstrikes-follow-updates

IDF entering Gaza. or at least just attacking from the ground.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Malcador

[Raithe]

https://www.comicsands.com/michigan-matt-maddock-fact-checkers-2652975926.html

Matt Maddock, a Republican state Congressman from Michigan, is well known for his refusal to accept the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election.
Like others in the GOP, Maddock's never questioned the legitimacy of the results of his own election.
Maddock and his wife, the co-chair of the Michigan GOP, even organized multiple busloads of people to participate in the January 6 insurrection.
Obviously, provable facts aren't a high priority for Maddock and fact checkers have been a constant annoyance for him.
Retaliating against those who point out when he is lying, Maddock recently introduced the Fact Checker Registration Act.
It would require all fact checkers in Michigan to register with the Secretary of State and "insure themselves with $1 million fidelity bonds.
According to the bill, any fact checker could be sued by any party for "any wrongful conduct that is a violation" of state law and would be subject to a "$1,000 fine per day for each day the violation continued."

[Zoraptor]

Amazing how the latest round of Israel/ Palestine broke out so close to Lapid being offered a chance to form a government instead of Netanyahu. Barely 3 days after Bibi lost his mandate and the Israeli Police were storming the Temple Mount and injuring hundreds, so very coincidentally making it impossible for Lapid to get a majority via Arab parties. Man would do literally anything to avoid seeing the back of a prison cell, including provoking yet another pointless conflict to boost his popularity via Rally Round the Flag. This time the damage is likely to be even worse thanks to the significant inter communal violence in Israel proper.

I strongly suspect he'll try pulling an Erdogan and get the Israeli Arab political parties banned again for 'disloyalty' before the next election.

[Bartimaeus]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

one Congressman gets killed or paralyzed or blinded? the mob was within a couple dozen yards o' a few legislators. some ass backwards alt-right radio junkie from kentucky manages to use a stun gun on nancy pelosi and she dies. not a complete shocking result considering the chaos which were taking place. unlike seattle, we weren't talking 'bout an empty court house after hours or somesuch. US freaking Capitol. how is that difference not sinking in even now? you think the patriot act were good for democracy? what do you think is the response if nancy pelosi or mike pence died? when we saw the towers go down on 9/11, am ashamed to admit our first thought were as a Con Law guy as 'posed to a human being. we felt sympathy for those dying, but we were terrified what would be the US response to the attacks, and the freedoms which would die along with the thousands o' innocents.

Correct me if I'm wrong or misremembering, but insurrectionists were, at one point, literally just one hallway away from Vice President Pence, after they'd been loudly chanting outside that he should be hanged. I cannot even imagine the eventual response from Congress if the unthinkable had happened. If not for the actions of a few very brave, clever, and also horribly ill-equipped security officers misdirecting and corralling the insurrectionists (while also not inciting more violence, I might add!) for as long as they could to allow our elected officials the time to escape and take shelter...

Trump is a demagogue, a ruler of the mob - always has been, always will be. It was absolutely his mob, his insurrection, an insurrection he refused to put or slow down in its most critical stages when he had the opportunity to at least try. The fact that it was not successful, the fact that it was kind of sad and pathetic (and yet simultaneously very dangerous for our elected officials), does not take away from it being an insurrection that Trump had a direct hand in helping incite.

Also, Palenstine/Israel meme:

Too true, way too true.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Darkpriest]

If you guus think that YoY 4.2 CPI with MONTHLY 0.9 CPI was bad, the front running YoY PPI just hit 6.2, with MONTHLY core PPI going 0.7 for a second month in a row.

Prepare your wheelbarrows. 

Foreign buyers reluctant to buy 30Y TSY bonds, sending cost of long term debt higher. If that attiitude will spillover to 10Y TSY with next CPI print and Dems + Biden will still want to run some high cash printed money fueled "infrastructure bill" or worse - another run of stimmy checks, expect some pain. 

 

Even this piece of crap notices the 'speedbumps' 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/553222-biden-spending-plans-hit-speed-bumps

Edited May 14, 2021 by Darkpriest