Translating wizard builds from PoE1

[n00biwan]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

My problem is your approach to this discussion if that wasn't obvious.

Anyway, I think I made my points. Future readers may decide who made reasonable arguments and if "trash", "garbage" and such were the right terms to describe the caster classes and their abilites in Deadfire. In comparison to PoE or whatever you want to compare it to.

My approach? My statement was that casters in general are way worse in deadfire than in poe1. I never make any statements without extensive testing, and I've proven my points with videos, and I'm willing to prove any of my statements if you have any doubts what so ever. No one with extensive knowledge of both games can say the deadfire casters are not complete garbage compared to their poe1 counter parts, as long as bdd/sot/wod is not abused. 

As for certain buffed spells like slicken, combustive wounds etc, these sure are great vs trash mobs no one cares about, any time a caster is face against any type of hard encounter, their performance is abysmal compared to their poe1 counter parts. 

Like you say, lets let future readers decide. I mean, I'm getting my point across right? Surely no one in their right mind , who has enough knowledge of both games, can say that casters in deadfire are any where near as good as they were in poe1. If I'm not mistaken, thats what this post topic is originally about.

Edit: also lets not go back to the WoD vs Rake argument again, one is a skill you point and click to cast, the other one takes 20mins of metagaming and extreme cheese prep

Edited May 26, 2020 by n00biwan

[Boeroer]

The only thing you did was posting some videos in which PoE Wizards fought dragons with a multitude of spells while claiming that you can kill them reliably with three casts of Freezing Rake alone. Which - even if it would be the case - does neither support nor prove your initial statement that Deadfire casters are garbage and that you should avoid playing them. It doesn't even touch it. It wouldn't even matter if you could kill a dragon with one cast of Freezing Rake - it's just a deflection. 

Your approach to a question like "How do I translate wizard builds from PoE to Deadfire?" was basically "Casters in Deadfire are garbage so pick a martial class". And there lies my problem. 

1 hour ago, n00biwan said:

Surely no one in their right mind , who has enough knowledge of both games, can say that casters in deadfire are any where near as good as they were in poe1.

I would say that I have extensive knowledge and that I'm mentally healthy - and yet I insist that Deadfire's casters are not garbage - which was your initial claim.
If you would have said "They are not as powerful as in PoE" we wouldn't have this discussion at all. But you didn't say that. Instead you claimed that they are garbage and that it's best to pick something else.
I laid out the reasons why I think that that's not correct and why I think they are good, fun to play and why they had to change for Deadfire - all in previous posts. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Boeroer

[n00biwan]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

 I would say that I have extensive knowledge and that I'm mentally healthy - 

 

 

 

 

This reply speaks for itself, done arguing with the all mighty Boeroer with extensive game knowledge, I admit defeat

Edited May 26, 2020 by n00biwan

[Boeroer]

That was merely a reply to your presumptuous sentence "Surely no one in their right mind , who has enough knowledge of both games, can say[...]" as you well know. As if only insane people or beginners wouldn't agree with you. Trying to twist this into an pretentious statemenet of mine is quite dishonest.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

Claiming mages are weak in Deadfire... that's a very low effort trolling bait.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Haplok

[Kaylon]

3 hours ago, Haplok said:

Claiming mages are weak in Deadfire... that's a very low effort trolling bait.

He said compared to PoE1 (like most classes) which I also agree. In Deadfire priests/wizards are considered OP only because the SoT/Wall of Draining cheese... Without those spells they would be on par with druids, ie just an average class...

[Haplok]

Megabosses aside, nuker mages are plenty strong enough with the likes of empowered high end spells and/or Deltro's Cage helmet lash. Don't need SoT/WoD/Brilliant really to clear normal encounters.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Haplok

[Raven Darkholme]

@Topic 

Sadly translating builds from poe1 to deadfire is almost impossible, as others have already answered.

Not only did classes and abilities get changed but we also have new items.

Deadfire is more of a buffing game than Poe1, a lot of enemies have way more hp than the mighty dragons in poe1, so oneshotting doesn't happen in the same way it used to happen.

Even casters are more effective if they have a way to augment their auto attacks, since the most powerful modal - bleeding cuts is so strong it shreds thousands of hp in a minute if properly prebuffed.

So in a way casters are stronger than in poe 1, they can output more dmg (which they actually need to because enemies with thousands of hp actually exist, unlike in deadfire where 900 hp was max) and can last longer in a fight because of infinite resources and healing/bdd.

