Politics 2020

[Gorth]

Old thread

Vote Gorth for dictator! No more more uncertainty, no more pointless political wrangling, no more endless debates!

 

On a slightly more serious note, previous thread ended with whether or not there was a point in third party candidates. In the orange corner Guard Dog, in the purple corner a tag team of other forum members

 

[Skarpen]

13 minutes ago, Gorth said:

On a slightly more serious note, previous thread ended with whether or not there was a point in third party candidates. In the orange corner Guard Dog, in the purple corner a tag team of other forum members

[BruceVC]

I mentioned before I am enjoying debating with you because we dont often seem to keep new members on Off Topic for long periods and I am not sure why but people sometimes leave and then we never hear from them ....when I first started reading  your posts I misread you completely around what I thought you were interested in and what you believe around the US electoral system. And Im  not being condescending its just on certain topics I am always happy to accept  I may be missing something and often its more about a different perspective but I need details to understand the point, basically how you respond or links help to highlight an example. Thats the art of debate, its not about necessarily agreeing but rather sharing information. 

Its normal to disagree on certain topics  like the importance of who to vote for, as I mentioned I share your opinion but you will get to know peoples views as time goes on. You and GD will share many common views but he has always been consistent in his rejection of the principle of " you must vote for the 2 main parties " but he will always give reasons why. He can correct me but he feels the parties are similar in how they dont really offer solutions to absolutely real problems that the country should be dealing with....like the debt clock 

So I suppose for GD its not that he is jaded or uncaring about voting, he stands by Libertarian views because they do represent consistency?

I am sure you are use to debating interesting topics on forums but dont get put off if sometimes people disagree with you, you haven't interacted with all other forum members like volo  and sometimes peoples posts may get misunderstood. For me these are really complex topics  based on previous things like the last election and how Trump won and the reasons why many Americans will vote for Trump again and it is because he represents certain policies that do matter to them....they are not going to be swayed by reasons I could give for certain Trump inconsistencies and its not  enough to say " Trump is a racist and a sexist " for example because sometimes these views are based on a reaction to Trumps mannerisms and this not the same as believing Trump is really a bigot. This is quite important to accept and what has exacerbated this view is the unfair perception that can exist that the " media " is biased and you cannot believe what certain news channels say  about one party or the  other and sometimes the media does exist in a certain view and can be seen as "anti-Trump " "pro-Trump " 

Anyway do you mind  sharing some information just so I know your general views, no need to share anything you feel is personal. But for example , where do you live , what is your general view on the state of the USA , what do think about the protracted and violent protests we see due to Antifa and other activists and any other titbits of relevant news like ....what is your favorite food ....and please dont tell me you are Vegan because that is definitely unpatriotic 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BruceVC

[Gfted1]

Hopefully the Senate can stall the scj nomination until after November.

Is there some time limit between nomination and confirmation that would force them to act before then?

[HoonDing]

"Ding dong, the witch is dead" - and suddenly the turtle became the hare

[Hurlshort]

41 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Hopefully the Senate can stall the scj nomination until after November.

Is there some time limit between nomination and confirmation that would force them to act before then?

The problem is the Republicans have control of the senate, so they have no reason to stall. I mean, of course they will look like hypocrites after stalling 4 years ago on Garland, but nobody seems to care about hypocrisy if it helps their team win. Go political sports team go. 

 

[Gfted1]

3 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

The problem is the Republicans have control of the senate, so they have no reason to stall.

Ah, I had forgotten about that.

[Lexx]

So apparently Trump is going to ban TikTok for real. Does he really have the powers to do stuff like that? Feels weird - are we sure america isn't a dictatorship yet?

[HoonDing]

"are we sure america isn't a dictatorship yet? "

 

it has always been

[StupidSeal]

Insider here. American politics are all a show. Public has no say in the matter, in fact who gets ''voted'' in is done + performed by rock, paper, scissors. 

