Coronavirus Goes Fourth

[Skarpen]

49 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Nearly nothing what Skarpen said is correct.

 

42 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But its clear you dont understand how the virus spreads. Its pointless engaging with anyone on a topic when they dont understand even the basics about that topic. When you spend some time understanding the nature  of the virus I will engage with you 

Source at the end, I bolded all the things I stated above you claim is wrong:

COVID-19 is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which spreads between people, mainly when an infected person is in close contact with another person.

The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe heavily. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols’.

Other people can catch COVID-19 when the virus gets into their mouth, nose or eyes, which is more likely to happen when people are in direct or close contact (less than 1 metre apart) with an infected person.

Current evidence suggests that the main way the virus spreads is by respiratory droplets among people who are in close contact with each other.

Aerosol transmission can occur in specific settings, particularly in indoor, crowded and inadequately ventilated spaces, where infected person(s) spend long periods of time with others, such as restaurants, choir practices, fitness classes, nightclubs, offices and/or places of worship. More studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission is occurring outside of medical facilities where specific medical procedures, called aerosol generating procedures, are conducted.

The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.

Find out more about the science about how the SARS-CoV-2 virus infects the body and how our body’s immune system reacts by watching or reading this interview with WHO’s technical lead for COVID-19, Dr Maria Van Kerkhove.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): How is it transmitted? (who.int)

So please point out where any of my above statements were wrong. The truth is you cannot, instead you preach some silly idea that Christmas party among family where no one is infected somehow magically spreads virus. 

[Boeroer]

And one about masks (and why they work):

 

[Boeroer]

8 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

So please point out where any of my above statements were wrong. The truth is you cannot, instead you preach some silly idea that Christmas party among family where no one is infected somehow magically spreads virus. 

It says so in the source you linked:

"The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe heavily. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols’.

Other people can catch COVID-19 when the virus gets into their mouth, nose or eyes, which is more likely to happen when people are in direct or close contact (less than 1 metre apart) with an infected person.

Current evidence suggests that the main way the virus spreads is by respiratory droplets among people who are in close contact with each other.

Aerosol transmission can occur in specific settings, particularly in indoor, crowded and inadequately ventilated spaces, where infected person(s) spend long periods of time with others, such as restaurants, choir practices, fitness classes, nightclubs, offices and/or places of worship. More studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission is occurring outside of medical facilities where specific medical procedures, called aerosol generating procedures, are conducted."

"To limit the risks of getting COVID-19 follow these basic precautions:

Follow local guidance. Check to see what national, regional and local authorities are advising so you have the most relevant information for where you are.
Stay at least 1 metre away from others, even if they don’t appear to be sick.
Wear a mask, especially when you can’t physically distance.
Read our Masks and COVID-19 Q&A and watch our videos on how to wear and make masks."

Did you even read that?

Turned out I could prove you wrong. Easily.

Next: Skarpen saying that Christmas party at home isn't the same as spending long periods of time with others idoor...

After that: Skarpen saying that when they are all healthy they can't spread the virus at the Christmas party. Too bad that 50% of spreaders show no symtoms and appear healthy.


 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Boeroer

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

Infections traced to public transportation that isn't airplane are zero.

Despite having very few cases overall we've had a few here where the only link is public transport (buses specifically). Far more from other causes like being family members or workmates, but those are also a lot easier to contain.

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

China doesn't have a good vaccine yet afaik and they have a lot of people to vaccinate. No surprise the virus might cause local outbreaks. But I believe those will not explode like they do in Europe or the US. 

China's vaccine is fine, at least for efficiency. The Brazil study is being- probably deliberately- misinterpreted, often by those who should know better*. The issue is similar to one there was a brief discussion about a few pages ago about what the efficacy of a vaccine means, practically, and the difference between SARS-CoV2 and Covid19. Most vaccines aren't of the smallpox type eradication sort.

