Coronavirus Goes Fourth

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, rjshae said:

LA County Paramedics Told Not To Transport Some Patients With Low Chance Of Survival

Looks like they are going to rely on paramedics to do an early triage to take the load off the Doctors. Man that job is going to suck.

I was watching this on CNN, what a terrible choice to  make for anyone 

But the reality of the virus spread  and the limited resources in  all countries means these type of truly invidious decisions have to be made....its quite depressing 

[Raithe]

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/south-africa/2021-01-04-anc-ethekwini-councillor-says-5g-towers-spread-covid-19-and-whites-have-vaccine/

Here is an example of what we deal with in SA around fake news and virus denialists 

The good news this is unusual in how ignorant and racist the councilor is  .....I get annoyed by these comments from people in government because we pay there salaries and how can he be trusted to do his job with this type of ignorance ?

But its rare and is not the official view of the our government 

 

[Azdeus]

12 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/south-africa/2021-01-04-anc-ethekwini-councillor-says-5g-towers-spread-covid-19-and-whites-have-vaccine/

Here is an example of what we deal with in SA around fake news and virus denialists 

The good news this is unusual in how ignorant and racist the councilor is  .....I get annoyed by these comments from people in government because we pay there salaries and how can he be trusted to do his job with this type of ignorance ?

But its rare and is not the official view of the our government 

 

Garlic mate.

Garlic against HIV. And beetroot. From your former minister of health.

So, rare? Heh, not really.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Azdeus said:

Garlic mate.

Garlic against HIV. And beetroot. From your former minister of health.

So, rare? Heh, not really. 

I am impressed you actually remember that....it was a long time ago and became very controversial. We have a had a few of those moments  in our history but SA is a new Democracy so sometimes we make mistakes ......this was one of them but normally people outside of SA dont remember it or raise it 

So I'm impressed, also you being from Sweden this point  matters but maybe your dads generation would be aware of this but Sweden and other Nordic countries ,mostly during the Cold War,  have always supported movements that were fighting for Democracy and true freedom on the African continent. And the Nordic countries were and still are very consistent in this type of funding and support for a better world.....except that meant if you a white person living under Apartheid Sweden was seen to  be funding the " Communist enemy " ....I was young but remember some of the misplaced anger from some of my  older family members with Sweden's supporting " terrorist  groups " 

But they were confused as Sweden wasn't supporting terrorist groups because the ANC was fighting the illegitimate system of Apartheid that accused the ANC of being a terrorist group

Some of my family members had been fighting Communism for years , but real Communism, as  they went to the Angola Border  and some came from the Rhodesian war and there was years of battles with communist trained groups, plus the Cubans had  a large military presence in several countries and a Soviet presence in Angola. But the ANC wasn't really Communist, they were just trained by them in some techniques but  compared to Apartheid and its immoral reality Communism would have seemed better 

But Sweden wasn't the problem, it wasn't promoting any true  Communist or Socialist. It was always supporting the true values of any sustainable  Democracy 

But how come you remember  that statement?

 

 

 

 

[Azdeus]

34 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I am impressed you actually remember that....it was a long time ago and became very controversial. We have a had a few of those moments  in our history but SA is a new Democracy so sometimes we make mistakes ......this was one of them but normally people outside of SA dont remember it or raise it 

So I'm impressed, also you being from Sweden this point  matters but maybe your dads generation would be aware of this but Sweden and other Nordic countries ,mostly during the Cold War,  have always supported movements that were fighting for Democracy and true freedom on the African continent. And the Nordic countries were and still are very consistent in this type of funding and support for a better world.....except that meant if you a white person living under Apartheid Sweden was seen to  be funding the " Communist enemy " ....I was young but remember some of the misplaced anger from some of my  older family members with Sweden's supporting " terrorist  groups " 

But they were confused as Sweden wasn't supporting terrorist groups because the ANC was fighting the illegitimate system of Apartheid that accused the ANC of being a terrorist group

Some of my family members had been fighting Communism for years , but real Communism, as  they went to the Angola Border  and some came from the Rhodesian war and there was years of battles with communist trained groups, plus the Cubans had  a large military presence in several countries and a Soviet presence in Angola. But the ANC wasn't really Communist, they were just trained by them in some techniques but  compared to Apartheid and its immoral reality Communism would have seemed better 

But Sweden wasn't the problem, it wasn't promoting any true  Communist or Socialist. It was always supporting the true values of any sustainable  Democracy 

But how come you remember  that statement?