[Guard Dog]

Some prominent goddamn Democrats are promising to expand the Supreme Court. That is an even more naked power grab than Trump & McConnell trying to ram through a nomination inside 48 days. A smart play would be to make a deal with the goddamned Democrats not to ram through a nomination in return for  a pledge not to expand the court until they get a permeant majority. Not that I expect them to honor it. As an election issue this actually helps the Orange Menace I think. It played a significant part in 2016. Of course Trump was something of an unknown in '16. Now voters know what they are getting and... it ain't impressive. 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

So apparently Trump is going to ban TikTok for real. Does he really have the powers to do stuff like that? Feels weird - are we sure america isn't a dictatorship yet?

On a serious note TikTok should be banned because it is definitely a security risk around data protection. I am not joking, part of my work is we have to be updated on real and potential new ways  of hacking and how data can be comprised. Now TIikTok by itself is a very clever and well design application but what Trump is suggesting does have a valid point  even if he just making this announcement as part of his " distraction to somehow blame China for the virus " .

Please ignore what Zora was suggesting that Tiktok has no less risk of data being compromised or copied than any other similar product in the USA ...that is not even remotely true and if it was true than this decision would be inconsistent.

Firstly the company that designed Tiktok, like all similar Chinese companies including Huawei that has real security issues, are the same as all other clever companies that created this social media app that really has a global audience so it resonates with many young people. My nieces both use Tiktok and they seem to love it, I also believe the owners never intended their tool to be a security risk 

But the datacenter and replication sites exist in HK and another location but the reality of all and any Chinese " private "  sector companies is that the CCP can at any time demand and make any additional tweaks or fundamental changes to a products core software code to allow levels of access ....this means you can penetrate any network in the world but you go through the OSI level 2 and it  then connects upwards.  

https://www.cpomagazine.com/tech/u-s-shares-evidence-of-huawei-backdoor-access-to-mobile-phone-networks-with-uk-and-germany/

This is highly unethical and it does comprise the overall security features of the product in any environment as you can imagine and there has never been any evidence of this type of backdoor existing in the worlds current routing companies that have dominated the world for the last 20 years or so.

So what has this got to do with Tiktok, everything basically  because the CCP can at anytime request data access to anyone form Tiktok and all personal information will be provided

So the only real question we should ask is a simple one "are you comfortable with the CCP being able to access your Tiktok data ?

Yes it is  a young persons tool and the data is almost all innocuous but the principle should be a major concern that you cannot guarantee data security with Tiktok 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

On a serious note TikTok should be banned because it is definitely a security risk around data protection. I am not joking, part of my work is we have to be updated on real and potential new ways  of hacking and how data can be comprised. Now TIikTok by itself is a very clever and well design application but what Trump is suggesting does have a valid point  even if he just making this announcement as part of his " distraction to somehow blame China for the virus " .

TikTok may give user data to Chinese government, but if you ban TikTok because of that, you definitely should ban at least Facebook, but probably also Instagram, Whatsapp, Twitter,  YouTube and Discord. As they give their user data to US government and also sell it to other companies and political institutions. And at least Facebook was caught sharing data which they didn't have users permission to share.

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, Elerond said:

TikTok may give user data to Chinese government, but if you ban TikTok because of that, you definitely should ban at least Facebook, but probably also Instagram, Whatsapp, Twitter,  YouTube and Discord. As they give their user data to US government and also sell it to other companies and political institutions. And at least Facebook was caught sharing data which they didn't have users permission to share.

Elerond I respect your opinion on these discussions because you have a very   reasonable and understandable view of privacy and peoples right. Plus you live in Finland which means you respect the EU and the positive things it brings to all countries. You also a software developer, which I never knew, so you understand how most software components work so I can get straight to the technical point....but reading your post I need to explain it differently

But can we first  agree on where the issue lies, the link below is what Facebook is accused of , Is the same thing you are talking about ?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-gave-some-companies-preferential-user-data-according-to-uk-parliament/

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BruceVC

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Of course Trump was something of an unknown in '16.

Trump has been a public figure since the 1970's. Anyone who didn't know what they buying with their vote in '16 lived under a rock.

 

[Malcador]

People buy Budweiser still.  Don't give people too much credit

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, HoonDing said:

"are we sure america isn't a dictatorship yet? "

 

it has always been

How do you feel about this, please be very honest and emotional ....we go back a long and I hope you think of me as someone you can confide in

You know I always give you prudent advice, lets be honest... you have never disagreed with me therefore its real advice that has clearly benefitted you 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Malcador said:

People buy Budweiser still.