Despite everyone talking about 'immunity' as a shorthand that's not what they're talking about when it comes to how well the vaccine works. In part because that isn't really how the human immune system works. The- pretty much fake news- headlines about China's vaccine having a ~50% effectiveness are an example. It's 50% effective, if you include asymptomatic and very mild infections. Sounds kind of bad, however, it's 100% effective against severe covid19. You can still be infected by SARS-CoV2 post vaccination, but you won't get severe covid19 from it, and your chances of getting covid19 at all are reduced ~80%. It's reduced the chances of getting infected, and the effects of the infection.

To illustrate the point, the highly effective Pfizer vaccine's efficacy drops precipitously if you do the analysis the same way that was done to the sinapharm one, ie include everyone reporting mild symptoms and those with positive PCR but no symptoms. Indeed, it actually has a worse efficiency than sinapharm in that case. It's irrelevant in both cases, because an infection that causes minimal harm might as well not exist. 'Covid19' defines a set of symptoms caused by the SC2 virus, severe enough to kill. If you don't/ didn't have the symptoms you don't have the disease, what you have is another coronavirus contributing to the mix of various viruses that causes the 'common cold'.

*I made fun previous of the BBC for their utterly partisan coverage of Sputnik vs AZOxford compared to how the results turned out and they're now repeating the 50% effective claim acritically as well. Useless coverage is part of the reason we end up with antivaxxers, and by and large the coverage has been a masterclass in Western Exceptionalism instead- indeed, as mentioned yesterday, the Chinese vaccine being indemnified is used to build suspicion without mentioning the context that the western vaccines are indemnified in the same way too.

[Boeroer]

I believe it's very difficult to track an infection back to public transportation - while it's easier to track it back to work, home, restaurant (especially if you have to register like in Germany so an infection can get backtracked)? So there might be a lot of infections coming from public transport - we just wouldn't know?

Edited January 14, 2021 by Boeroer

[Zoraptor]

We have had very few cases which makes finding a link relatively easy, and for a couple the only link to an infected person was a bus trip both took (example case, press report). IIRC in that case they weren't even on the bus at the same time, but about ten minutes apart which is why it took more time to find.

Quote

She [Ardern] said the case of a worker at St Lukes mall took a while to link to the cluster before the ARPHS was able to discover a connection through bus travel.

 

[Elerond]

38 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I believe it's very difficult to track an infection back to public transportation - while it's easier to track it back to work, home, restaurant (especially if you have to register like in Germany so an infection can get backtracked)? So there might be a lot of infections coming from public transport - we just wouldn't know?

It is harder, but in case Finland, 50% of population has downloaded corona tracking application to their phones, which informs when person has been in same space with someone who has been tested positive. Which has helped to track possible places of infection

Edited January 14, 2021 by Elerond

[Boeroer]

Merkel's now considering to propose a shutdown of public transport as well because the curve is still not flattening - like... at all.  

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Did you even read that?

Turned out I could prove you wrong. Easily.

Next: Skarpen saying that Christmas party at home isn't the same as spending long periods of time with others idoor...

After that: Skarpen saying that when they are all healthy they can't spread the virus at the Christmas party. Too bad that 50% of spreaders show no symtoms and appear healthy.

Which part of what you wrote is contradicting anything I wrote? Maybe you should ask yourself if you read this?

Why do you ommit very important words from the definitions, and my statement? 

First of all it says: spending long periods of time with INFECTED others idoor...

Second: I wrote TESTED family members. 

[Boeroer]

Long periods of time: Christmas parties aren't long at your place it seems. Shorter than eating at a restaurant maybe? Also your party location must be well ventilated.... during winter.

Determining if somebody is infected or not is difficult since 50% of infections will come without symptoms. If party guests didn't all get tested you can never be sure that there isn't a superspreader among them. And even then there's room for error. No test is 100% precise. You wrote about tested family members, cool - as if every party guest on Christmas did do a test... You want to claim everybody did that and thus Christmas parties are no problem at all?  Sure, if everybody is healthy then nobody will get sick and we won't have to stop parties and can burn our masks! Nice prerequisite in a pandemic... very realistic.

