Politics First Contact

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Trump is privately plotting "vengeance" according to Daily Beast: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-tells-michigan-rally-hes-not-worried-about-impeachment-privately-plots-vengeance

That should be interesting. According to CNN yesterday he's planning on suing Adam Schiff. For what I do not know. I am genuinely curious what a Revenge of the Trump might look like. How much lower can he go?

Let's see if rock bottom has a basement!

Surprised he's not trying to impeach Obama.

[Gromnir]

His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.

well, that was unexpected. Gromnir has been giving evangelical christians a hard time 'bout their near universal support o' trump. have accused such folks o' undeniable hypocrisy and willful obtuseness. am knowing is only a single publication, but is a powerful reminder it is unfair to paint all trumpers with the same brush. change is possible, and for evidence o' such capacity to come as it does, unexpected and forceful from the religious right, is welcome and worthy o' an apology.

am apologizing. we thought, save for a few individual outliers, the religious right were a lost cause for the foreseeable future. we were wrong. christian today has shown moral character and courage. they have put integrity ahead of politics. diogenes would weep with joy at finding an honest face in the crowd.

[Guard Dog]

If you have not read the Washington Post's work on the history and errors of the invasion of Afghanistan you really should. It is worth it to buy a 1 month subscription to get behind the pay wall IMO. Most of it is in the clear though. The Bush, Obama, and Trump admin's have been spectacularly incompetent. And all of it stems from an arrogant and obstinate refusal to try and understand the country they were trying to rebuild. Willful ignorance was the first failure point. There are definite lessons to be learned here but that sad part is they won't be. 

It doesn't have to be this way but it is. The Gulf War and incursions in Grenada and Panama demonstrated lessons learned in Vietnam. A limited and specific objective. More than ample force to achieve that objective. An exit map that is followed after the objective is achieved. Afghanistan & Iraq had none of those things. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Guard Dog
Forgot the link

[Guard Dog]

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.

well, that was unexpected. Gromnir has been giving evangelical christians a hard time 'bout their near universal support o' trump. have accused such folks o' undeniable hypocrisy and willful obtuseness. am knowing is only a single publication, but is a powerful reminder it is unfair to paint all trumpers with the same brush. change is possible, and for evidence o' such capacity to come as it does, unexpected and forceful from the religious right, is welcome and worthy o' an apology.

am apologizing. we thought, save for a few individual outliers, the religious right were a lost cause for the foreseeable future. we were wrong. christian today has shown moral character and courage. they have put integrity ahead of politics. diogenes would weep with joy at finding an honest face in the crowd.

Practicing Christians are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to politics. One one side is a political party that has become openly and unabashedly hostile to them. On the other is a political party that champions their cause while being the the exact opposite of what they believe in. Of all the political alliances that make up the Republican party base this would be the easiest one for the Democrats to break. All that they would have to do is drop the hostility. But they can't.

As an example just look at @Gfted1 comment about Mike Pence last page. As President there is very little Pence could do to integrate his religion into the government. Sure he can talk the talk but there is little he can DO. But that doesn't matter. It's because he THINKS the way he does. Hostility to religion is, in the end, hostility to people who just think differently than you do. It's like the persecution of a thoughcrime for lack of a better word.  And Gfted is no leftwinger by any means. 

If God is not real then God does not become real because people believe God is real. If God is real God does not cease to exist because some people do not believe in God. The separation of state and religion in the country has worked pretty well for the most part. But it was never meant to purge any religious practice from the public eye until recently. And the more zealously it is applied to suppress religious expression the more pushback it gets and the more the people who feel oppressed by it fight back. And that pushes them into strange camps. Like Trump's.

In the end the so called culture war is little more than a bunch of people who have differing opinions about something that cannot be proven one way or the other doing things for the sole purpose of infuriating each other.  And they can't  stop. It's pretty stupid when you think about it. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Pidesco]

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

If you have not read the Washington Post's work on the history and errors of the invasion of Afghanistan you really should. It is worth it to buy a 1 month subscription to get behind the pay wall IMO. Most of it is in the clear though. The Bush, Obama, and Trump admin's have been spectacularly incompetent. And all of it stems from an arrogant and obstinate refusal to try and understand the country they were trying to rebuild. Willful ignorance was the first failure point. There are definite lessons to be learned here but that sad part is they won't be. 