I get the joke, but people don't buy budwieser thinking that maybe they'll open the can and find champagne inside.

[Elerond]

30 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond I respect your opinion on these discussions because you have a very   reasonable and understandable view of privacy and peoples right. Plus you live in Finland which means you respect the EU and the positive things it brings to all countries. You also a software developer, which I never knew, so you understand how most software components work so I can get straight to the technical point....but reading your post I need to explain it differently

But can we first  agree on where the issue lies, the link below is what Facebook is accused of , Is the same thing you are talking about ?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/facebook-gave-some-companies-preferential-user-data-according-to-uk-parliament/

 

 

Facebook shared at least for 10 years user data of people who were friends of users of Facebook applications to companies that developed those applications without asking permission to share such information or informing people whose date they shared. 

https://techcrunch.com/2015/04/28/facebook-api-shut-down/

Also even this year Facebook still shared userdata to app delevopers long after their permission to share that data was ended.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/02/facebook-discovers-it-shared-user-data-with-at-least-5000-app-developers-after-a-cutoff-data/

Edited September 19, 2020 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

25 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Facebook shared at least for 10 years user data of people who were friends of users of Facebook applications to companies that developed those applications without asking permission to share such information or informing people whose date they shared. 

Okay but Elerond these developments are not the same degrees of risk and dont have the same intent 

Yes Facebook was accused of companies  getting access to peoples data, it was acknowledged it was wrong and Facebook has made several apologies and changes to there data privacy ?

But the Tiktok risk is completely different, the Chinese government can at any time with no legal way to stop it gain access to all user data ....and this is the same risk there other software  products and devices can pose. You cannot really compare a country that is known for cyber -espionage with the reality of Facebooks mistakes ?

What I am concerned about is after this discussion you may be chatting to friends about how Tiktok is a real risk and they will say its the same as Facebook,,,,now you can explain the difference 

Remember this is about  a very serious situation where China has been silently stealing some IP from companies for years. I am sure you are critical of any kind of theft of IP 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html

And we still like China, it has a very important role around the global economy  but there ability to sell Huawei and other software products to countries that dont want to be professionally hackd  has to addressed and stopped 

 

[Elerond]

4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Okay but Elerond these developments are not the same degrees of risk and dont have the same intent 

Yes Facebook was accused of companies  getting access to peoples data, it was acknowledged it was wrong and Facebook has made several apologies and changes to there data privacy ?

But the Tiktok risk is completely different, the Chinese government can at any time with no legal way to stop it gain access to all user data ....and this is the same risk there other software  products and devices can pose. You cannot really compare a country that is known for cyber -espionage with the reality of Facebooks mistakes ?

What I am concerned about is after this discussion you may be chatting to friends about how Tiktok is a real risk and they will say its the same as Facebook,,,,now you can explain the difference 

Remember this is about  a very serious situation where China has been silently stealing some IP from companies for years. I am sure you are critical of any kind of theft of IP 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html

And we still like China, it has a very important role around the global economy  but there ability to sell Huawei and other software products to countries that dont want to be professionally hackd  has to addressed and stopped 

 

US government can do same, which why EU insist that all user data about EU citizens needs to be stored in servers in EU in order for big companies to be allowed to operate in EU. EU and USA had agreement called EU-US Privacy Shield (which replaced ) which allowed companies to store EU citizen data to USA, but that was invalidated because  Court of Justice of the European Union come in conclusion that it can't be sure that companies don't share EU citizens data to US government. 

So question is more of punishing singular company in order to gain advantage in trade talks with company's home country and force said company to sell its operations to US owners instead of ensuring that said company follows US privacy and data protection laws in US .

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Elerond said:

US government can do same, which why EU insist that all user data about EU citizens needs to be stored in servers in EU in order for big companies to be allowed to operate in EU. EU and USA had agreement called EU-US Privacy Shield (which replaced ) which allowed companies to store EU citizen data to USA, but that was invalidated because  Court of Justice of the European Union come in conclusion that it can't be sure that companies don't share EU citizens data to US government. 