They just don't do their primary damage thru spells, but the main reasons for this aren't even the nerfs to spell damage (high tier spells actually do MORE damage than any poe 1 spell), but mainly the really weird implementation of ar and pen combined with the fact that other things do damage simply better than those spells.

[Boeroer]

If you have some thematic wizard builds you want to translate it may be that you just need to multiclass. For example I did that Mountain Dwarf Bilestomper Wizard who made himself nearly invulnerable against poison and disease and most fortitude based attacks and then tanked enemies and showered himself with all those poison/disease spells like Noxius Burst, Maglignant Cloud and so on. 

You can do that in Deadfire with a Paladin/Wizard because the Paladin gets a passive that makes you immune to poison and disease. How fitting. The tanking and the casting of those spells on top of yourself works even better then.

I also made a variant with fire and ice spells (with a Pale Elf obviously) and in Deadfire you can do the fire variant very nicely with Rekvu's Scorched Cloak while the ice variant is nice with the BoW-ice-outfit. 

Stuff like that. So recreating thematic builds isn't that hard. You can even end up with something more interesting.

Very special "powergamey" builds that require certain unique items or other delicate synergies are of course harder to do - or even impossible.

What I really don't like is that they put Caedebald's Blackbow into PL8 - it would have been so nice for multiclassing...

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Boeroer

[mr_raider]

5 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

@Topic 

Sadly translating builds from poe1 to deadfire is almost impossible, as others have already answered.

Not only did classes and abilities get changed but we also have new items.

Deadfire is more of a buffing game than Poe1, a lot of enemies have way more hp than the mighty dragons in poe1, so oneshotting doesn't happen in the same way it used to happen.

Even casters are more effective if they have a way to augment their auto attacks, since the most powerful modal - bleeding cuts is so strong it shreds thousands of hp in a minute if properly prebuffed.

So in a way casters are stronger than in poe 1, they can output more dmg (which they actually need to because enemies with thousands of hp actually exist, unlike in deadfire where 900 hp was max) and can last longer in a fight because of infinite resources and healing/bdd.

They just don't do their primary damage thru spells, but the main reasons for this aren't even the nerfs to spell damage (high tier spells actually do MORE damage than any poe 1 spell), but mainly the really weird implementation of ar and pen combined with the fact that other things do damage simply better than those spells.

So what about builds that focus in combusting wounds? How is there damage output?

 

I'm willing to try multiclass on later runs, but for a first time I was looking at a pure wizard, focused on damage or crowd control.

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Kaylon said:

He said compared to PoE1 (like most classes) which I also agree. In Deadfire priests/wizards are considered OP only because the SoT/Wall of Draining cheese...

mm, nope. 

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, mr_raider said:

So what about builds that focus in combusting wounds? How is there damage output?

As an SC Wizard you can combine Combusting Wounds with pulsing spells like Chillfog, Freezing Pillar, beams and walls and so on - and minor missiles and blunderbusses, too. The damage output is very good as long as the enemy isn't resistant/immune to burn damage.

[Noqn]

39 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

As an SC Wizard you can combine Combusting Wounds with pulsing spells like Chillfog

Wait, Chill Fog doesn't counter Combusting Wounds?

How does keyword counters work in this game again?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Noqn

[Boeroer]

I have no idea.

Chillfog does trigger CW, even Frostseeker does iirc (might be wrong here though) - but I have issues with Tekehu using the Mith Fyr chant (it gets cleared by his godlike passive which makes sense but is also annoying ). Maybe explicit water spells do quench/not work with CW, but I didn't do a comprehensive test. At first glance it seems that this "element x counters element y" stuff doesn't work at all (besides Tekehu). Maybe it was planned to be like inspiration vs. affliction, but it surely didn't get implemented thoroughly (if at all). And what would counter acid, what shock? Maybe they dropped it because it just wasn't worth the hassle. 

If others have more insight then please share!  Would love to know what works and what wouldn't. 

Anyway - multiple Chillfogs, a Wall of Flames, Wicked Briars and such things combined with CW is often my 1-trick-pony approach in a lot of encounters in the mid game. Most classes have one or more of those pulsing or multiprojectile abilites and the others can use stuff like blunderbusses or Sun & Moon (with Swift Flurry even...) or so. Even against some late(ish) enemies that are vulnerable to fire - like Neriscyrlas - it's a great thing to use CW. And if you go with a Beckoner who uses his skeletons frequently and who's accompanied by a Priest with Spark the Souls then you might want to add a Wizard with CW, too. Druid with Avenging Storm + dual mortars: same. Missile Salvo: yep.   