Heh, I know my dad supported helping african countries out because he didn't want "them" here... =P

Well, it was particularly egregious considering that HIV was/is a huge problem in SA, and I was much more socially active back then since I was unemployed and had way too much time. I was sent to a youth centre to hide unemployment figures help them with their staffing problem together with some of my friends. There were alot of people there that was very much in favour of "alternatives" to science, and I was a member of the Swedish Skeptics' Association so I read alot of journals and listened to a bunch of podcasts where I read and heard her statements.

[majestic]

Garlic and beets at least don't cause rapes, what with this whole virgin cleansing myth that's been going on since like... forever, now? Couple hundred years at least.

[Azdeus]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

Garlic and beets at least don't cause rapes, what with this whole virgin cleansing myth that's been going on since like... forever, now? Couple hundred years at least.

Well, they could've stayed virgins, likely not gotten infected, AND recieved a wizard certificate when they hit 30!

 

[Gromnir]

five people have died from the chaos o' the riot at the capitol.

how many will die 'cause during the worst week o' the pandemic in the US thus far, trump called tens o' thousands o' his supporters together from across the nation, ignoring cdc & state health department travel guidance, so that his maskless and non social distanced fans could engage in a super spreader event which didn't even manage to remain an outdoor event? 

got $20 says the number is more than five.

On 1/5/2021 at 9:25 AM, BruceVC said:

I was watching this on CNN, what a terrible choice to  make for anyone 

But the reality of the virus spread  and the limited resources in  all countries means these type of truly invidious decisions have to be made....its quite depressing 

is this tacit recognition that things has indeed gotten worse since 12/22/2020?

our hope is that the worst comes w/i the next couple weeks, followed by relative dramatic decreases in mortality as hospital numbers drop below levels which is current impacting quality of care.

would be nice if vaccine distribution were occurring better than predicted as 'posed to significant worse. who woulda' guessed that w/o a plan or coordination there would be similar chaos for vaccine as there were for testing... testing which is once again almost useless as we may personal attest. four days after first symptoms is when we could get a appointment for a test. five days from test is when am expecting results. 

january is gonna be bad and will likely get worse in many parts o' the US. unnecessary bad.

there is an end in sight, but it will get worse before it gets better. is no magic ritual or vaccine which is gonna change the short-term pain. we all know what we should be doing; no need to repeat. try and stay safe, and consider how your actions affect others. 

as an aside, given our current flu related headache (different but only slight better than our migraine with aura experiences) am willing to consider inca skull surgery to relive the pressure am feeling. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Quick status from Germany:

The new highly infectious mutant from the UK was officially discovered in Bavaria and Berlin. As we can see with the UK: Germany's current "soft lockdown" won't be enough to flatten or even drop the curve. At the same time vaccination in Germany isn't going smoothly. The EU was too conservative and cautious when pre-ordering vaccines and German logistics aren't working out (which is a bit of a surprise - well maybe not given the fact that Germany didn't upgrade its local health authorities during summer).

At the same time about 50% of the nursing staff doesn't want to get vaccinated (wtf?). People who were rel. compliant so far start to moan because German politicians keep meandering from one half-baked solution to the next. A hard lockdown for two or three weeks could buy a lot of time in order to vaccinate more people (and to improve distribution and acceptance) and keep the incidence under a certain threshold until spring/summer, But you won't see that. I guess Merkel would do it if she could (she campaigned for more strict/impactful measures right from the start and tried to listen to scientists very closely - maybe because she's got a PhD in physics) but she can't just bypass the gouvernors.

