Politics XXXIV (Politics never changes)

[Guard Dog]

Your government, EVERY government does not love you. They don't even like you. They do not give a f--k about you. They are not here to help you. They will not protect you. Government exists for the sole purpose of self perpetuation. Whatever benefit you think you receive from it is best viewed through the prism of a farmer feeding livestock. Obligated indifference because it doesn't matter if all the cows live as long as enough go to market to pay the bills. Sure the farmer brings the feed and builds the fences. But the feed is only enough to exploit you later and the fences are so the farmer can find you when the time comes to take you to the slaughterhouse. 

The only people in the world who will protect you and yours IS you and yours. Realize that everyone and your years reading my writing on this board will not have been ill spent!

[Maedhros]

The government reflects the people in the country.  You get the government you deserve. If you don't fight for a good government, you won't get it. I agree that it's better to have a "weak" government rather than a strong one if that's the case.

My government doesn't love me, but the opportunities it gives derives from the people. The people here WANT to pay more taxes so that everyone gets the same benefits. Free healthcare, education, longer paid holidays, paid sick leave etc. If any government tried to do something about that, they'd simply lose the next election, which is why the system is intact. Even the rightwingers that has been in power now for a long time know better than to meddle with the system. Which is how it should be - the government should fear its people, not the other way around.

[Skarpen]

6 hours ago, Maedhros said:

The government reflects the people in the country. 

How does having an government agency involved in child trafficking and human rights violations reflects on people of Norway then?

[Guard Dog]

Where did you hear that?

[Maedhros]

1 hour ago, Skarpen said:

How does having an government agency involved in child trafficking and human rights violations reflects on people of Norway then?

I'd imagine it reflects well on a country that it takes children's welfare seriously. There are other things I'm more embarrassed about when it comes to Norway.

The "scandals" have led to huge discussions about how Barnevernet should be reformed, and what can be improved. There's no doubt the children's welfare institution in the country have been understaffed and lacked the competence to do their jobs properly, but the controversy is gonna lead to (hopefully) positive change, without abandoning the principle of prioritizing children's rights. One suggestion is to increase the % (from 8 to 80)of workers with Master's degree, making it obligatory to have competent people working in the sector in the long run. There have been to many social workers without proper education manning the sector.

 

@Guard Dog Long story short...the children's welfare service here have been overly zealous in taking children away from their allegedly abusive parents. Some of the cases have been justified, some have not. Norway has stricter laws than most countries when it comes to a child's welfare (even spanking is illegal here), so that leads to more cases of potential abuse than in other countries. Norway lost several cases in European courts. Half of us think that doesn't matter because we're better equipped to deal with what's right or wrong than a court in Strasbourg, and the other half wants a huge revamp of the sector.

Edit: and just for the record. You won't have your child taken away if you spank them. In 99% of the cases the Children's welfare services offer guidance and help.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Maedhros

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Where did you hear that?

I heard about the child abuses by barnevernet from time to time in the past couple of years, but got interested after they expelled Poland's ambassador for trying to stop them from kidnapping a Polish couple's child. Many immigrants children are being targeted, especially if they look "norwegia" i.e. blond with blue eyes. Barnevernet steals children and give them up to Norwegian families. Gruesome stuff. Glad that European Court of Human Rights took notice.

https://polandin.com/41264188/norwegian-fm-declares-polish-consul-persona-non-grata

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/should-your-kid-be-taken-away-if-they-don-t-like-fish-balls-norway-says-so-31026

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2019/july/norwegian-nightmare-barnevernet-preys-on-children-and-parents-nbsp

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/02/27/norways-government-abducted-children-and-ramifications-for-europe/

https://en.ordoiuris.pl/family-and-marriage/parents-take-norways-barnevernet-european-court-human-rights

https://adfinternational.org/news/top-human-rights-court-rules-norway-violated-law-in-child-welfare-case/

https://www.thelocal.no/20170215/norway-barnevernet-serious-warning-echr-human-rights

  

23 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I'd imagine it reflects well on a country that it takes children's welfare seriously. 

What a joke...

Edited April 3, 2020 by Skarpen

[Hurlshort]

The US is hardly one to judge, given the treatment of refugee and immigrant children in the last decade.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Hurlshot

[Guard Dog]

14 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

The US is hardly one to judge, given the treatment of refugee and immigrant children in the last decade.

I can fix all that right now! People get mad when their tax dollars go to support people who entered the country illegally right? Simple solution: no more taxes. If you don't tax no one's hard earned is wasted giving anyone else a "free ride" or whatever it was they were getting. And without taxes there is no refugee camps, or ICE rounding people up. See how easy that was? I just LOVE when the thorniest problems have simple solutions!

[Elerond]

Before Boy wonder's speech

After Boy wonder's speech

It is nice how you can avoid responsibility with change couple lines text in web page

[ComradeYellow]

9 hours ago, Maedhros said:

The government reflects the people in the country.  You get the government you deserve. If you don't fight for a good government, you won't get it. I agree that it's better to have a "weak" government rather than a strong one if that's the case.

Yet people keep voting for Democrats and Republicans and wonder why we don't have better government.  Stop voting for parties with entrenched corruption and things may improve a little bit.

