SC Tank

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't have MIG over 12, but that's just me. 

[Andres Arigon]

30 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I wouldn't have MIG over 12, but that's just me. 

Could I ask you why 12? Sweet spot?

So something like..

Might: 12
Con: 10
Dex: 8
Pre: 14
Int: 15
Res: 18

What about engagement as a Wiz tank?

Also, is there a cap? Why is not good to go over 20 stats? (including buff) 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Andres Arigon

[The Berathian]

40 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Yeah that make sense.

Something like that make more sense?

Might: 18
Con: 15
Dex: 8
Pre: 12
Int: 15
Res: 10

What should I drop to put more point in Res (turn based)

I would get strength to 11. You get a bonus, but not much of one. This will increase your passive healing a bit. With an inspiration, this will get your str to 16, situationally. Which is far better because then you can control how much damage you do to yourself. Res should be at 11 or 15. Those are the sweet spots. At 11, it is easy to hit res 16, and then go even higher with items. At 15, you can hit res 20 with an inspiration, and then go even higher with items, which grants you spectacular returns. 

 

[Andres Arigon]

7 minutes ago, The Berathian said:

I would get strength to 11. You get a bonus, but not much of one. This will increase your passive healing a bit. With an inspiration, this will get your str to 16, situationally. Which is far better because then you can control how much damage you do to yourself. Res should be at 11 or 15. Those are the sweet spots. At 11, it is easy to hit res 16, and then go even higher with items. At 15, you can hit res 20 with an inspiration, and then go even higher with items, which grants you spectacular returns. 

 

Hi.

I've just asked the same question in my previous post. 

Is there any attribute cap above 20? I would like to understand why is not "good" to max attributes 

[thelee]

49 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Could I ask you why 12? Sweet spot?

underlining something boeroer said, in addition to might increasing damage/healing it also increases the self-damage from the bloodmage's blood sacrifice. it's actually working against your higher con.

 

49 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Also, is there a cap? Why is not good to go over 20 stats? (including buff) 

there is a total cap of 35, but at character creation the cap is typically 18, with a few cases (based on racial bonuses and backgrounds) where you can go up to 19, 20, and for an orlan from the white that wends, 21 perception. (edit: this latter point has made hearth orlan supplant wood elf as my preferred race in recent plays)

 

edit: in practice it's fairly uncommon to get to 35 without explicitly gunning for it. might is probably easiest using a helwalker. intellect/constitution probably next easiest by virtue of using any monk (duality of mortal presence)

Edited May 3, 2021 by thelee

[thelee]

13 minutes ago, The Berathian said:

Res should be at 11 or 15. Those are the sweet spots. At 11, it is easy to hit res 16, and then go even higher with items.

i would kindly disagree. i tend to either max out RES (19-20, depending on race, though generally i pick a race that lets me get to 20 if i'm going this path) or pretty much ignore it--taking a few points out of it--and only rarely do something in between when it comes to making my own character/hirelings. for a modest survivability boost i think putting a few points into CON has better overall utility than RES. this may also be a matter of difficulty, since on PotD you start off essentially at -15 defenses (enemies have an accuracy bonus) so you really need to grab every single point to make it worthwhile at all.

the only exception I can find is where you know you will be using shields, but even then starting off with 20 res will make your defenses ginormous.

Edited May 3, 2021 by thelee

[The Berathian]

1 minute ago, thelee said:

i would kindly disagree. i tend to max out RES (19-20, depending on race, though generally i pick a race that lets me get to 20 if i'm going this path) or pretty much ignore it, taking a few points out of it. this may also be a matter of difficulty, since on PotD you start off essentially at -15 defenses (enemies have an accuracy bonus) so you really need to grab every single point to make it worthwhile.

the only exception I can find is where you know you will be using shields, but even then starting off with 20 res will make your defenses ginormous.