It doesn't have to be this way but it is. The Gulf War and incursions in Grenada and Panama demonstrated lessons learned in Vietnam. A limited and specific objective. More than ample force to achieve that objective. An exit map that is followed after the objective is achieved. Afghanistan & Iraq had none of those things. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/documents-database/

 

This sort of behavior has been going on since forever (or the Truman Doctrine, whichever came first). See Charlie Wilson's War for Afghanistan specifically. Reading See No Evil by Robert Baer is also very enlightening. Generally, the foreign interventions are handled doesn't seem to be to be the fault of any specific administration but rather a consequence of systemic, structural problems in American politics, American military, and American Intelligence Services.

 

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.

well, that was unexpected. Gromnir has been giving evangelical christians a hard time 'bout their near universal support o' trump. have accused such folks o' undeniable hypocrisy and willful obtuseness. am knowing is only a single publication, but is a powerful reminder it is unfair to paint all trumpers with the same brush. change is possible, and for evidence o' such capacity to come as it does, unexpected and forceful from the religious right, is welcome and worthy o' an apology.

am apologizing. we thought, save for a few individual outliers, the religious right were a lost cause for the foreseeable future. we were wrong. christian today has shown moral character and courage. they have put integrity ahead of politics. diogenes would weep with joy at finding an honest face in the crowd.

He has already replied by calling the magazine far left. My eyes just can't stop rolling.

[Guard Dog]

29 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

This sort of behavior has been going on since forever (or the Truman Doctrine, whichever came first). See Charlie Wilson's War for Afghanistan specifically. Reading See No Evil by Robert Baer is also very enlightening. Generally, the foreign interventions are handled doesn't seem to be to be the fault of any specific administration but rather a consequence of systemic, structural problems in American politics, American military, and American Intelligence Services.

The thing that struck me the most was the way status updates to the higher levels are painted in such a way that everything looks like a success. But the upper levels KNEW they were getting bad info because they ordered it that way. I believe it was Mattis who said the whole effort became a "self licking ice cream cone".  The invasion of Iraq was a total unforced error. The invasion of Afghanistan was not. It HAD to be done. The worst response to 9/11 would have been to do nothing. But once the Taliban were defeated and removed from power there was a opportunity to either incorporate them into a new government, or break the country apart altogether and let the individual tribes self govern they way they has before the British. Either would have worked I think. Bush however thought an egalitarian republican country could be built even though there is no history of such nor inclination for such in the people there. He thought the same thing about Iraq. That inside every Iraqi was a little american just waiting to come out. They willfully refused to understand the people they were dealing with. The structural problems are only in the politics. The military and intelligence services perform their functions well. But what is done with those is the failure point. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Guard Dog
spelling

[Gfted1]

55 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

As an example just look at @Gfted1 comment about Mike Pence last page. As President there is very little Pence could do to integrate his religion into the government. Sure he can talk the talk but there is little he can DO. But that doesn't matter. It's because he THINKS the way he does. Hostility to religion is, in the end, hostility to people who just think differently than you do. It's like the persecution of a thoughcrime for lack of a better word.  And Gfted is no leftwinger by any means. 

If God is not real then God does not become real because people believe God is real. If God is real God does not cease to exist because some people do not believe in God. The separation of state and religion in the country has worked pretty well for the most part. But it was never meant to purge any religious practice from the public eye until recently. And the more zealously it is applied to suppress religious expression the more pushback it gets and the more the people who feel oppressed by it fight back. And that pushes them into strange camps. Like Trump's.

In the end the so called culture war is little more than a bunch of people who have differing opinions about something that cannot be proven one way or the other doing things for the sole purpose of infuriating each other.  And they can't  stop. It's pretty stupid when you think about it. 

*squints* not sure if trolling...

My hostility to religion is because they are judgmental pieces of s**t who believe in fairy tales and use that belief to oppress everyone that's not in their camp. I don't cant one bit what anyone "thinks", its what they do. Religion should be outlawed.

[Guard Dog]

25 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

*squints* not sure if trolling...

My hostility to religion is because they are judgmental pieces of s**t who believe in fairy tales and use that belief to oppress everyone that's not in their camp. I don't cant one bit what anyone "thinks", its what they do. Religion should be outlawed.

Thanks for making my point!  Exactly how does that oppression work anyway? 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Guard Dog

[HoonDing]

True story: I was confirmed by a child molester bishop.