Edited May 28, 2020 by Boeroer

[Haplok]

Hmm, I've noticed Moonwell countering several effects (on allies, effectively making aoe-all spells into aoe-enemy only). Not sure which now. Ray of Fire perhaps? Rays in general?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Haplok

[Noqn]

Ok, looked at the decompiled code to confirm, and it seems Hostile effects only clears Non-Hostile effects and vice versa. Makes sense. Could've been made clear in the tutorial page, though...

Sadly, it doesn't always seem to work as intended. Hand of Weal and Woe for example removes hostile Water/Frost effects from enemies, because the part of the beam that triggers the damage effect wasn't correctly set to hostile...

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Tekehu using the Mith Fyr chant (it gets cleared by his godlike passive which makes sense but is also annoying )

Tekehu has complete Immunity to the Fire Keyword which is different from Counters, I think?

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Noqn

[Boeroer]

Not really an immunity afaik. He has a passive that clears fire effects on him periodically - I guess every 3 secs(?). Unfortunately it removes benefical effects, too. I mean it makes total sense so Im not complaining. I was just a bit bummed that I had to find out about that after trying to use Mith Fyr for quite a while and wondered why the f he wouldn't get any burning lash on his attacks althoug he was singing Mith Fyr all the time.

Is suspect he also clears stuff like Flame Shield - but I didn't try. 

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Noqn said:

and it seems Hostile effects only clears Non-Hostile effects and vice versa

is this solely an inconsistency with keyword interactions like fire/water, or is this also implicitly true about antidote v poison and inspirations/afflictions and it's just not noticable because the hostile/non-hostile part is generally correct?

[Noqn]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

is this solely an inconsistency with keyword interactions like fire/water, or is this also implicitly true about antidote v poison and inspirations/afflictions and it's just not noticable because the hostile/non-hostile part is generally correct?

The latter, it's hardcoded. The ClearOpposingKeywords method specifies that the attack and the existing effect must have opposing IsHostile values. 

Inspirations/Afflictions use a different mechanic than Keyword Counters though and are specified in AfflictionTypeComponents: https://eternity.obsidian.net/game-data-formats/components#afflictiontypecomponent

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Not really an immunity afaik. He has a passive that clears fire effects on him periodically - I guess every 3 secs(?). Unfortunately it removes benefical effects, too. I mean it makes total sense so Im not complaining. I was just a bit bummed that I had to find out about that after trying to use Mith Fyr for quite a while and wondered why the f he wouldn't get any burning lash on his attacks althoug he was singing Mith Fyr all the time.

Sorry, I meant that his ability uses the literal Immunity effect with a Fire-only filter to clear the effects, rather than through Keyword Counter I would guess that's why it affects non-hostile effects as well.

[mr_raider]

On 5/27/2020 at 5:35 PM, Boeroer said:

As an SC Wizard you can combine Combusting Wounds with pulsing spells like Chillfog, Freezing Pillar, beams and walls and so on - and minor missiles and blunderbusses, too. The damage output is very good as long as the enemy isn't resistant/immune to burn damage.

Well the good news is respeccing a wizard is much less costly in deadfire than PoE1. The game is more forgiving of experimentation it seems.

 

Ive also gotten decent mileage out of parasitic staff + spirit shield for early trash mobs.

 

Does anyone have a link to the exact stat buffs that are applied by difficulty level? I can see on veteran that enemies are getting an armor and accuracy bonus of 6 I believe. 

[Kaylon]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:44 PM, thelee said:

mm, nope. 

[thelee]

On 5/29/2020 at 10:45 AM, mr_raider said:

Does anyone have a link to the exact stat buffs that are applied by difficulty level? I can see on veteran that enemies are getting an armor and accuracy bonus of 6 I believe. 

it's basically half of POTD.

POTD: +15 enemy accuracy, +15 enemy defenses, +25% health, +2 PEN, +2 AR

Veteran: +7 acc/defenses, +12% health, +1 PEN, +1 AR

 

The encounters in PotD are also beefed up - I don't know the specifics of it.