And I would agree with you up to a point. There are instances where it is good to max it out. But when you need other stats to function, I tend to go for what I consider to be maximum yields for minimum investment. And it depends on the character build. There's a lot of factors. I was speaking in generalities. If I wanted to maximise res at the cost of other skills, I would. But, if I knew I had other ways and means to get high res, I might just shave a few points off of it I could get away with it. 

An example: I am currently messing around with a beguiler / forbidden fist. I wanted high res for tankiness. But I needed stats in other places. So I put res to 11 as a compromise, and it raises up to 16 with psychovampiric shield. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But it allows me to get the most return for the minimal investment. I know I can survive with it. I also know that I can get it higher, if necessary. 

 

[Kaylon]

If you play a blood mage the important thing is to be able to heal back fast, not to have tons of hp. If you have in your party Pallegina you will have already 3 sources of health regen (Exalted Endurance, Ancient Memory and your passive regen) and with Old Siec... you will get your health back very fast. If that's not enough, Serafen or another cipher can also cast Pain Block on you. At high level you can also extend Lay on Hands on you with Draining Wall, etc...

My advice is to put in CON just enough to reach 10 with bonuses (items, resting) just to avoid health penalties. At the beginning  just use the Amulet of Greater Health instead of wasting points in CON for a few hp. Also don't forget to buy Voidward to reduce the self damage taken. Later you can pick Tough which adds the same health as ~4CON (at max lvl you'll have 240hp which is more than enough). Personally I don't put more than 3 in CON with any class and I always max MIG/INT/PER. I also dump DEX for tanks (they get reflex from shield) and RES for damage dealers. Steady healing with high MIG will keep you alive much longer than high CON.

[Boeroer]

There are no real "sweet spots" with the attribute system. 10 or 11 or 12 hardly makes a difference.

The only attributes where maluses (from being under 10 points) have especially bad impact (compared to the other attributes) are DEX (because of how action speed and recovery are calculated) and MIG (bc. of the way dmg is calculated).

But low DEX is ok for a tank and low(ish) MIG is ok for a Bloodmage imo. Especially if you are using more CC than dmg spells - bc. this is not a solo run so let a non-tank deal the damage. 

As was said before defenses have increasing returns. So it's not too bad to raise RES - but deflection isn't your only defense to consider. Bc. of Arcane Dampener RES is important, too. Getting hit by AD is so annoying and it becomes a very common spell later on. 

I usually also drop CON on most chars but in case of a Bloodmage it's just more convenient to have a bit more health. Because with dumped CON and high MIG there is the possibility to get one-shotted when/after using Blood Sacrifice. Also with low fortitude (from low CON) it's easy getting hit by sicken/weaken - and then you'll not only lose 25% max health but also actual health. 

But amulet of greater health and Tough also do the job. And a SC Bloodmage has plenty of ability points for passives bc. Grimoires let him cast stuff even if he doesn't learn any spells. So why not take Tough. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

10 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Also increases the amount of self damage Blood Sacrifice will do. For a Bloodmage I often don't raise it above 12 or 13. 
 

 

You really don't need 19 CON. If you ask me, CON is the least important stat of all (generally speaking, there are exceptions of course). For a Bloodmage it's good to have a bit more because of Blood Sacrifice - but I wouldn't raise it to 19 in any case. Something like 15 would be enough for me. Especially because you can gain +5 from Infuse with Vital Essence as was already said.  

PER 8 is quite low. Maybe you need that much PER if you don't plan to cast a lot of offensive spells. But still: 8 would be too low for my taste.

For a Wizard "tank" I would pump RES. INT is good to have high, too. As @theleesaid: you want to shrug off Arcane Dampener. Because if not your tanking will be over quickly (without any buffs).