I'm usually not a fan of Merkel's uninspired politics - but she was and still is trying really hard in this case. Her approval ratings are going through the roof right now (83%) but at the same time it's like she's Don Quijote. 

I also want to come back to that thread from Feb. when Merkel said something along the lines of "This will be the greatest challenge since WWII" and I agreed but several forum users expressed doubt (fair enough) or even ridiculed me. I'm too lazy to dig out the quotes but still:


  

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[Bartimaeus]

11 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

At the same time about 50% of the nursing staff doesn't want to get vaccinated (wtf?). People who were rel. compliant so far start to moan because German politicians keep meandering from one half-baked solution to the next. A hard lockdown for two or three weeks could buy a lot of time in order to vaccinate more people (and to improve distribution and acceptance) and keep the incidence under a certain threshold until spring/summer, But you won't see that. I guess Merkel would do it if she could (she campaigned for more strict/impactful measures right from the start and tried to listen to scientists very closely - maybe because she's got a PhD in physics) but she can't just bypass the gouvernors.

We (we being the hospitals in my local area, potentially across the state/country but I don't make so grand a claim as such) are having the exact same problem regarding vaccination compliance, literally right about the same place at around 50% refusal to comply as well. You guys have seen how many people die of this virus, you are working hands-on with everyone (including those NOT infected) and still go home to your families each day...what's wrong with all of you?

[Boeroer]

Yeah no idea really. Even my mother in law who's a medical doctor (70 years old) thought about not getting vaccinated - because she's afraid of yet undiscovered long-term side effects. I mean what are the odds that a side effect of a mRNA-vaccination will be more severe than an infection (which is likely to happen) at that age? Luckily she thought it over after some talks with her children (who all have 2 or more kids themselves) and now she will get vaccinated.

My own parents who used to be blue-collar workers and didn't receive higher eduction would get vaccinated asap though. Weird times...    

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I also want to come back to that thread from Feb. when Merkel said something along the lines of "This will be the greatest challenge since WWII" and I agreed but several forum users expressed doubt (fair enough) or even ridiculed me. I'm too lazy to dig out the quotes but still:


  

I admit I underestimated the degree to which governments will make this a challenge.

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

We (we being the hospitals in my local area, potentially across the state/country but I don't make so grand a claim as such) are having the exact same problem regarding vaccination compliance, literally right about the same place at around 50% refusal to comply as well. You guys have seen how many people die of this virus, you are working hands-on with everyone (including those NOT infected) and still go home to your families each day...what's wrong with all of you?

I'm surprised that 50% wants to be vaccinated when they are medically educated.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

I admit I underestimated the degree to which governments will make this a challenge.

What you should have said is that you underestimated the pandemic; showing a spine, owning your mistake. It has its merits. One of Germany's leftist gouvernors (Thüringen) admitted that he totally underestimated this pandemic. A conservative one (Sachsen) said the same after he visited some hospitals in Sachsen-Anhalt last week. They are truly sorry for advocating for soft measures instead for hard (but short) ones. And people applaud them for admitting they were wrong. It's not a political issue. It's about grit in the face of personal failure.
Digging just a deeper hole just to avoid admitting a mistake on the other hands has no merit.
 

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

I'm surprised that 50% wants to be vaccinated when they are medically educated.

If you're medically educated you should be able to follow the scientific publications around the mRNA vaccines which all indicate nearly no side effects - and if then mostly from additional constituents - that are all known. Also the millions of vaccinated people in the UK and Isreal who showed no severe side effects should comfort you. But I'm not surprised that you are surprised. You haven't shown a whole lot of reasonable thoughts in the past - so why start now...?  
  

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[Skarpen]

49 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What you should have said is that you underestimated the pandemic; showing a spine, owning your mistake. It has its merits. One of Germany's leftist gouvernors (Thüringen) admitted that he totally underestimated this pandemic. A conservative one (Sachsen) said the same after he visited some hospitals in Sachsen-Anhalt last week. They are truly sorry for advocating for soft measures instead for hard (but short) ones. And people applaud them for admitting they were wrong. It's not a political issue. It's about grit in the face of personal failure.
Digging just a deeper hole just to avoid admitting a mistake on the other hands has no merit.
 