Edit: To expand on that, I don't think all out Revolution is the answer, there's been enough Revolutions in the modern era, and all have produced lukewarm results.  Voting 3rd parties, at least in America, would be seen as Evolutionary rather than Revolutionary, and I'm more than content with that.  If a successful 3rd party comes around, it would force the other 2 parties to compete, thereby improving things adequately. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[Maedhros]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I heard about the child abuses by barnevernet from time to time in the past couple of years, but got interested after they expelled Poland's ambassador for trying to stop them from kidnapping a Polish couple's child. Many immigrants children are being targeted, especially if they look "norwegia" i.e. blond with blue eyes. Barnevernet steals children and give them up to Norwegian families. Gruesome stuff. Glad that European Court of Human Rights took notice.

Yes...all part of our übermensch-plan. No one can withstand our blonde blue-eyed nation!!

You make it seem like there's this big conspiracy to recruit future "Norwegians", but it's more about people not doing their job properly. There's nothing wrong with the guidelines, or the idea behind Barnevernet - it's just that way too many of the people who work there lack the relevant skills and education to do so. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if barnevernet were more lenient with African immigrants. I often meet attitudes of "they don't know any better, we need to help them" in my line of work when it comes to African parents, while more is expected of our Eastern european immigrants. Maybe that could be how that "we only kidnap Norwegian-looking children" story originated. In any case, conspiracy theories like that are silly.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Maedhros
more words

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

  If a successful 3rd party comes around, it would force the other 2 parties to compete, thereby improving things adequately. 

Completely agree with this!

[Maedhros]

It's kind of weird with the popularity of guys like Sanders and Trump that a representative 3rd party hasn't arrived already. Sanders especially should've started a "Social Democrat" party a long time ago.

[Raithe]

So how accurate would you folks say this is?

[Elerond]

It is quite understandable when you look for example how DNC's and GOP's primaries are tied to local elections  and are organized in many states by state official instead of party official and how they get covered by media.

It is extreme difficult to get elected even on city council as non-establishment candidate in countries where multi party system is part of political establishment, and it is even more difficult in first-past-the-post voting and even more difficult in USA because of how much everything is build around two party system. There is reason why Sander tries to get democratic nomination instead of going as independent candidate.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

50 minutes ago, Raithe said:

So how accurate would you folks say this is?

EDIT: Well aktually...

It's wrong because Canada's constituency is also Corporations, it just has better PR.

Edited April 3, 2020 by KaineParker

[Hurlshort]

42 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

EDIT: Well aktually...

It's wrong because Canada's constituency is also Corporations, it just has better PR.

Tim Hortons and the Maple Syrup Mafia are hard to take seriously as bad guys.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Tim Hortons and the Maple Syrup Mafia are hard to take seriously as bad guys.

I was thinking more of the fossil fuel industry.

[ComradeYellow]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

 There is reason why Sander tries to get democratic nomination instead of going as independent candidate.

Yet look at Trump who is on the other end of the spectrum who "took over" the Republican Party and then won the election then the Party ended up taking over him.  He's doing a great job demonstrating what would happen if Sanders won instead.

Doesn't matter, as long as the 2 Party system remains intact, there will be no structural change, only rhetorical.

As an aside, I'm not a huge Bernie fan, maybe it's the American in me but I'd think if I wanted a Progressive champion he'd have to be jacked on steroids and attract people all over the spectrum, instead of just the fringe.

I got faith

[Elerond]

34 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

As an aside, I'm not a huge Bernie fan, maybe it's the American in me but I'd think if I wanted a Progressive champion he'd have to be jacked on steroids and attract people all over the spectrum, instead of just the fringe.

Funny thing is that he doesn't need to attract people all over the spectrum in case he is selected as democratic candidate, as democratic candidate regardless of anything will win blue states in over 90% probability and lose red states with same probability and in battle ground states it is usually question of tens of thousands voters who decide which party's candidate wins.  And  before current crisis Bernie would had had quite high change to win against Trump in those states , as in those states question isn't usually which candidate success to attract more people but which candidate repels more people from their side.

[ComradeYellow]

My dream candidate would be 3rd party, attract most Independents, half the Democrats, and perhaps some token Republicans.  A very tourquise candidate.  Someone who can effectively push a 3rd Party in there.

[Volourn]

That Kanadian news is beyond FAKE and has so many holes in it. LMAO

Kinda like the myth that Kanada has 'free' health care.

And, unlike the US, our PM *is* no doubt a racist  mocking Indians (both variety), wearing black/brown face, mocking his fellow Kanadians and blaming them for his screw ups.  HAHAHAHAHA

Edited April 4, 2020 by Volourn

[Maedhros]

21 minutes ago, Volourn said:

And, unlike the US, our PM *is* no doubt a racist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump

What doubt? Trump is racist.

[Malcador]

Volourn IS Justin Trudeau, I bet.

[Volourn]

"Some interpreted "

'Nough said.

 

"referred to El Salvador, Haiti, and African countries as "****holes", which was internationally condemned as a racist comment."

Some countries are ****holes. That ain't racist. Hell, many people - including plenty of Amerikans think Amerika is a '****hole'.

 

Trump has said some stuff but that page is a joke base dmore on twisting intepretations as evidenced by the above two 'examples'.

 

Riidculous.

 

PM Blackface LITERALLY wore blackface. Yet people still defend his 'non racism'. Not to mention outright mocking India and trash talking Kanadian natives. LMAO