So question is more of punishing singular company in order to gain advantage in trade talks with company's home country and force said company to sell its operations to US owners instead of ensuring that said company follows US privacy and data protection laws in US .

No not at all, this is not about punishment ....forget Trumps comments. Dont think this is about Trump, he is just the one raising the one issue which is just about Tiktok but Tittok is about the overall serious security risk,,,,but yes its the principle of the data being accessed unlawfully that should concern you

Does it not concern you that China has unrestricted access to your Tiktok data? 

But Elerond this is exactly what is happening in places like the UK and other countries that are banning Huawei and this will continue in countries and most institutions that require security  which is all banks and majority of listed companies globally 

https://androidrookies.com/list-of-countries-which-have-banned-ousted-chinas-huawei-from-their-5g-infrastructure/

Huawei will still be sold in China and other companies where this type of security risk is not  a business concern. For example the company I worked for last year there was a product manager I worked with who was responsible for the Huawei and he had a very good relationship with Huawei in South Africa, he closed a Huawei sales deal with one of the SA mines and he won the deal because Huawei went in with 3 % margin and there engineers did an excellent job at installing the network infrastructure

But they will lose lots of business and Tiktok has the same risk but the data is not that important but as I mentioned most people are very concerned with the idea of  illegal data access 

 

[Elerond]

8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No not at all, this is not about punishment ....forget Trumps comments. Dont think this is about Trump, he is just the one raising the one issue which is just about Tiktok but Tittok is about the overall serious security risk,,,,but yes its the principle of the data being accessed unlawfully that should concern you

Does it not concern you that China has unrestricted access to your Tiktok data? 

But Elerond this is exactly what is happening in places like the UK and other countries that are banning Huawei and this will continue in countries and most institutions that require security  which is all banks and majority of listed companies globally 

https://androidrookies.com/list-of-countries-which-have-banned-ousted-chinas-huawei-from-their-5g-infrastructure/

Huawei will still be sold in China and other companies where this type of security risk is not  a business concern. For example the company I worked for last year there was a product manager I worked with who was responsible for the Huawei and he had a very good relationship with Huawei in South Africa, he closed a Huawei sales deal with one of the SA mines and he won the deal because Huawei went in with 3 % margin and there engineers did an excellent job at installing the network infrastructure

But they will lose lots of business and Tiktok has the same risk but the data is not that important but as I mentioned most people are very concerned with the idea of  illegal data access 

 

It is absolutely seems to be more about punishment and trying to prevent competition on market than anything else.

Of course it is concern that foreign government has unrestricted access to my data, which is why I support EU's privacy and data protection efforts which are designed to prevent such access by limiting where, when, how long, what companies can store about me if they want to operate in EU.

Banning singular company that doesn't break any laws (at least it has not convicted for such) is not about protecting user data, because you would do that with by creating privacy and data protection laws that would make it illegal for company to give your data to Chinese government. But for some reason USA doesn't want to create such privacy and data protection laws, but instead they are aiming to kill non-US competition.

Huawei is not best example as lots of bans against it are because of US trade war efforts against China. Also UK isn't best example of country that follows international laws if it doesn't fit in their governments agenda.

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Elerond said:

I

Huawei is not best example as lots of bans against it are because of US trade war efforts against China. Also UK isn't best example of country that follows international laws if it doesn't fit in their governments agenda.

What happened in the UK was due to the USA doing a deep analysis of how China had stolen certain IP from some of there corporations

That was when the nature of the Huawei backdoor access was identified, from what someone told me it was a very clever and intricate software hack\access

They then shared this reality with the UK  who were busy with there 5G implementation and the last thing the UK wanted as to stop using the Huawei kit but once the risk was understood they cancelled all the 5G kit at a great cost but it was necessary

Elerond you cant keep making excuses for the Huawei security exposure ,,,,,yes China is involved in creating this problem for Huawei but it is a now tarnished there name forever

Elerond !!!! Why are you  being racist,,,,the UK is going through pressure due to BREXIT and the virus....they are allowed to  take insurance for  Irish deal in a fair way ?

[HoonDing]

i rather give my data to China & Russia than UK & US