If weddings, mass and birthday parties are spreading events (and they are) then Christmas parties are as well:

Quote

The same month a 61-year-old woman, known as "Patient 31", attended several church services of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus in the South Korean city of Daegu. The Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has since linked more than 5,000 infections to Shincheonji. More recently the virus managed to infiltrate the White House despite a host of measures to keep it out. Political gatherings, business conferences and sports tournaments have all acted as infection incubators, but these high profile events could just be the tip of the iceberg.

You also wrote Covid-19 only transmits via droplets that fall down:

Skarpen said:

 A droplet of water is not lighter than air. They will drop. A very small droplet will fall slower, but it is falling. And we all know falling isn't flying, if you don't go watch Toy Story.

But Covid not only transmits via droplets but also transmits via aerosol (which you even quoted after claiming that Toy Story nonsense above) :

Quote

An aerosol is defined as a

suspension system of solid or liquid particles in a gas. An aerosol includes both the particles and the suspending gas, which is usually air.

Check the definition of "suspension".

You also suggested that wearing masks ist not helpful. Which is not true either as you can read on the very site you linked. 

What you did was read some stuff on the WHO page and then interpret it in a biased way to support your narrative - when it in fact it does not. 


 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Boeroer
typos

[ShadySands]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Hurlshot IS Q.

Now I'll picture this every time I read his posts

[Hurlshort]

Wait, so Skarpie's entire family went and get tested before holidaying together? That's actually pretty awesome, you guys are very responsible.

I prefered to just avoid my family. But that isn't just about the virus.

[Azdeus]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

Wait, so Skarpie's entire family went and get tested before holidaying together? That's actually pretty awesome, you guys are very responsible.

I prefered to just avoid my family. But that isn't just about the virus.

Speaking of

https://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/swedes-have-been-deceived-with-false-corona-documents-1.39822317

There's a clinic that offered COVID tests, never sent anything to the lab, but gave certificates that they were tested and free of the virus.

[Hurlshort]

Hospitals in Santa Clara County are currently at zero capacity.

[Azdeus]

Also, as an aside, yesterday I was starving so I had to go to the vending machine at work which is in the lunchroom, during lunch time. Turns out my workplace has taken zero effort to actually separate people during lunchtime. All ~100 or so people went to eat dinner at the same time, and sat next to eachother, shoulder to shoulder.

I wonder why gothenburg has serious issues with spread of the disease?

 

Also, we passed 10000 dead this week I think it was. Good stuff...

Edited January 15, 2021 by Azdeus

[Skarpen]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Determining if somebody is infected or not is difficult since 50% of infections will come without symptoms. If party guests didn't all get tested you can never be sure that there isn't a superspreader among them. And even then there's room for error. No test is 100% precise. You wrote about tested family members, cool - as if every party guest on Christmas did do a test... You want to claim everybody did that and thus Christmas parties are no problem at all?  Sure, if everybody is healthy then nobody will get sick and we won't have to stop parties and can burn our masks! Nice prerequisite in a pandemic... very realistic.

I don't know about where you are from but it wasn't a problem to get tested in December in Poland. It was a problem early this year but now quite ok.

And I don't get your point about ventilation during winter. Weather was fine. We didn't get snow and sustainable below zero till New Year, so Christmas was fine.

Read again what exactly I wrote about masks. Carefully and with understanding.

Well church, weddings and birthday parties are crowded and there bound to be some strangers. Quite like mass transport that I did criticize. And there is little way of coordinating for example that all attendies get a test.

5 hours ago, Azdeus said:

Speaking of

https://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/swedes-have-been-deceived-with-false-corona-documents-1.39822317

There's a clinic that offered COVID tests, never sent anything to the lab, but gave certificates that they were tested and free of the virus.

In Poland I doubt this could happen.

[Boeroer]

54 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

I don't know [...]

And I don't get your point [...]

Exactly!

[Skarpen]

32 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Exactly!

I'm accepting your defeat.

[Darkpriest]

I see that there is some discussion about the spreading. 

 

The goal of the mask is not really to prevent you being infected (it certainly helps though) , but you infecting others. 

 

As for droplets etc. Do you know the size of the virus? What comprise the vapor coming out of your mouth? Why you think that the more moisty, moderate temp months have higher rates than sunny, hot and dry months? 