Said child molester bishop was never tried or convicted for anything and is now living safely ensconced by the Church in some monastery. And very likely still diddling lil boys everyday.

[Gfted1]

20 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Thanks for making my point!  Exactly how does that oppression work anyway? 

If youre just going to "internet fauxtard" then Ill cut bait here. Are you honestly trying to pretend you don't notice the death and oppression throughout the world which is based on nothing more than fairy tale religions?

[ShadySands]

Regarding Pence and religion, I don't think he has to be able to force his beliefs on us to be bad. I think just trying to push them and directing the national conversation in such a manner is a bad thing.

I also disagree with the that the left is completely hostile to religion as it is comprised of some groups that as a whole tend to be pretty religious and it also comprises more people from non-Christian beliefs. 

Dunno if you saw that 538 article I posted a little while back about Millennials leaving religion and not coming back but it gets into some of the reasons why, though that's not the main point of the article, and how it's Democrats that are mostly not coming back and suggests some reasons behind that.

[Guard Dog]

20 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

If youre just going to "internet fauxtard" then Ill cut bait here. Are you honestly trying to pretend you don't notice the death and oppression throughout the world which is based on nothing more than fairy tale religions?

To tell the truth very little that has been done in the name of religion has ever been done for the sake of religion. Take the Crusades as an example. The Seljuqs had been fighting the Byzantines for over 100 years by the Council of Clermont. They had cut off pilgrimages by Christians to Jerusalem as early as 1065, some thirty years earlier. But no one in Europe gave a s--t until they defeated the Byzantines in Anatolia and cut off the Silk Roads to Asia in 1081. When trade with the far east was cut off THEN it was time to go to war. But how do you get peasants, poor landed knights, and petty kings to fight for Iberian, French, and Italian trade? Get the Pope to say "Deus Vult!" The Crusades were not about God or religion. they were about money. In 1488 Sea routes were found to India and everyone in Europe stopped giving a s--t about who controlled the Holy Land. 

I could go on and on with examples where actions taken in the name of religions had absolutely nothing to do with religion. People are vain, greedy, violent, and altogether nasty critters. If they are not fighting for one reason it's for another but the ends are almost always enrichment of the self or tribe rather than stopping someone else from "thinking wrong". 

The other thing is no one who follows a particular faith owes an apology for the terrible things that were done by other followers of that faith no matter what the reasons were. The average US Muslim has never attacked nor harmed anyone. It's no fault nor business of theirs if someone else does for any reason. The same way you and I don't owe any apologies to descendants of slaves or American Indians or (insert oppressed people here). WE didn't do that. No one alive today in the US ever burned someone at the stake for being a witch. You can't hold things like that against them. 

HoonDing brought up a point about the Catholic Church and covering up all the BS they have. The Church is not a religion. It is not the end all be all of the Christian Faith. The Pope does not "rule the world" in God's name despite the title Vicar of Christ. There is nothing in the Christian faith that says it's OK to rape children or anyone else. The people who practice a faith don't owe an apology for the bad acts of the other people who do. 

Here in the US no one is oppressing you personally is there? If so there are legal remedies for that. You've been talking to me for years and apparently have not been bothered that I am a "judgmental POS that believes in fairy tales".  Or if you are you've been hiding it well.

[Gfted1]

4 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Here in the US no one is oppressing you personally is there? If so there are legal remedies for that. You've been talking to me for years and apparently have not been bothered that I am a "judgmental POS that believes in fairy tales".  Or if you are you've been hiding it well.

You seem bound and determined to become slighted. Whats eating you? And now youre trying to move the goal posts to specifically me? Or only the US? Fine, how about those scumabgs in the Wetsboro church? 

The very book you believe in, in writing, discriminates against same sex unions and EVERYONE not of the same mind as the writings in the book. As do almost all religions. Are you with me so far? All the death and bigotry caused by religion is disgusting, and you can try to couch it as "individuals being individuals", but when your religion teaches you to hate others, the proof is in the results.

[Hurlshort]

It's cool to be anti-religion, but when you say "outlaw religion" you are handing over control to the government. So yeah, stop being a communist. 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Thanks for making my point!  Exactly how does that oppression work anyway? 

had same reaction

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

I don't cant one bit what anyone "thinks", its what they do. Religion should be outlawed.

am suspecting he doesn't even realize the conflict inherent in last two sentences. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

*squints* not sure if trolling...

