Politics... US election edition (2020 almost over, read all about it!)

[BruceVC]

Is anyone concerned  that for many of the people who participated in the violence they genuinely believed that they were doing the right thing  and that the the 2020 election " had been stolen " and this meant that the entire foundation of what defines the USA was in jeopardy ?

I was watching this on Sky and it made me pause and consider what is the  difference between a real coup, because this wasnt  a real coup, and this group who felt they were actually protecting the integrity of Democracy? I am not expecting anyone to feel sorry for them because they made choices and as with choices in life there always are consequence 

But it goes back the post I made earlier about " perception on the ground " and how would any country ensure this type of thing doesn't occur again 

Its also important to separate people in this protest carrying Confederate Flags who are normally  linked to right wing groups and protestor who are not racist but felt they were defending the USA ?

I am just wondering if anyone is prepared, and I would  understand if people aren't interested, in looking at them in less critical way than what we saw in Charlottesville  which had many real right wings groups?

So does this type of real ignorance matter to their actions and how you feel ?

 

 

[Elerond]

People who try to commit coups or otherwise cease power usually think they are doing right thing.

Even people who commit genocides often think they are right side of history, which is why there is often plenty of evidence of their crimes as they don't think what they are doing is a crime, but betterment of their nation.

Ignorance and intentions aren't valid defense for bad actions and I don't think that anybody should accept them as valid justifications 

[BruceVC]

46 minutes ago, Elerond said:

People who try to commit coups or otherwise cease power usually think they are doing right thing.

Even people who commit genocides often think they are right side of history, which is why there is often plenty of evidence of their crimes as they don't think what they are doing is a crime, but betterment of their nation.

Ignorance and intentions aren't valid defense for bad actions and I don't think that anybody should accept them as valid justifications 

Yes I agree with you  around peoples motives in a normal  coup but the definition of a coup is where a group seizes power in country and takes over running that country. Like a military coup

That wasnt what this was about as far as I can gather, the group  that marched to the Capitol wanted to support Trump and raise attention to how the election had been " stolen " 

I would be very surprised if they honestly believed they would be running the country somehow?

So I am not saying they shouldn't be judged and prosecuted in certain cases. I am saying to think they wanted to " take over the country " doesnt seem accurate?

Its just  been framed like that on some news channels that this was a coup ? 

 

[rjshae]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Is anyone concerned  that for many of the people who participated in the violence they genuinely believed that they were doing the right thing  and that the the 2020 election " had been stolen " and this meant that the entire foundation of what defines the USA was in jeopardy ?

I was watching this on Sky and it made me pause and consider what is the  difference between a real coup, because this wasnt  a real coup, and this group who felt they were actually protecting the integrity of Democracy? I am not expecting anyone to feel sorry for them because they made choices and as with choices in life there always are consequence 

My concern is with the precedent it sets, in combination with the international image it projects. With more effort and determination they clearly could have succeeded. Next time we may not be so lucky. I think an example needs to be made of the leaders to serve as a deterrent.

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, rjshae said:

My concern is with the precedent it sets, in combination with the international image it projects. With more effort and determination they clearly could have succeeded. Next time we may not be so lucky. I think an example needs to be made of the leaders to serve as a deterrent.

Thanks for responding because I was hoping American members would comment as this occurred in the USA

Firstly it did create a bad image throughout the world and I have been following global commentary most of today. But the good news is the countries that matter basically realize this is about the Trump presidency and most world leaders accepted years ago that Trump was an unorthodox and very different president to other US presidents so this violence will be seen as part of the end of the Trump circus

I always get annoyed when the  leaders of countries like Venezuela and Turkey jump on the bandwagon and claim " this was an attack on the principles of Democracy " ....how would they know what a Democracy is?

But when you say they could have succeed can you explain what you mean by that ? What could they have succeeded in doing as people have mentioned something similar but I am not sure what the protestors clear objective was ?

[rjshae]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But when you say they could have succeed can you explain what you mean by that ? What could they have succeeded in doing as people have mentioned something similar but I am not sure what the protestors clear objective was ?

Well I assume they were trying to disrupt the proceedings. But then it's an army of idiots overdosing on testosterone so they clearly didn't think it through very well.

What they potentially could have done is take congress-people hostage, prevent a peaceful transfer of power, and justify Trump declaring martial law. &c.

[Gromnir]

22 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

That wasnt what this was about as far as I can gather, the group  that marched to the Capitol wanted to support Trump and raise attention to how the election had been " stolen " 

 

 

you are making a similar mistake as vol were doing not so long ago. applying motives to a mob or any large and disorganized group is a mistake. point to an individual as if their actions and words is shared by all in the group is not reasonable.

the group which marched on the capitol had diverse goals and motivations. the proud boys wearing their 6mwe t-shirts didn't necessarily have the same motives as the pregnant woman who were escorted down the steps o' the capitol after the dc police finally showed up to reestablish order. 

https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/who-are-the-djs-promoters-playing-parties-during-covid-19/

can find any number o' individual examples based on media coverage or social media posts from the protesters which reveal that individuals involved in the events yesterday were serious 'bout "taking back" their government and they were clear willing to do so by force. 

were more than a few hard working and patriotic americans who believed they were following trump to the capitol and were just showing their support for their President as they remained peaceful outside the capitol building. 

qanon, white nationalists, proud boys, ted cruz. were a whole lot o' bad actors involved in yesterday's events.

four years o' enabling the bad actors and trump made yesterday possible even if it didn't make it inevitable.

perception on the ground is a myth. excuse.