Have you experienced ever the distance from which you can sense significantly the 'taste' and 'smell' of someone elses smoke fume exhale? 

 

Also a lot of dumbasses wear masks incorrectly, leaving half the mouth and whole nose exposed, so in this case yes, masks will be ineffective. 

[Gorth]

4 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

The goal of the mask is not really to prevent you being infected (it certainly helps though) , but you infecting others.

You know that. I know that. I guess most people with half a brain know that. If you're up for a shocking experience, try lurking a bit on the Fox News website and read the commentary from the "permanent residents" there. Besides being convinced that masks are a plot of the deep state and something a bunch of pedophile anti-christs want's to force upon you to make everyone looks the same to make the introduction of communism easier.... the troglodytes have their mind set in stone that the masks were supposed to be for the wearers protection and therefor doesn't work (which is sort of correct without context)

 

I suspect you might as well speak ancient Babylonian if trying to explain they should do something for *other* peoples benefit. A very self centered demographic. Maybe tell them you'll take their guns away if they don't wear a mask?

[Zoraptor]

It's not a totally stupid misconception. Good quality masks (N95/ FFP2) do protect the wearer, they're just not what the public is wearing. But back when everyone was talking about PPE being in short supply it would have been very easy to pick up the belief that all face masks were intended to protect the wearer, and the press in general has often been... casual when it comes to being accurate about details and differences.

 

[Skarpen]

18 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I see that there is some discussion about the spreading. 

The goal of the mask is not really to prevent you being infected (it certainly helps though) , but you infecting others. 

As for droplets etc. Do you know the size of the virus? What comprise the vapor coming out of your mouth? Why you think that the more moisty, moderate temp months have higher rates than sunny, hot and dry months? 

Have you experienced ever the distance from which you can sense significantly the 'taste' and 'smell' of someone elses smoke fume exhale? 

Also a lot of dumbasses wear masks incorrectly, leaving half the mouth and whole nose exposed, so in this case yes, masks will be ineffective. 

Yes, it's true. But even excluding the "dumbasses" that wear masks as a chin diaper, people who wear it on their mouth and nose also do it incorrectly. As I mentioned above they will make mistakes like touching it with bare hands, wearing it to long etc. Making it a health hazard on your face more than anything. Because average people are not medical professionals and sudden introduction of masks to the general population without thorough information campaign wasn't the best idea. For example in Poland at the beginning months of this "pandemic" minister of health said on television that masks do not work and he does not know why people wear them. Of course couple of weeks later masks became mandatory. So most people wear them not for health reasons but rather to avoid the penalty for not having them. 

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

It's not a totally stupid misconception. Good quality masks (N95/ FFP2) do protect the wearer, they're just not what the public is wearing. But back when everyone was talking about PPE being in short supply it would have been very easy to pick up the belief that all face masks were intended to protect the wearer, and the press in general has often been... casual when it comes to being accurate about details and differences.

 

Yes but the reason we wear masks has been well known and accepted by most people for 8 months at least 

We know unless you have the N95 masks or other effective PPE  the standard masks that 98 % of us wear dont stop exposure from the virus if you walk, for example, into  a confined area like a lift where the virus molecules are building up. Your  mask wont really stop you potentially getting the virus 

So we wear masks to stop and or reduce the spread. Thats it, we dont wear normal masks to protect us as they cannot 

I am always surprised we still have this debate in our respective counties  and forums like this 

[BruceVC]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/dr-fauci-coronavirus-video-slomo-youtube-masks-gavin-free-particles-b1257983.html

 

Guys here is one of the best videos I have seen that  demonstrates how the virus molecules spread and how masks help prevent that

Please share this with friends and family who like Skarpen are confused or dismiss how the virus spreads and the purpose of masks. Its very revealing when you see  certain molecules float and some fall to the floor 

 

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

We know unless you have the N95 masks or other effective PPE  the standard masks that 98 % of us wear dont stop exposure from the virus if you walk, for example, into  a confined area like a lift where the virus molecules are building up. Your  mask wont really stop you potentially getting the virus 

You use elevators with other people inside during pandemic? You are irresponsible.