Well, tanking is different, I realize that. Still, I wouldn't entirely ignore the very important considerations I had when making a Turn Based nuker:

1. You buff to the teeth in Round 1 (Free Actions). I don't think you'd skip that step as a martial caster. Then you recover most/all of these lost spell slots via Blood Sacrifice (Free Actions again). You need a humongous health pool to recover like 6+ spell slots consecutively, in one round and still maintain a healthy buffer to avoid one-shots. This is kinda optional on a martial caster I guess - but why go Blood Mage if you're not gonna take advantage of its main perk?

2. When you've done this, you're more then likely to be Blooded. Hence the Human Fighting Spirit bonus would trigger. +7 Accuracy and +15% damage is nothing to sneeze at. Now whether you want to fight in close quarters in such a (somewhat risky) condition or not depends on you. But being able to fight with these bonuses and survive is certainly nice.

3. Lastly, without a doubt, the single biggest possible damage boost you can achieve is using Deltro's Cage helmet and shocking yourself with lightning (Jolting Touch will work early on, later Chain Lightning is much better - and it even gets the Deltro's lash on its bounces - that already target enemies). You do want to survive that AND those Blood Sacrifices.

 

And in reference to multiple sources of healing: they are nice for sure, but Turn Based is a lot more bursty then real time. Both the healing AND enemy damage will tend to come in batches (rather then balancing one with the other over time). Enemies usually move one after another. But you'll only get your chance to heal when  the turn of your healer comes up again. You generally need a bigger buffer (or stronger defenses/meatshields/CC) to compensate.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Ah yes. Good point. I again forgot we are talking about turn based. Please dismiss what I said about sweet spots (there might be some in turned based, for example with INT/durations) and DEX maluses then and dump DEX to 3.

And since Blood Sacrifice is a free action (iirc) high CON + Tough might be totally worth it, I agree. But I wasn't advocating for dumped CON in this case anyway so I wasn't talking total nonsense.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Ah I missed it was about TB mode... In TB I would dump RES/DEX to 3, have 15CON and wear heavy armor as a blood mage. 

[Boeroer]

Heavy armor, sure. But why would you dump RES on a Wizard who's going to use a lot of deflection buffs? 

[Andres Arigon]

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I usually also drop CON on most chars but in case of a Bloodmage it's just more convenient to have a bit more health. Because with dumped CON and high MIG there is the possibility to get one-shotted when/after using Blood Sacrifice. Also with low fortitude (from low CON) it's easy getting hit by sicken/weaken - and then you'll not only lose 25% max health but also actual health. 

I am very confused... I usually read in this forum outside from tank.. lets imagine a Support/Healer or DPS (caster) even DPS front line.. people on this forum say.. High Con is better than RES and they usually say dump RES (3) because it is a **** attribute for not tank character. However you are saying CON is not better than RES, why?

[Boeroer]

Because it does not do much for you if you have a reliable source of healing. If the healing outweighs the damage you receive then it doesn't matter whether your health pool is 200 or 300. 
And if your healing is less than the damage you receive then +100 health will just postpone the inevitable.

That why I think (generally speaking) that CON is the least important attribute. But not for a Bloodmage in turn based combat as Haplok pointed out. If you expect to receive a lot of burst damage between heals (for example via Blood Sacrifice) then a bigger health pool (via CON and/or stuff like Amulet of Greater Health and/or Tough) is good to have.

Besides that it's nice to have high fortitude (and CON contributes 2 points of fortitude per point of CON) - but I usually would first raise MIG before I think about CON. But also in this case (Bloodmage) it's something else - because Blood Sacrifice's self damage scales up with MIG, too. If you use Blood Sacrifice multiple times in a row (bc. free action in TB mode) with high MIG and low CON you will kill yourself - which is not that much fun.  

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[Andres Arigon]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Because it does not do much for you if you have a reliable source of healing. If the healing outweighs the damage you receive then it doesn't matter whether your health pool is 200 or 300. 
And if your healing is less than the damage you receive then +100 health will just postpone the inevitable.