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, rjshae said:

Well I assume they were trying to disrupt the proceedings. But then it's an army of idiots overdosing on testosterone so they clearly didn't think it through very well.

What they potentially could have done is take congress-people hostage, prevent a peaceful transfer of power, and justify Trump declaring martial law. &c.

Yes, that was the risk I also think could have happened. They could have killed members of the senate or been responsible for any other violent attack 

But you also raising my main view of the overall strategy  of this group, they didn't think much through and as others mentioned the storming of the Capital was spontaneous but lacked any real long term planning or thought 

 

[Gromnir]

does vegas have a line on how long it takes before trump complete undermine his recent released taped video statement by tweeting something idiotic?

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

you are making a similar mistake as vol were doing not so long ago. applying motives to a mob or any large and disorganized group is a mistake. point to an individual as if their actions and words is shared by all in the group is not reasonable.

the group which marched on the capitol had diverse goals and motivations. the proud boys wearing their 6mwe t-shirts didn't necessarily have the same motives as the pregnant woman who were escorted down the steps o' the capitol after the dc police finally showed up to reestablish order. 

https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/who-are-the-djs-promoters-playing-parties-during-covid-19/

can find any number o' individual examples based on media coverage or social media posts from the protesters which reveal that individuals involved in the events yesterday were serious 'bout "taking back" their government and they were clear willing to do so by force. 

were more than a few hard working and patriotic americans who believed they were following trump to the capitol and were just showing their support for their President as they remained peaceful outside the capitol building. 

qanon, white nationalists, proud boys, ted cruz. were a whole lot o' bad actors involved in yesterday's events.

four years o' enabling the bad actors and trump made yesterday possible even if it didn't make it inevitable.

perception on the ground is a myth. excuse.

HA! Good Fun!

You are making valid points and the protestors were a diverse group with different motives on some things but united behind the spurious allegation that " elections had been stolen " 

But they were not quite the same as the various right wing groups that  descended on Charlottesville even  though some right wing elements were involved 

But going back to there so called known objective of " taking back the election " how could this violence have achieved that? They might have delayed the acceptance of Biden as president but their actions actually made things worse and ended Trumps presidency on a worse note than I   thought possible because  Trumps refusal to accept legitimate defeat I assumed was how his legacy would be remembered...this just added a new low 

The " perception on the ground " is a metaphor for people justifying certain  extreme  actions in some cases from both the left and right. It is real in the sense I can  give you examples and you can comment but lets have that debate later because its been an intense few days and I would rather raise it  later 

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

 

But going back to there so called known objective of " taking back the election " how could this violence have achieved that?

you are asking for a reasonable answer from people who willing joined a mob? the stolen election narrative ain't reasonable, but more than 100 million americans believe such stoopid. georgia handcounts complete undermine the dominion machine conspiracy, but how many people insist on perpetuating such nonsense? seth rich?

reasonable is not relevant if you are questioning motives.

@Guard Dog and others has discussed the lost cause mentality and the motivations o' the confederacy is endless debated when the civil war is discussed. nathan bedford forrest and james longstreet both fought for the confederacy, but their motivations were extreme different. The Confederacy were wrong, and slavery were/is integral and unavoidable linked to perpetuation o' the lost cause myth, but try and distill the perception on the ground o' the confederacy is impossible. a soldier from virginia and a plantation owner from south carolina and James Longstreet might have been equal devoted to the confederate cause, but their reasons for doing so woulda' been different and even impossible to align.

those involved in the january 6 mob were all wrong, but they were wrong unique. some kinda generalized perception on the ground is an unnecessary rabbit hole even if it will be debated endless.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[rjshae]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

But you also raising my main view of the overall strategy  of this group, they didn't think much through and as others mentioned the storming of the Capital was spontaneous but lacked any real long term planning or thought 

I suspect they more or less rely on their genius overlord to do the thinking. But I'm not really sure that he has thought this through either; he just relies to much on lies and sewing chaos to get his way.

[Gromnir]

the curious behavior o' more than a few o' the capitol police should be investigated. am not a fan o' social media and we don't understand the selfie reflex, but the mob's desire for recognition, resulting in widespread filming and photographing o' l00ters and police by journalists as well as mob participants, has resulted in considerable video which reveals considerable odd police action.

HA! Good Fun!

[Chairchucker]

Hey there America

 

What are you doing

[HoonDing]

9 hours ago, Elerond said:

Kevin Sorbo gives excellent summary what actually happened

 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Hey there America

 

What are you doing

HA! Good Fun!

[Darkpriest]

Ok, so I hear one of Police  Officers died? 

Anyone knows the details? 