If you're medically educated you should be able to follow the scientific publications around the mRNA vaccines which all indicate nearly no side effects - and if then mostly from additional constituents - that are all known. Also the millions of vaccinated people in the UK and Isreal who shoped no severy side effects should comfort you. But I'm not surprised that you are surprised. You haven't shown a whole lot of reasonable thoughts in the past - so why start now...?  
  

Well there is not one "challenge" that originate from the "pandemic" not by governments incompetent responses. We don't have piles of bodies that we have to burn or ditch in the holes. What we have is a spike in non-Covid death from easily treated illnesses, businesses going out, people loosing jobs, suicide rates spikes and the rest of nonsense brought by governments. So, yeah I will stand by the "governments make it a challenge".

Well the vaccines are not given long enough to check the long-term effects. Maybe they have it maybe they don't. The fact is we don't know it as it wasn't tested for them. And to be honest I don't get the negativity for people who don't want to get vaccinated. As the things stand right now not one government have the quantity to give it even to people who wants it and the magical 70% is years in the future at the current pace.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Skarpen

[Boeroer]

The average incident in Poland is nearly the same as in Germany. Thus it's reasonable to expect the same excess mortality. Sadly Poland is no part of EuroMomo so I can't quickly get reliable and comparable numbers but I would be very surprised if mortality rates among the elderly would differ that much with the same incident.

This article comes to the same conclusion basically:
https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/10/29/record-numbers-of-death-certificates-show-hidden-victims-of-pandemic-in-poland/

Vaccination: The point was about nursing staff not wanting to get vaccinated. Those who care for the elderly specifically. If they don't get vaccinated they will endanger the lives of those they care for. And that's reckless and bad. If you as a healthy individual with no preconditions and contact to endangered people don't want to get vaccinated because you fear unknown side effects I can understand. But I cannot understand if you're medical or nursing staff. That's a bit like a surgeon who refuses to disinfect his hands because he's afraid of dry skin.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[BruceVC]

6 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Well there is not one "challenge" that originate from the "pandemic" not by governments incompetent responses. We don't have piles of bodies that we have to burn or ditch in the holes. What we have is a spike in non-Covid death from easily treated illnesses, businesses going out, people loosing jobs, suicide rates spikes and the rest of nonsense brought by governments. So, yeah I will stand by the "governments make it a challenge".

Yes but you need to accept you have been part of the failure of the Polish governments attempt to slowdown the virus spread. You cant blame your government for the large Xmas party your family decided to have which you knew went against global virus advice as these large events spread the virus as people  are in close contact. 

But this is not about your decision only, I am sure many Polish families had large Xmas parties if they could so the spread of the virus is about the  failure of the whole society and your government plays a part 

Your county is the same as most of our  countries, we have also failed to stop the virus spread and we are dealing with "second\third " waves 

 

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

We (we being the hospitals in my local area, potentially across the state/country but I don't make so grand a claim as such) are having the exact same problem regarding vaccination compliance, literally right about the same place at around 50% refusal to comply as well. You guys have seen how many people die of this virus, you are working hands-on with everyone (including those NOT infected) and still go home to your families each day...what's wrong with all of you?

To be fair, these vaccines are based on a new technology and nobody knows for certain what the long-term effects will be. Many people are understandably a little uncomfortable with having a foreign substance injected in their muscles. Even in the medical field, there are people who are a little uncomfortable with vaccines. That being said, at this point I'll feel relieved to get my booster shot and (hopefully) be fully immunized.

[Boeroer]

You have to admire some of the asian countries and some like New Zealand that stopped the pandemic with swift concerted and mutual action of society and government.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boeroer

[BruceVC]

25 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

You have to admire some of the asian countries and some like New Zealand that stopped the pandemic with swift concerted and mutual action of society and government.