That why I think (generally speaking) that CON is the least important attribute. But not for a Bloodmage in turn based combat as Haplok pointed out. If you expect to receive a lot of burst damage between heals (for example via Blood Sacrifice) then a bigger health pool (via CON and/or stuff like Amulet of Greater Health and/or Tough) is good to have.

Besides that it's nice to have high fortitude (and CON contributes 2 points of fortitude per point of CON) - but I usually would first raise MIG before I think about CON. But also in this case (Bloodmage) it's something else - because Blood Sacrifice's self damage scales up with MIG, too. If you use Blood Sacrifice multiple times in a row (bc. free action in TB mode) with high MIG and low CON you will kill yourself - which is not that much fun.  

Just using your example which one is very clear!

Should I follow the same idea with a range caster? I am not expecting to get any hit... however, when I receive it. It is better to have bigger chance (RES) to avoid it instead a big HP pool with less chance to avoid it? I am not saying to drop CON to 3 but try to find a balance between RES / CON with a little more points in RES

Your previous example was very clear

Edited May 4, 2021 by Andres Arigon

[Helz]

1 hour ago, Andres Arigon said:

Should I follow the same idea with a range caster? I am not expecting to get any hit... however, when I receive it. It is better to have bigger chance (RES) to avoid it instead a big HP pool with less chance to avoid it? I am not saying to drop CON to 3 but try to find a balance between RES / CON with a little more points in RES

It would be boring if there was a perfect answer. CON is the stat I try to get "just good enough". I favor RES because of the reduced duration on negative effects. How often do I find myself barely outlasting some nasty ailment that completely disables the character? Frequently. I don't know how duration is handled in TB mode though.

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, Andres Arigon said:

Just using your example which one is very clear!

Should I follow the same idea with a range caster? I am not expecting to get any hit... however, when I receive it. It is better to have bigger chance (RES) to avoid it instead a big HP pool with less chance to avoid it? I am not saying to drop CON to 3 but try to find a balance between RES / CON with a little more points in RES

Your previous example was very clear

For a backline caster or shooter I will drop CON and RES to 3 most of the time (there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumb). It's a bit more challenging of course once you get attacked - but I like that extra thrill.  

But in turn based I would also dump DEX to 3 most of times (judging by what I hear about TB mode). So that leaves room for a little bit more RES or CON. I guess I would raise both a bit then, but doesn't really matter that much I guess. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Boeroer

[Andres Arigon]

18 hours ago, Boeroer said:

For a backline caster or shooter I will drop CON and RES to 3 most of the time (there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumb). It's a bit more challenging of course once you get attacked - but I like that extra thrill.  

But in turn based I would also dump DEX to 3 most of times (judging by what I hear about TB mode). So that leaves room for a little bit more RES or CON. I guess I would raise both a bit then, but doesn't really matter that much I guess. 

Yeah DEX sucks! in TB I only like to have some points in DEX in my tank to try to be the first but apart from that DEX is baaaad.. I am using the Dex point in CON and RES with some extra point in res even in range/shooter to avoid hits = less healing needed

[Haplok]

52 minutes ago, Andres Arigon said:

Yeah DEX sucks! in TB I only like to have some points in DEX in my tank to try to be the first but apart from that DEX is baaaad.. I am using the Dex point in CON and RES with some extra point in res even in range/shooter to avoid hits = less healing needed

That's... quite unnecessary IMO. Move your tank first, maybe move with party stealthed - unstealth tank first. Maybe charge forward with Escape or something. He'll gather the attention of all enemies and then the rest of the party can unstealth and act.

[Andres Arigon]

1 hour ago, Haplok said:

That's... quite unnecessary IMO. Move your tank first, maybe move with party stealthed - unstealth tank first. Maybe charge forward with Escape or something. He'll gather the attention of all enemies and then the rest of the party can unstealth and act.

What you say makes sense. The only reason why I really want to go first is because as Bloodmage if I don't have my buff on... 4 hits could kill me before my turn. It is my only reason why just to have better initiative