That's absolutely something that should not ever be happening as a part of a protest... 

[Darkpriest]

Btw, calling those people terrorists by Biden and not calling the protesters, while calling all the rioting and looting mobs 'peaceful protesters' is a show of double standards. This will make people even more divided. 

Instead of calling these people misguided and abandoned, who need to be guided and ubited with, he puts even more of a negative emotions into an already complicated situation. 

[Lexx]

I have a hard time seeing this as an attempted coup ... because if that was, then this must have been the dumbest attempt at a coup ever. Like, man, you gotta seize media centers and military bases and other important infrastructure ... trying to hold capitol hill is figuratively just a hill to die on. This is pure, lazy dumbness.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Lexx

[Deadly_Nightshade]

52 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Anyone knows the details? 

According to various reports he was assaulted by the mob, including being struck in the head with a fire extinguisher, and died of his injuries after being put on intensive life-support.

In other words, he was murdered.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Guard Dog]

15 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I have a hard time seeing this as an attempted coup ... because if that was, then this must have been the dumbest attempt at a coup ever. Like, man, you gotta size media centers and military bases and other important infrastructure ... trying to hold capitol hill is figuratively just a hill to die on. This is pure, lazy dumbness.

You are correct. Calling this a coup is dressing it up as something it wasn't. It was a bunch of people whipped into a frenzy and then directed at a target. Most of them will end up getting arrested and be made to suffer on kind of justice or another. Unfortunately the guy that lit the dynamite and threw it is going to get away with it. Trump REALLY should have been removed over this. 

[Guard Dog]

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

does vegas have a line on how long it takes before trump complete undermine his recent released taped video statement by tweeting something idiotic?

HA! Good Fun!

Within 12 hours 4.00

Within 18 hours 2.5

Within 24 hours 0.09

Within 36 hours 0.000000000000000000000001

Unless he's kicked of Twitter, then all lines are closed!

 

[Gromnir]

55 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Btw, calling those people terrorists by Biden and not calling the protesters, while calling all the rioting and looting mobs 'peaceful protesters' is a show of double standards. This will make people even more divided. 

 

it will divide but is based largely on right-wing imagination.

show us where biden called vandals, looters, arsonists and folks who assaulted and killed a police officer with a fire extinguisher peaceful protesters. we will wait while you look.

...

nothing?

biden condemned the criminals but pointed out that Most o' the protesters were peaceful and should not all be condemned for the actions of a select few.

converse, there were literal thousands o' people who illegal trespassed onto capitol property and many who destroyed property and attacked police. if all the trumpers had stopped at the barricades and shouted "stop the steal," then they woulda' been able to claim to be peaceful protesters. at the very least, the thousands who broke the law should face the same condemnation as the vandals and looters received from biden during the summer protests, no?

 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence/fact-check-joe-biden-has-condemned-violent-protests-in-the-last-three-months-idUSKBN25V2O1

am knowing reuters ain't zerohedge, but...

so, am calling bull.

were there some lefties saying the violence and criminality during the summer protests were justified? yup. bad on them. we don't agree even if we sympathize with the anger and rage. however, biden and many others consistent condemned violence and criminality whenever it occurred.

bs

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

Looking past Jan 20th, during the Trump years the Democrats found a VERY uncharacteristic respect for Federalism.  Now that they will have complete control over the Executive and Legislature you can bet THAT goes out the window!

[Gromnir]

15 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

You are correct. Calling this a coup is dressing it up as something it wasn't. It was a bunch of people whipped into a frenzy and then directed at a target. Most of them will end up getting arrested and be made to suffer on kind of justice or another. Unfortunately the guy that lit the dynamite and threw it is going to get away with it. Trump REALLY should have been removed over this. 

more than a few o' the protesters thought they were participating in a coup. 

more than a few thought they were peaceful protesters exercising their first amendment rights.

again, it were a disorganized mob and attempting to ascribe some kinda motivation or plan to the entirety is pointless.

It’s the People’s House, but the terrorists behaved as if only they should have the keys to the Capitol. One man sat in Nancy Pelosi’s office, his feet contemptuously propped up on her atop the desk and a smile on his face. Others charged at a member of law enforcement, left alone and unable to handle the mob’s surge. We saw them literally on the walls, hanging from a ledge in the Senate chambers or outside, swinging on the scaffold. Others took selfies and souvenir photographs, as if the mob’s intrusion were merely some Capitol tour gone awry. A door featured the newly scrawled threat: “Murder the Media.” Others were seen with guns, and zip ties, apparently prepared to take hostages. Washington, D.C., police found explosives near the building. A man stood where Vice President Mike Pence typically sits in the Senate chamber, taking it upon himself to declare that Donald Trump had, indeed, won an election he lost. The entire scene was a violation in the purest sense, and on top of all that, the lack of protective face coverings amid the pandemic betrayed both a lack of sense and shame.

yeah, more than a few o' the qanon folks with their Storm prophecy thought The Day had finally arrived. more than one trump supporting Congressman boasted that January 6 would be a 1776 moment for the maga movement...

whatever

were a mob.

HA! Good Fun!