My hostility to religion is because they are judgmental pieces of s**t who believe in fairy tales and use that belief to oppress everyone that's not in their camp. I don't cant one bit what anyone "thinks", its what they do. Religion should be outlawed.

Well. That just proves what a mistake it was to disband the Inqusition and other military orders of Christianity.

[Gfted1]

@Skarpen  Nah, Christianity is one of the biggest offenders.

[Guard Dog]

18 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

You seem bound and determined to become slighted. Whats eating you? And now youre trying to move the goal posts to specifically me? Or only the US? Fine, how about those scumabgs in the Wetsboro church? 

The very book you believe in, in writing, discriminates against same sex unions and EVERYONE not of the same mind as the writings in the book. As do almost all religions. Are you with me so far? All the death and bigotry caused by religion is disgusting, and you can try to couch it as "individuals being individuals", but when your religion teaches you to hate others, the proof is in the results.

Nah I'm not. Even if you were being insulting I am very seldom slighted by what people say on the internet. And you were not being insulting.  What if the Westboro Church were the Westboro Rotary Club? Or the Westboro Moose Lodge? Or  the Westboro American Legion? Would that make it any better? Of course not. Nor would the mere affiliation by a handful scumbags reflect on the other chapters of that organization.

Now as far as what the bible does or does not say about (insert thing here) that is along conversation that dives way deeper than I care to go. But let me point out that religion, much like a political platform is what you make of it. You can accept or reject any part of it you wish. Practitioners of every faith are not monolithic. You can be baptist and still dance. You can be Catholic and still believe your dog will go to heaven. You can be Muslim and still have a beer. No one is stopping you. No religion that I know of teaches it's practitioners to hate or do violence to anyone. For the most part it's exactly the opposite. If people who call themselves Christian actually read the words of Jesus and tried to follow His example the world would be a better place for it. Not Jesus's fault if they don't.

The only thing I'm trying to do here is get you to think a little bit. You are painting with a pretty broad brush when you talk about the evil of religion and it's deluded followers. Maybe I can get you to put the big brush down for a minute.

There are two thing I absolutely believe about God and religion 

1. There is a God
2. I'm not him

That's why you'd never here me tell you you are going to hell or New York City or somewhere like that because you don't believe. I don't know anything like that. Besides, from what I can tell you are a good guy, you take care of your family, you are respectful to other folks. It does not matter so much whether Gfted1 believes in God as whether God believes in Gfted1. I think you're fine with him. 

[ComradeYellow]

5 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 The invasion of Afghanistan was not. It HAD to be done.

Ok you realize the false flag 9/11 operation was just a pretext to launch the U.S. into unlimited resource grabbing wars in the Middle East, right?

Afghanistan has vast amounts of opium and Lithium.

You don't start wars for any other reason than to make money, and it took a 9/11 to achieve whipping up public opinion to do so.

[Guard Dog]

2 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Ok you realize the false flag 9/11 operation was just a pretext to launch the U.S. into unlimited resource grabbing wars in the Middle East, right?

Afghanistan has vast amounts of opium and Lithium.

You don't start wars for any other reason than to make money, and it took a 9/11 to achieve whipping up public opinion to do so.

[ComradeYellow]

Yes really.  The United States is literally making the exact same mistakes the Soviets made in Afghanistan completely and thoroughly, and the latter lost their empire because of it (well, one of the major reasons anyway).  The U.S. has learned nothing from the S.U.

Edited December 20, 2019 by ComradeMaster

[ComradeYellow]

 

[Gfted1]

Its been a couple of decades, when do the royalties start rolling in?

[ComradeYellow]

2 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Its been a couple of decades, when do the royalties start rolling in?

 

[Gorth]

6 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Ok you realize the false flag 9/11 operation was just a pretext to launch the U.S. into unlimited resource grabbing wars in the Middle East, right?

Afghanistan has vast amounts of opium and Lithium.

You don't start wars for any other reason than to make money, and it took a 9/11 to achieve whipping up public opinion to do so.

I believe you’re subject to “The American” way of thinking Comrade. Europeans don’t need tangible reasons like money to start wars. Sheer stupidity in the form of nationalism and hatred, powered by ignorance, is behind much of the killing there.