Honestly that is the only thing I do admire about a country like China, the citizens listen and dont question government and CCP doesnt have to worry about any human rights or independent courts to implement draconian laws to stop the virus spread. You dont have a choice to say "no to a mask " 

[Skarpen]

36 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes but you need to accept you have been part of the failure of the Polish governments attempt to slowdown the virus spread. You cant blame your government for the large Xmas party your family decided to have which you knew went against global virus advice as these large events spread the virus as people  are in close contact. 

But this is not about your decision only, I am sure many Polish families had large Xmas parties if they could so the spread of the virus is about the  failure of the whole society and your government plays a part 

Your county is the same as most of our  countries, we have also failed to stop the virus spread and we are dealing with "second\third " waves 

 

There is not one death related to family gathering but there was quite a few suicides due to government destroying whole branches of our economy. And spikes in deaths (we had the most death in November since WWII) was three times higher than covid related deaths. And it was due the fact that that the public health is practically blocked by restrictions and people cannot normally visit a doctor and don't get the necessary treatment. There was few people dying of heart attack because they didn't had covid test and did not received treatment on time. So yeah I definitely can blame the government for the failure of this whole "pandemic". We have few percent less deaths than Sweden and it's not worth butchering the economy the way government did it.

[Boeroer]

46 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Honestly that is the only thing I do admire about a country like China, the citizens listen and dont question government and CCP doesnt have to worry about any human rights or independent courts to implement draconian laws to stop the virus spread. You dont have a choice to say "no to a mask " 

I didn't have China in mind. It's easy(er) to push things through in an autocratic society like China, no doubt.

But what I admire are the democratic countries like South Korea or Taiwan where the people and their governments did pull together.
On the other hand they have experience with respiratory pandemics and also a warmer climate. But still impressive how they handled it.  

[Zoraptor]

Korea is colder than western Europe in winter though, by a decent amount too as they get their weather straight out of Siberia rather than the Gulf Stream. -16.1 celsius in Seoul a couple of days ago, and Seoul isn't even far inland or very elevated. You'd have to get to Lappland or eastern Europe to get colder.

2 hours ago, rjshae said:

To be fair, these vaccines are based on a new technology and nobody knows for certain what the long-term effects will be. Many people are understandably a little uncomfortable with having a foreign substance injected in their muscles. Even in the medical field, there are people who are a little uncomfortable with vaccines. That being said, at this point I'll feel relieved to get my booster shot and (hopefully) be fully immunized.

My presumption would be that health workers would expect to have been exposed already, and potentially have had asymptomatic infection and thus some level of immunity. If they were worried about new technology it would have to be what the mRNA is suspended in rather than the mRNA itself. If you get infected the virus will make that mRNA anyway, it's how it reproduces and ultimately how you get the immunity 'naturally'. All the vaccines do is skip the infection step for getting the mRNA expressed directly; so whether you got immunity naturally or through a jab you'd have had 'foreign' mRNA made. BBeing worried about the adjuvant or whatever is still a bit weird, all medicines have potential side effects of some sort, even stuff like aspirin.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Zoraptor

[rjshae]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

My presumption would be that health workers would expect to have been exposed already, and potentially have had asymptomatic infection and thus some level of immunity. If they were worried about new technology it would have to be what the mRNA is suspended in rather than the mRNA itself. If you get infected the virus will make that mRNA anyway, it's how it reproduces and ultimately how you get the immunity 'naturally'. All the vaccines do is skip the infection step for getting the mRNA expressed directly; so whether you got immunity naturally or through a jab you'd have had 'foreign' mRNA made. Being worried about the adjuvant or whatever is still a bit weird, all medicines have potential side effects of some sort, even stuff like aspirin.

I think your premise is faulty -- it likely only applies to ICU workers and paramedics, not all health care employees.

[Zoraptor]

Certainly could be faulty, it's very much a presumption.

I'd expect even most non intensive care hospital types to have been exposed though, no matter the precautions, too much covid about for general patients not to get it with the variable symptoms and the tests not 100% reliable especially when the symptoms aren't severe. But that is very much supposition, as is it being the reason why there's some, uh, resistance to the vaccine among them. There'd certainly be some general distrust of a vaccine that has not been subject to the same length of scrutiny as would normally happen.